Canada's Largest Union Votes to Boycott Israel

[Rue]

Well I guess I must say that you have corrected my spelling but you did understand the meaning which is the whole issue behind communications. So really it is nothning but a barb because you do not like my statements.

I know very well that Jews are not the bankers and the ills of all society. They are though a very closed minded society when things do not go their way. They have been given the land of Israel, only because of a patent on explosives was lifted to help reduce the costs of a war. I guess the fact that the true owners of that land lost their rights during the Crusades and if not for the British taking over from the Arabs, it probably would have still not been given to the Jewish people had there not been the deals made during the war. So for now I will say that the jewish state of Israel has only had its claim to this, as the homeland for the jewish people for only a short time of recent history. The fact that they fight so hard to keep it, probably comes from the fact, that even back in biblical times this land was mostly ruled by those from other lands, and not by the jewish people. This area has so many differnt ethnic origins that it would be hard to say that it was ever a land of only one tribe or people.

The Jewish people of today, do not even slightly ressemble the people of old, and yes years of being on the move and inbreeding with the local populations, and I would hazzard a guess that very little of the original people of Israel are still around.

But that does not excuse them for their own ways and the methods they use to kill people, who they believe are enemies of the state. They are by far worse than any other ruling body the world has known, with the exception of the recent USA and Iraq, and some african dictators. You think that by fighting what I say it will make me give up and therefore quiet the knowledge that the wrongs are now being done by the state of Israel. When really it is in fact true statements, that Israel is now the offender and not the one who needs the help of the world. They are the one that needs to be put down by the world bodies and if this can not be done with words, then yes it will need to be done then by force. As I said before, we made the mistake in not taking Hitler down early in his rise, we should not repeat that again when we see the same things are now being done with Israel.

So you concede not all Jews are bankers. Hmm. Some progress. But man you are still quite the expert on Jews and Jewish history aren't you... Seriously, . you continue to make sweeping statements as to the characteristics of all Jews which necessarily makes your comments bigoted ad defective. The fact that you continue to repeat your original statements and then try justify them by simply raising new stereotypical sweeping generalizations renders futher discourse on your description of Jewish characteristics probably pointless. The sad thing for me is, you will continue to make sweeping statements about Jews and think you are on expert on them. I am not sure what would happen, but may I suggest you try sit down with a Jew and without making sweeping generalizations ask them questions and talk to them. You might see that they are no different then you and your subjective generalizations that all Jews are closed minded is no different then me saying all white Christians are anti-semites.. or all Arabs hate Jews or all Jews or Israelis hate Arabs or Muslims.

One last thing, your simplistic description of the history of Judaism to make the sweeping comments you did missed the point but unintentionally made another. The fact is even using your defective rendition of Jewish history, and using your words, then it would logically flow that Jews and Jewish civilization preceded Christian and Muslim civilizations and therefore necessarily their rights preceded Christian and Muslim rights. You probably don't realize the absurdity in your statements. The point is we can trace back history to compare whose rights came first then what?

The point is a solution has to be created that can accommodate all peoples. Your simplistic depiction of Israel as the bad guy is laughable. Then again you have probably grown up in a generation where life is seen as a World Wrestling Federation match with a good guy and bad guy and that is probably all you can handle at this point. Can you understand me if I tell you neither Palestinians or Israelis are to blame-they are both equally as victimized in this conflict? Is that too confusing to you? Does that sort of do a number on your hatred for Jews and your lack of understanding of Jewish history and Israeli foreign policy and military policy?

Hey late me know when you complete your doctorate on Jews and their characteristics. I suspect I might run into one and will need your insights.

[August1991]

More to the point, why are you and your union making such pronouncements?

Since when is it a union's role to become a source of righteousness and make pronouncements on international conflicts?

What does it achieve?

These questions get to the heart of CUPE's decsion.

It is true that some unions (unwisely IMV) take positions on questions not directly related to union business. They should avoid at all costs taking a position on a controversial issue of general irrelevance to union members.

It seems clear to me that a small group of senior union activists are using the union to advance a personal cause. Unions are not well-served when they become personal fiefdoms.

Scriblett, thanks for the link to the Isareli ambassador's article. He rightly hits CUPE on the soft side of all unions: expressions of international solidarity between unions.

[Black Dog]

1-you have a selective memory of Christians and their use of political states to impose their religion on the masses and their continuing to use political states to impose their religion;

2-you have a selective memory as to the fact that in the entire Muslim world, dhimmitude has been practiced since the beginning of Islam-I suggest you read up about it because if you did you would not be so quick to make such analogies and you would understand that for any Muslim nation to criticize Israel for being secular, they had better be prepared to abandon their own secularity otherwise it is the hight of hippocracy suggesting Israel's desire to be a Jewish nation is any different then all the Muslim nations who wish to be Muslim nations or for that matter all the Christian nations which still fail to seperate state from Church;

What makes you think I support any state religion or religious state? I don't. But then, few if any Muslim states are also claimuing to be liberal democracies. It's not hard to figure out: liberal democracy is incopatiable wih policies that explicity favour one race or ethnicity.

3-you probably do not understand Jewish religion and the origins of the connection of Jews to the nation of Israel - its based on a religious belief of a covenant from God not on the concept that Jews are better then others and want to be better then them;

I understand. I just don't care. Whether based on a belief in racial superiority or on theological persumptions, such discrimination is unjustified.

4-you make sweeping statements as to how non Jews are treated in Israel but the point is and you missed it- not one Arab nation entrenches in its constitution equality for Jews or Christians or non Muslims-you really should read up on Israel's constitution, laws, and court decisions entrenching and enforcing the rights of non Jewish Israelis before you make such statements.

Actually, how Jews Xtians or anyone else is treated in Muslim countries is very much beside the point.

I love the people that point the finger at Israel and suggest it discriminates. They should look at how we deal with our own aboriginals and our own problems with how we have handled treatment of our Chinese and Indian immigrants and the head tax, our internment of Japanese, Italians and Germans, etc. We should look at how Canada refused to take in Jewish refugees during World War Two because McKenzie King was a raving anti-semite and how our major cities, particularly Toronto practiced open apartheid and racial and religious segregation even until the early 60's. Sometimes we have selective memories. Then again many of the people pointing the finger at Israel are Christians who take for granted their majority status. As well many persons from Asia and Africa have come from developing countries where they have been taught Israel and Jews are evil. The Protocols of Zion are still widely presented as truth throughout many Asian nations and the Middle East.

Let me get this straight: do the realities of discrimination or oppression historical or contemporary, in Canada or anywhere else, absolve Israel of any actions? Essentially, do two (or any numbe rof) wrongs make a right?

[fixer1]

So why would anyone be upset that a union here in Canada voices its opinion against the Isreali people and all of its current policies on the palestinian people. It is not something that we all can not see for our selves and it is only that now that this is done it will draw more attention to what many would like to just flow away without notice. I do think that this is something that does need attention and so I agree with the union or any other group who are willing to take an honest look and give an honest opinion.

It is impossible to have an "honest" look at anything when one is wrapped in ignorance. You are clearly almost entirely ignorant about everything to do with Israel, the middle east, and the history there. I suggest you go play somewhere while adults talk.

Argus you are nothing but a self centered ignorant bully who needs to be behind the key board to feel like he has balls. You think you are what superior to anyone. I would love to meet ypu in person just so I can be sure to put the face of the whiney little person I have in mind now to the actual thing. Do not ever dis me or anyone like that ever again, because you do not know who or what you are dealing with, and that may surprise you one day.

If you want to disagree with someone fine. But what you did was not even close to the rules here, and if you did that on any site where I have been a moderator you would have been banned by now. So you go play your games, but you are the one who should be ashamed. I have a feeling you are jewish and if so then I wonder why I may have the thought that jewish people are a problem. Not all just enough to spoil the barrel.

[August1991]

Fixer, Argus' comment was uncalled for but your response is just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. Forget it, and move on. Play the ball, not the player. Drop the ad hominen attacks. Drive for show and putt for dough. (I'm running out of metaphors here... )

----

Sharansky in the G & M weighs in:

During the nine long years that I sat in Soviet prisons -- a prisoner of conscience, punished for my human-rights advocacy and desire to emigrate to Israel -- I drew encouragement from the fact that well-meaning people across the globe were demonstrating and advocating for my release and for the human rights of all Soviet dissidents. Canadians were among the leaders of this campaign.

Indeed, in the decade since my release and immigration to Israel, Canadians have been key partners and leaders in global human-rights campaigns that I have waged, and in my efforts to promote democratic reforms in the Middle East. In these battles, I have come to appreciate that a passion for human rights, belief in the innate goodness of man, penchant for fairness and balance in international affairs, and commitment to democracy are qualities quintessentially "Canadian."

Needless to say, I was shocked and saddened -- and deeply offended -- to learn that the Ontario branch of a Canadian union, the Canadian Union of Public Employees, has called for an international campaign to boycott and sanction Israel until it "meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination" and it allows Palestinian refugees a so-called right of return to Israel.

....

In this sad situation, Western governments, including Canada's, have rightly declared a moratorium on international funding for the Palestinian government. We need stability and responsibility from the Palestinians if there is to be any chance for peace in the region.

Link

However one feels about this issue (and I don't recall much opposition to our federal government's decision to stop funding the Palestinian Authority), I really don't think CUPE should have gotten involved.

The fact that the policy was apparently decided by the unanimous vote of some 800 union activists suggests to me that this was no democratic vote at all.

[Argus]

So why would anyone be upset that a union here in Canada voices its opinion against the Isreali people and all of its current policies on the palestinian people. It is not something that we all can not see for our selves and it is only that now that this is done it will draw more attention to what many would like to just flow away without notice. I do think that this is something that does need attention and so I agree with the union or any other group who are willing to take an honest look and give an honest opinion.

It is impossible to have an "honest" look at anything when one is wrapped in ignorance. You are clearly almost entirely ignorant about everything to do with Israel, the middle east, and the history there. I suggest you go play somewhere while adults talk.

Argus you are nothing but a self centered ignorant bully who needs to be behind the key board to feel like he has balls.

Nonsense. I can reach down and feel my balls any time I like! I invite you to do the same!

You think you are what superior to anyone.

Not at all, just you.

I would love to meet ypu in person just so I can be sure to put the face of the whiney little person I have in mind now to the actual thing. Do not ever dis me or anyone like that ever again, because you do not know who or what you are dealing with, and that may surprise you one day.

Are you suggesting that in addition to being ignorant and loud in proclaiming it, you're violently psychotic too? Indeed, that would cause me to put much more respect to your opinions than, say, evidence of knowledge about what you're talking about.

If you want to disagree with someone fine. But what you did was not even close to the rules here, and if you did that on any site where I have been a moderator you would have been banned by now.

You moderate sites? Let me guess... dungeons and dragons? You expressed a ridiculously ignorant and bigoted opinion about Israelis and tried to pretend this wasn't ignorant and bigoted. Sorry, I don't buy it.

So you go play your games, but you are the one who should be ashamed. I have a feeling you are jewish and if so then I wonder why I may have the thought that jewish people are a problem. Not all just enough to spoil the barrel.

Yes, that's right, I must be a big bad, nasty Jew to treat you so poorly. Nah, no ignorance or bigotry there.

[Temagami Scourge]

. I can reach down and feel my balls any time I like! I invite you to do the same!

Fixer...I'm of the impression that they are in his mouth more often than not. Don't encourage him.

On the other hand, I hink it is a bad move on CUPE's part to take sides in the conflict. What's worse is that it looks increasingly like the Palestinians are on the verge of a civil war. Admonishment is one thing, but outright support is another.

[Rue]

Allow me to respond to Black Dog;

1-You have made reference to the fact that in regards to the historical perspective in the Middle East in regards to "stolen land" its not relevant because you infer Israel stole land from Palestinians-this is a position that is defective-the point is how far back do you go in history to determine who has the superior right to this land-because if you do, Jews established a valid legal right to the same land Palestinians now feel is exclusively there land and that is the crux of the issue-you unfortunately are selective and merely point out that Israel took land from the Palestinians because you are being selective and do not care to actually trace back history and understand it was at one point taken from Jews and they were expelled and now simply have returned to where they had ancient roots and were expelled from-your position completely ignores the history of Jews and their connection to the land-more to the point, the point that was originally made to you escaped you, that no one has a monopoly for portraying themselves as having the land in the Middle East taken away from them it is not and has never been a position unique to Palestinians but as long as you select the history you want to use to base your position and isolate it to say 1920 to today, we will get your selective and therefore distorted perspective;

2-You keep referring to Israel as oppressors-this again is a typically selective perspective and one which sees right and wrong and a good guy and a bad guy-this is precisely the kind of simplistic analysis that again renders what you are saying trite-the fact is Arabs have oppressed each other in Palestine and the rest of the world and Middle East for a longer period of time then the historic period between 1949 and today. Of course if you choose to be selective, you can completely ignore the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab world where they have always been treated as second class citizens and discriminated against-Israel the horrible oppressor but let us not mention how Yasir Arafat and an umbrella group of approximately 130 organizations exploited their people, sole their international relief money and placed it in Swiss bank accounts and engaged in terror against Palestinians who would not work for hash hish and drug cartels they owned. Arafat was the oppressed hero. Let's revise history and forget he started as a drug cartel operator trying to secure his export of hash hish. Let us also be selective and ignore what happened with the Palestinians in all the countries they have been in that are Muslim. The facts speak for themselves. Israel has engaged in some questionable treatment of Palestinians no doubt. But it is not isolated to the Israel Defence Force and in fact Israel's behaviour is absolutely no different then how Jordanian, Syrian, Egyptian, Tunisian, and Saudi Arabian police forces and military have treated them. However I suppose in your world of good and bad you like to be selective and suggest Israel is the only country struggling to deal with the Palestinians and where they should live. You can also be selective and ignore the fact that the Arab League has always had the financial resources and land to have taken in displaced Palestinians but has refused. Yah I know its all Israel's fault. Other Arabs don't discriminate or hate Palestinians. It's one big happy family.

3-You made the statement that you do not have to benefit from hard work to benefit from Zionist policies. That to me in a nut-shell summarizes much of my problem with your comments. It is subjective and based on the misconception of what Zionism is and the fact that you have never been to Israel but talk as if you are an expert on Israeli society. Perhaps you should travel there and see what it is really like for if you did you would not make such comments. The fact is there is a law of return that gives automatic citizenship to Jews if they choose to go to Israel but that is where the so called Zionist policies you referred to end. The sweeping generalization and inference you made as to special treatment is ridiculous. Jews in Israel suffer the same hardships as non Jews in terms of taxes, unemployment and everything else. You have this naive concept that Israel provides a Utopia to Jews. It's a poor nation with an extremely high tax rate and the average Israeli is not rich and lives in basic standards. In fact I would think you live better then the average Israeli if you are a Canadian. As well to suggest you can be as you are inferring lazy and cruise through life in Israel as long as you are Jewish is odious. Before making such malicious statements you should make a serious effort to try understand what a real day is like in a typical Israeli Jew's life before you make such generalizations. If I turned that around and said the same thing about blacks in an African country or Christian white people in Canada how do you think that would be perceived? Those damn blacks in Zimbabwe. Mugabe gives them everything. Its down right ignorant let alone anti-semetic to generalize an entire nation of people and suggest because they are Jews and live in Israel they can be lazy.

4-You made some statement to the effect that African states have only been around recently so they can not be expected to be perfect at this point-and yet you do what most people using your arguements do-expect a double standard with Israel-your double standard comes from the racist concept that Jews can be held to a higher standard because they should know better because of the holocaust-read back your comments on the holocaust-that is the logical conclusion to what you stated in regards to the holocaust and its relation to Israel when discussing oppression-this notion that Israel is expected to exhibit a higher standard because of the holocaust is racist-its like telling someone who is raped they can should know better and should never hit back at anyone if they feel threatened. It attempts to revictimize Israelis and tell them they do not have the right to self defense because they should know better. Since Germans once gassed their relatives they now can't defend themselves if terrorists attack. I say this because people like you when they make their sweeping generalizations about Israel never at any time attempt to define what they mean by oppression. You use it in a sweeping, general imprecise context and do not differentiate legitimate acts of self-defense from the same kind of phenomena that has happened to any conventional army when it is sent in to civilian sites to quell violence. Of course when African soldiers commit autrocities on their fellow citizens we dismiss that as simply them being in the early stages of their existence and trying to sort things out. Yes that's it. Robert Mugabe is simply a temporary phenomena to be overcome. Israel on the other hand is expected to sit back and not defend itself against terrorism because you sitting in the luxury of your security and comfort in Canada feel if it defends itself, that is oppression.

Oppression? Tell that to innocent civilians who simply want to be left alone and live in peace but have to live with people blowing up bombs in front of their faces. Of course you sitting on your safe cushy self-righteous seat have never been to Israel and had limbs and stomach matter explode all over your face.

The point is there have been unfortunate deaths of both Palestinians and Israelis. Stop selecting and stop simply pointing to Israelis. Every time you do so you show you have taken one side of the debate and by doing so you render your perspective meaningless. A death is death. Palestinians and Israelis suffer equally. That is the point and the only point and your portraying one side as good and the other as the victim is the stuff we expect from kids reading fairy tales before they grow up to deal with the real world.

5-I also note you stated Muslim countries do not claim to be Liberal democracies and besides how Muslim countries treat Jews is not the point.

Talk about selectivity. First of all let's get it straight-when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian debate what the vast majority of the Muslim world has done is to say the Jews should go back to Europe where they came from.

Then in the next breath they argue the classic arguement that Mummar Ghaddafi loves to present-we do not hate Jews, we just hate Zionists. We want to live in a democractic state with the Jews but they insist on it being a Jewish state. That Sir is the point. The Muslim world has stated they want to live in a state with Jews and that Sir is precisely why this issue is raised. Because how do you take Muslim countries and their leaders seriously when they make such statements and then in the next breath state Jews should be sent back to Europe. How do you take this seriously when Muslim nations practice dhimmitude not that you know what that is. The track record of how non Muslims are treated in Muslim countries is precisely the point when anyone suggests Muslims simply want to live with Jews. You have to understand the real track record and what it means to have lived as a Jew in the Muslim world to understand they do claim to be democratic as an arguement against Zionism. You Sir, seem to have selectively forgotten the democractic state of Jews and Muslims Nasser proposed, Arafat proposed, Ghaddafi proposed.

6-You made a tell tale statement which says it all. You made the aside that you don't care about Jewish religion and then went on to suggest you don't care about it since Jews discriminate against Arabs. That is precisely the closed minded, intolerant, anti-semetic bull shit that Jews have to put up with. You basically are proud of your lack of caring and then make a false statement that the religion discriminates precisely because you won't take the time to care and to try understand the nature of Judaism. That Sir, that lack of caring and making sweeping generalizations that Judaism and Zionism discriminate are by their very nature anti-semetic. It is a classic case of being proud to be ignorant and then justifying that ignorance to make a sweeping statement.

The fact is Sir, if you ever bothered to open your closed mind and try understand Jewish theology you would realize their connection to the land of Israel is a spiritual one and one based on the belief that God promised them the land and that they could live there. The connection to the land is the very essence of being a Jew. A Jew can not exist without a connection to this land.

Christians and Muslims on the other hand do not have such an equivalent in their religions. Christians take for granted owning land. Each country they have lived in the state was Christrian and discriminated in favour of Christians and prevented Jews (Muslims, Gypsies) from owning land. And yet today we now have the same ancestors of these people who refused to allow Jews the right to own land, now tell them once again they are not allowed to own land and have a special connection to it. Guess what. That message from the Christian Western world is the biggest crock of hippocracy next to telling aboriginals they have no rights.

Secondly the Muslim religion specifically states Jews are not allowed to own land in Muslim countries and are to have second class rights. They can not practice their religion in public. They must not build places of worship bigger or taller then mosques. These non jews can not inter-marry, touch Muslims, or engage in direct business with them unless its to sell. Jews can not get jobs in government and are

forced to live in segregated ghettoes. That is the ones still in the Arab world since the majority were exterminated by Mukbarrat the secret police in these countries.

So do me a favour. Before you say you don't care about the Jewish religion and make sweeping statements that it discriminates since it feels there is a spiritual connection between Jews and God and the land-save such rudamentary anti-semetism and take a look at Christianity and Islam and other world religions and their view of the state and land. Stop being selective.

The point is Israel has tried more so then any other nation in the world to treat its non Jews with respect. Yes the point is you show me another country faced with extermination that offers its non Jewish citizens who are of the same religion and ethnicity as the groups threatening to exterminate them the same rights. Oh I know you don't think its relevant but it is specifically because you suggest Israel discriminates. It guarantees the right for Arabs to speak Arabic as an official language. it guarantees the rights of Arab Israelis to seats in Parliament and its courts have enforced orders protecting Arab Israeli land rights against Jewish Israeli land rights. Now you want to point fingers, tell me how the West dealt with the Japanese, Italians and Germans during world war two. Tell me how the West dealt with its Jews. Tell me how the West deals today with its Jews. Please be careful who you lecture on discrimination. Jews need no lectures from anyone on what it is like to be discriminated against and if they today discriminate, the discrimination is not simply a result of lazy Jews beging given superior rights-its about two people crowded ina tiny land and rampant terrorism making it difficult if not impossible not to discriminate against innocent Arab Israelis or for that matter Palestinians or Israelis caught in the cross fire. Everyone suffers when security must be placed paramount over individual rights. You think we are in a play land here? You think you can simply say to Arab Israelis-no problem...you speak Arabic, you look Arabic, but you know what, we won't sometimes stop and ask you for i.d. because oopsy it might hurt your feelings. Grow up. This is not a young black man being stopped in Toronto by a cop late at night because he is driving a flashy car. Its a kind of discrimination brought on by desperation. Here in Canada it happens in a different context and yet from your kind of comments and inferences it would appear you just got it all figured out and its as simple as good guy picking on bad guy. The have and the have nots. The Israelis got it all and the Palestinians got nothing.

Finally you stated that even if other countries have done bad things, how does that absolve Israel? That is not the point of why people defending Israel bring it up. Defenders of Israel bring it up because they believe there is a ridiculous double standard and you for sure have exhibited it in your comments when you say African countries are emerging as an excuse for their autrocities but when you perceive Israel to f..ck up its not the same since they should know better and more to the point, they better not remind the world they came to Israel because of the holocaust cuz golly gee wiz that's n ot fair and we are sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust.

The point is if Israel is held to the same standard as everyone else it is no better or worse then anyone else.

Who lectures Israel on its wrong doings with a clean track record? Name me one country that points the finger has not discriminated and engaged in massacres, etc.

Does it absolve Israel, no. But it certainly does not permit you to selectively isolate Israel and suggest they can not suffer from the same problems every other nation has. That is the point. But I know, you don't care about it. Israel discriminates and that is all there is to it.

[fixer1]

Well Argus

You are just a coward. I will put it to you this way. I will do my best to find out who you are and where you are, and absent of your being in the USA where I am not allowed, I will come and see you and pay my deepest respects to you and anyone near you. You have a nice day, and by all means keep your attitude. I will ajust it later when we meet. Thank you for making my day.

[Black Dog]

-you have made reference to the fact that in regards to the historical perspective in the Middle East in regards to "stolen land" its not relevant because you infer Israel stole land from Palestinians-this is a position that is defective-the point is how far back do you go in history to determine who has the superior right to this land-because if you do, Jews established a valid legal right to the same land Palestinians now feel is exclusively there land and that is the crux of the issue-you unfortunately are selective and merely point out that Israel took land from the Palestinians because you are being selective and do not care to actually trace back history and understand it was at one point taken from Jews and they were expelled and now simply have returned to where they had ancient roots and were expelled from-your position completely ignores the history of Jews and their connection to the land-more to the point, the point that was originally made to you escaped you, that no one has a monopoly for portraying themselves as having the land in the Middle East taken away from them it is not and has never been a position unique to Palestinians but as long as you select the history you want to use to base your position and isolate it to say 1920 to today, we will get your distorted perspective and I would suggest your perspective is distorted precisely because you either choose to ignore history;

First: try using multiple sentences

Second: I have no doubt that, at some point in history, the area now called Israel was home to a large number of monotheistic Semetic people. Let's call them Jews. Now, before the Jews came along, that land was occupied by somebody else. As history turned, other people came and went. Romans, Muslims, Christian Crusaders all held dominion over the land at one point or another. very interesting and ultimately meaningless. That the Jewish people believe that they are entitled to the land by virtue of some distant ancestral connection to the area is irrelevant. Indeed, using the same reasoning that grants Jews the "right of return" to an area they populated a thousand years ago, you could make a strong case for the right of Palestinian Arabs to return to their homeland of only 60 years ago.

you keep referring to Israel as oppressors-this again is a typically selective perspective and one which sees right and wrong and a good guy and a bad guy-this is precisely the kind of simplistic analysis that again renders what you are saying trite-the fact is Arabs have oppressed each other in Palestine and the rest of the world and Middle East for a longer period of time then the historic period between 1949 and today. Of course if you choose to be selective, you can completely ignore the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab world where they have always been treated as second class citizens and discriminated against-Israel the horrible oppressor but let us not mention how Yasir Arafat and an umbrella group of approximately 130 organizations exploited their people, took money to provide them relief and placed it in Swiss bank accounts and engaged in terror against Palestinians who would not work for hash hish and drug cartels. Let us also be selective and ignore What happened with the Palestinians in all the countries they have been in that are Muslim.

Wicked non sequitur, dude. Unless you're saying the fact some people somewhere else treat other people badly gives Israel carte blanche to do as it wishes to the Palestinians, I don't see what your point is. We all know there's some nasty regimes in the area. The tragedy of Israel, IMO, is that it's crimes occur within a nominally liberal-democratic framework. I expect better of them than I do of the thugs in Cairo or Damauscus.

you made some statement to the effect that African states have only been around recently so they can not be expected to be perfect at this point-and yet you do what most people using your arguements do-expect a double standard with Israel-your double standard comes from the racist concept that Jews can be held to a higher standard because they should no better because of the holocaust-read back your comments on the holocaust-that is the logical conclusion to what you stated in regards to the holocaust and its relation to Israel when discussing oppression-this notion that Israel is expected to exhibit a higher standard because of the holocaust is racist-its like telling someone who is raped they can should know better and should never hit back at anyone if they feel threatened.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have no idea what you're talking about. As near as I can tell, you're telling me its racist to expect Jews, as a result of historical oppression, to be more senstive to oppression. Should I be expecting them to act more like Nazis? As for your analogy, it's more like telling someone who was raped not to go out and rape someone.

-You made the statement that you do not have to benefit from hard workl to benefit from Zionist policies. That to me in a nut-shell summarizes much of my problem with your comments. It is subjective and based on the misconception of what Zionism is and the fact that you have never been to Israel but talk as if you are an expert on Israeli society. Perhaps you should travel there and see what it is really like for if you did you would not make such comments. The fact is there is a law of return that gives automatic citizenship to Jews if they choose to go to Israel but that is where the so called Zionist policies you referred to end with the sweeping generalization and inference you made as to special treatment. Jews in Israel suffer the same hardships as non Jews in terms of taxes, unemployment and everything else. You have this naive concept that Israel provides benefits to Jews. Its a poor nation with an extremely high tax rate and the average Israeli is not rich and lives in basic standards. In fact I would think you live better then the average Israeli if you are a Canadian. As well to suggest you can be as you are inferring lazy and cruise through life in Israel as long as you are Jewish is silly. Rather than waste my breath further, make a serious effort to try understand what a real day is in a typical Israeli Jew's life before you make such generalizations because they are ignorant and by nature racist-they are racist because you are making value statements and characterizations as to your perception of the abilities of all Israelis-if I turned that around and said the same thing about blacks in an African country or Christian white people in Canada you would be the first to complain

I posted an article from the Guardian that detailed some of the day-to-day policies that favour Jews over non-Jews in particular in areas such as development and infrastructure. While I'm sure Israeli Jews face many of the same day to day struggles as we do, the Jewish state is designed to favour Jews. This shouldn't be a shock, nor is it racist (for the record, where did I say Israeli Jews "coast along"? I stated that the single requirement for a non-Israeli Jew to becoem a citizen is to be Jewish. Which is true.)

Israel on the other hand is expected to sit back and not defend itself against terrorism because you sitting in the luxury of your security and comfort in Canada feel if it defends itself, that is oppression.

I've no problem with Israel defending its people from terrorism (though I'd quibble over the efficiency of their methods). I just don't see how grabbing land, bulldozing homes and orchards, and generally making life miserable for the people they share the land with is related to fighting terror.

The point is there have been unfortunate deaths of both Palestinians and Israelis. Stop selecting and stop simply pointing to Israelis. Every time you do so you show you have taken one side of the debate and by doing so you render your perspective meaningless. A death is death. Palestinians and Israelis suffer equally. That is the point and the only point and your portraying one side as good and the other as the victim is the stuff we expect from kids reading fairy tales before they grow up to deal with the real world.

Except the suffering is not equal. Palestinians are far worse off for a number of reasons, the bulk of which are directley related to Israel's military occupation. And I find it ironic (in an Alanis way) that you'd lecture me about painting one side as a victim when you and other Israel apologists consistently try to paint the country with the biggest military and the most support from the wealthy west, the country that holds all the cards in this conflict, as the weak party.

Then in the next breath they argue the classic arguement that Mummar Ghaddafi loves to present-we do not hate Jews, we just hate Zionists. We want to live in a democractic state with the Jews but they insist on it being a Jewish state. That Sir is the point. The Muslim world has stated they want to live in a state with Jews and that Sir is precisely why this issue is raised. Because how do you take Muslim countries and their leaders seriously when they make such statements and then in the next breath state Jews should be sent back to Europe. How do you take this seriously when Muslim nations practice dhimmitude not that you know what that is. The track record of how non Muslims are treated in Muslim countries is precisely on the point when anyone suggests Muslims simply want to live with Jews. You have to understand the real track record and what it means to have lived as a Jew in the Muslim world to understand they do claim to be democratic as an arguement against Zionism. You Sir, seem to have selectively forgotten the democractic state of Jews and Muslims Nasser proposed, Arafat proposed, Ghaddafi proposed.

Again: the collective guilt of all Arabs cannot be based on acts by some Arab states; Zionists cannot

justify their initial expulsion of Palestinians and the continued oppression thereof because some Arab states carried out repressive policies against Jews.

Finally you made a tell tale statement which says it all. You made the aside that you don't care about Jewish religion and then went on to suggest you don't care about it since Jews discriminate against Arabs. That is precisely the closed minded, intolerant, anti-semetic bull shit that Jews have to put up with. You basically are proud of your lack of caring and then make a false statement that the religion discriminates precisely because you won't take the time to care and to try understand the nature of Judaism. That Sir, that lack of caring and making sweeping generalizations that Judaism and Zionism discriminate are by their very nature anti-semetic. It is a classic case of being proud to be ignorant and then justifying that ignorance to make a sweeping statement.

I think I'm being called an anti-Semite here, which would be offensive if the accusation was made in a coherent fashion.

Let me break it down for you:

1) When I said "I don't care" etc., I was talking about the idea that Jews believe they are entitled to the land because God said so. I find the very idea of some divine mandate to be absolutely perposterous.

2) Are you denying that this belief in the divine right of Jews to occupy the land has not resulted in discrimination or oppresson?

The fact is Sir, if you ever bothered to open your closed mind and try understand Jewish theology you would realize their connection to the land of Israel is a spiritual one and one based on the belief that God promised them the land and that they could live there. The connection to the land is the very essence of being a Jew. A Jew can not exist without a connection to this land.

Hey, good for them. But if I go to your house, kick you into the street and take up residence there because my personal sky-pixie told me it was my right, you'd probably be peeved, and rightly so.

I'm not sure what part of: "I don't... support any state religion or religious state" don't you understand?

Who lectures Israel on its wrong doings with a clean track record? Name me one country that points the finger has not discriminated and engaged in massacres, etc.

Well shit, if that's the way it is we might as well all just pack it in and go home. I mean, we sure can't tell others how to treat people after what we did to the Indians! (Of course, that kinda falls apart when you yourself are quick to criticize Muslim countries, for example: what gives you the right?)

Here's the thing: I don't tolerate inhumanity or injustice anywhere. You show me a petition decrying Iran's anti-Semetism, I'll sign it. Marching for women's rights in Saudi Arabia? I'll be there. We can all agree there's a lot of shitholes in the world. Why Israel? Lot of reasons. It's democracy that doesn't always act like one. It's a state founded by a people who've borne horrible oppression that is oppressing others. It's a friend of the west, which makes us complicit in their crimes. It's a microcosm of the greater conflicts between east and west, moderinity and tradition, democracy versus theocracy and a lynchpin of many of the issues we're facing today (ie. Islamic radicalism and terrorism). That and more puts the focus on Israel and magnifies the conflict.

[Leafless]

This thread is going nowhere.

CUPE is getting nervous and could be concerning Israeli's political positon also with Canada's militant federal socialistic leanings (Charter of Rights and Freedoms) being not compatiable with Israeli apartheid policies.

The Ontario branch of CUPE has 210,000 members ( half of all Canada) with major sector public sector unions with one union that has $40-Billion invested in Israeli bonds and such.

The suggested boycotts one targetting university profesors and the other calling for economic divestment.

http://www.forward.com/articles/7880

[mcqueen625]

Isreal has been a terrorist stae towards Palestine for many years now. They attack and kill with impunity and the world bodies have done little to stop it. If a public union can start a small but growing sentiment showing Isreal for what it really is, then I have no problems with it. I only wish Canada as a country would also come out and cry foul when events by Isreal happen. Enough of the sympathy for the holocast. Now it is Isreal who is the offender and they are being worse then Hitler about it. Just as Hitler should havebeen stopped much earlier then he was, so should Isreal.

Again, what about Palistinian suicide bomber who walk into a crowded market and blow themselves up with the sole purpose of killing as many innocent civilians as possible. Give your head a shake and wake up. From what I have read in most cases it is Israelis are simply defending themselves from a bunch of terrrorists who's only goal in life is the complete anihilation of Israel. Hamas and Iran, have a stated goal of denying Israel's right to exist. If I were a member of CUPE I would be actively working towards decertification of my particular Local. I'm quite sure this measure does not represent the wishes of the vast majority of CUPE.

God knows CUPE is certainly a failure at negotiating contracts, and is an utter failure in their ability to defend their own members, so let's throw a little water on the fire to create some smoke, and just maybe the membership won't realize that the union they are paying dues to has stopped representing the membership and is now taking up the cause of terrorist organizations.

Instead of worrying about people half-way around the world, CUPE should instead be worrying about the plight of homeless Canadians, and the many Canadian children going to bed every night hungry, because the social safety-net is failing them.

[Argus]

Well Argus

You are just a coward. I will put it to you this way. I will do my best to find out who you are and where you are, and absent of your being in the USA where I am not allowed, I will come and see you and pay my deepest respects to you and anyone near you. You have a nice day, and by all means keep your attitude. I will ajust it later when we meet. Thank you for making my day.

Let me get this straight: You want to travel across the country to attack me, and apparently anyone in my immediate proximity, because I called your opinions about Jews ignorant? I'm guessing you must have a really long hit list.

I'm sorry you went nuts over this. Looking over your previous postings I find I agree with you on just about everything. Your opinions of Israelis and Jews, however, are quite simply ignorant. I admit I could have stated that more kindly, and now wish I had. However, you will likely be banned for this silly post, and deserve to be. I will not, however, call the cops. You've posted more than sufficient personal information in previous threads to find you fairly easily should they so desire, but I don't believe you deserve that for blowing your top and saying something stupid.

[Argus]

Second: I have no doubt that, at some point in history, the area now called Israel was home to a large number of monotheistic Semetic people. Let's call them Jews. Now, before the Jews came along, that land was occupied by somebody else. As history turned, other people came and went. Romans, Muslims, Christian Crusaders all held dominion over the land at one point or another. very interesting and ultimately meaningless. That the Jewish people believe that they are entitled to the land by virtue of some distant ancestral connection to the area is irrelevant. Indeed, using the same reasoning that grants Jews the "right of return" to an area they populated a thousand years ago, you could make a strong case for the right of Palestinian Arabs to return to their homeland of only 60 years ago.

This argument over legality is pointless. The United Nations decided that the best way to solve the problem of that area was to divide it between the Jews and Arabs. There's no point in even going back any further than that. By any interpretation of international law Israel has a right to exist and be where it is, and you cannot therefore apply any level of guilt to its people based on them being there. Furthermore, you cannot absolve the Arab world of the majority of "guilt" for what happened afterwards, the multiple wars against Israel, the continued refusal to absorb Arabs displaced by those wars, and their continued support, funding and encouragement of terrorist attacks against the state of Israel.

Wicked non sequitur, dude. Unless you're saying the fact some people somewhere else treat other people badly gives Israel carte blanche to do as it wishes to the Palestinians, I don't see what your point is. We all know there's some nasty regimes in the area. The tragedy of Israel, IMO, is that it's crimes occur within a nominally liberal-democratic framework. I expect better of them than I do of the thugs in Cairo or Damauscus.

And yet you and most of your ideological kindred support the thugs in Cairo and Damascas, and among the Palestinians, against the state of Israel. Most any Arab leader can step off a plane in Ottawa and not fear much in the way of protest, except by refugees from their own country, but the arrival of even a former leader of Israel brings riots and mass outrage from the Left.

Except the suffering is not equal. Palestinians are far worse off for a number of reasons, the bulk of which are directley related to Israel's military occupation.

Directly related to their own violence, you mean. Absent the continued terrorist threat I doubt the life of a west bank farmer would be any worse than one in Jordan or Syria or Egypt. And in many respects could be better. Do you actually think life is going to get better in an independant Palestine? Do you think there's going to be freedom and democratic institutions? Do you think business and agriculture will thrive?

Palestine will be about as wealthy and democratic as Yemen. The land has no resources, and not enough water. There's no capital, and no infrastructure. And it doesn't look like their fellow Arabs are interested in funding them in anything but attacks on Israel.

Again: the collective guilt of all Arabs cannot be based on acts by some Arab states; Zionists cannot

justify their initial expulsion of Palestinians and the continued oppression thereof because some Arab states carried out repressive policies against Jews.

Again, no one has to justify expulsions of Palestinians as this did not take place, except in small, isolated cases. Palestinians fled on their own due to the conflicts begun by Arab states. And oppression is bred by violence, which was instigated by the Palestinians themselves.

Hey, good for them. But if I go to your house, kick you into the street and take up residence there because my personal sky-pixie told me it was my right, you'd probably be peeved, and rightly so.

A poor analogy given the Jews did not displace the Palestinians. They were already living there among them. And the vast majority of Palestinians left because of a war begun by Arabs, and then stayed away because they were encouraged to do so by Arab states.

Here's the thing: I don't tolerate inhumanity or injustice anywhere.

Sure you do. Just not in Israel.

For some reason.

[Machinations]

Completely off-topic, perhaps - but would one of my esteemed colleagues be so kind as to enlighten me:

What is Israel's policy on nuclear weapons? You know, the big bad ones we invade other countries for allegedly developing.

Tongue is firmly-in-cheek.

As an aside, I find it disturbing that none of you mention the Irgun or the various other Jewish terrorist organizations active in Palestine prior to the end of the British Mandate. Disturbing but not surprising, since very few people seem to bother to look into the actual process that created this wonderful democracy on, as you call it, 'poor land with very little water''.

It is especially interesting that the Irgun commited many atrocious acts, including the massacre of civilians, yet we in the West seem to know so little of it. Pity, that.

[August1991]

Completely off-topic, perhaps - but would one of my esteemed colleagues be so kind as to enlighten me:

What is Israel's policy on nuclear weapons? You know, the big bad ones we invade other countries for allegedly developing.

Tongue is firmly-in-cheek.

In the case of Israel, I think it's a bit like gays in the US military. "Don't ask, don't tell."

Keep in mind that France, Russia, India and even Pakistan have nuclear weapons but no one is talking about invading these countries. Having nuclear weapons is one aspect of the problem, but the far graver aspect is whose finger is on the button.

Moral equivalence is the idea that since the police have guns, the Hell's Angels have the right to have guns too. While that idea is patently absurd when discussing domestic affairs, it is too often forgotten when discussing interational affairs.

[Machinations]

Keep in mind that France, Russia, India and even Pakistan have nuclear weapons but no one is talking about invading these countries. Having nuclear weapons is one aspect of the problem, but the far graver aspect is whose finger is on the button.

Moral equivalence is the idea that since the police have guns, the Hell's Angels have the right to have guns too. While that idea is patently absurd when discussing domestic affairs, it is too often forgotten when discussing interational affairs.

Pakistan? I firmly believe that if it was'nt for our friendly neighbourhood dictator we would be very, very worried. (The Economist, subscribe link but free account with email, hehe - thus, free in perpetuity)

I subscribe to the belief that there is more to the geopolitical situation than Iran's jingoism aginst Israel (especially since it is reciprocated by, well, everyone else) Like, for example, the increased demand and stagnant production of oil.

Edit: Further, I am not comforted by the fact that nuclear weapons are now in the hands of many nations. I certainly do not fear an attack by Iran - their ballistic delivery systems are falling off in the 300km range right now - a threat to the land of Moses and Abraham, perhaps - but not to the land of Bacon and Beer. However, painting your ideological enemy to be some horrible demon is an excess that is best left at the wayside of history - lest we be doomed to make mistake after mistake. Iran is a collection of individuals with wildly divergent interests. Best we treat it as such, and negotiate, rather than attack out of fear and ignorance.

[fixer1]

Well Argus

You are just a coward. I will put it to you this way. I will do my best to find out who you are and where you are, and absent of your being in the USA where I am not allowed, I will come and see you and pay my deepest respects to you and anyone near you. You have a nice day, and by all means keep your attitude. I will ajust it later when we meet. Thank you for making my day.

Let me get this straight: You want to travel across the country to attack me, and apparently anyone in my immediate proximity, because I called your opinions about Jews ignorant? I'm guessing you must have a really long hit list.

I'm sorry you went nuts over this. Looking over your previous postings I find I agree with you on just about everything. Your opinions of Israelis and Jews, however, are quite simply ignorant. I admit I could have stated that more kindly, and now wish I had. However, you will likely be banned for this silly post, and deserve to be. I will not, however, call the cops. You've posted more than sufficient personal information in previous threads to find you fairly easily should they so desire, but I don't believe you deserve that for blowing your top and saying something stupid.

I am not trying to hide anything in fact anyone who ever tried to e-mail me knows exactly who I am. The only reason I can not go to the USA is because of satellite TV pirating. I believe you are in the Ottawa area from past posts. I am just south of there. Yes I would like to meet you face to face and see if you would be so bold as you are behind the key board. Any police agency would laugh at you for my post and as for me being banned, I am a moderator at several forums on the net and the method you used to dis me or any other poster would be enough for a temporary ban. This site though does not sem to have any moderators who are here, but I could be wrong.

On site like this where political views are expressed and many times they will conflict with beliefs of others, it is especially important that posts do not degrade anyone for what they believe. When you do that, you are the one that is the worse for it. It shows intolerance of being able to see other sides. That then makes you dangerous to a site like this.

As for you thinking I would beat you up goes well, you may have deduced that, but I would have to say that I am not what you would call a little guy and if we did meet face to face, I think you would quickly adjust your attitude quite fast. I probably would never hit you or those around you as I do know that I proabbly would cause you very much harm. You see I do know how to control myself even when angered, but you try and anger people without knowing who or what they are. So think about this, and then look back at the way you said and did things, and see if there is little doubt about what you said and why you said it. One day you will get someone the wrong way and with in reach of you and that would not be a good day. They keyboard is not some hidden barrier and even if you surf with proxies it still is best to only post the same way you would if the people were in front of you. Especially in a political forum like this.

[Rue]

Hedy Black Dog it was a long day and you are damn right I should write in

sentences. Great responses. Good points in response. Appreciate your clarifications.

Of course I jumped on some of your comments but you did a great job contextualizing them.

That said, although we will agree to disagree, let me really tell you where my head is on

this.

I believe both Israel and Palestinians have equally as valid rights and both should have

countries and live in peace.

I have problems with people when they try depict it in simplistic terms and portray Israel as the top-going and the Palestinians as the under-dog and equates the suffering of Palestinians asw being greater then that

of Israelis.

The real truth is each side has suffered and continues to suffer and it is just not fair to suggest

Israel has it easier. Its not fair because if you travel as I have, and witnessed Jews blow up into pieces as I have and witness Palestinians blow up into pieces as I have, you just don't see it in terms of a good guy and bad guy, you see it as simply a bloody mess with everyone suffering equally.

Seriously Black Dog, there is nothing like someone's brains blowing up all over you to drive

the point home how everyone bleeds and suffers the same way.

That Black Dog is the real reason I debated you. Because I know you are an intelligent insightful dude

and that is what I am trying to push you to concede which you sort of did.

Now the reason I tried to explain the Jewish spiritual connection to the soil is not to justify

fundamentalist religion.

But it is to provide you with a reminder that when Jews feel a connection to the soil, it is not because they feel they are better then anyone else. Maybe you understand it, although it sounded like you did not care in earlier responses, (which I think I misunderstood, because I think you care, you just don't think it is relevant) when Jews feel they are a chosen people and promised such land, its not based on the concept that they think they are better. But it is because of that strong religious feeling and connection to God through the soil they stake a claim to that tiny piece of sand and will never go away.

As for the Palestinians, what I don't think you understand is, for Muslims, borders are something the West

is hung up on. A true Muslim or Arab does not seperate state from religion and borders...bah what are they, if they could they would wander from the tip or Morrocco to the shores of Indonesia and the Philippines, to Europe and Asia, etc. This concept that Palestinians feel a religious or historic tie to the land is

misleading.

What has happened is that Muslims can not understand why in the middle of their world, suddenly their are Jews in a country, its not about them feeling a special link to the land because of religious reasons, its about the idea of non Muslims in their opinion living in a seperate secular nation in what they think is the middle of their world. So its a religious clash and to understand it you really do have to understand how both sides religions not just one causes the discrimination.

In your references you make it seem like Zionism is the cause of the discrimination. That is just not true.

The clash comes from many things and not just one side. It comes yes from Jewish fundamentalists who are entrenched in their ways and feel that the borders of Israel should reflect the ancent biblical lands that in fact include all of the West Bank, parts of Syria, etc.

Then there are the fundamentalist Muslims who believe in dhimmitude and the belief that all non Muslims should not have a country and are second class citizens. You really should read up on the dhimmitude in the Muslim world before you simply state Zionism is racism.

The discrimination goes both ways when it comes to following these two religions based on fundamentalist principles.

Moderate Jews, the average Jew in Israel today is obsessed with peace. They just want to be left alone.

In the Palestinian world, and I have been there, the Gaza , the West Bank, Hamas recruits and teaches children as soon as they can walk and speak to kill Jews and wipe out Israel. It makes no differentiation between the war against Jews, or Israeli Jews or Zionists.

The moderate Palestinians similiar to the moderate Jews, are trying hard to reach out and form peace networks and I should know I was shuffling back and forth at one point between such peace networks.

Here is the problem though Black Dog. If a moderate Palestinian were to come out, they would be shot and killed. Likewise, its hard for peaceniks in Israel to say anything after a terrorist attack kills yet another innocent civilian.

Now as for your simplistic portrayal as Israel as the enemy bulldozing down homes let me try contextualize that for you.

Have you any idea how small Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are? Oh trust me Black D its jammed.

How jamed? Imagine you live in Etobicoke and next door in Mississauga someone is launching missiles at you or sending guys with bombs into grocery stores to blow up.

You think bulldozing down a home is harsh but it wasn't too long ago Canada involked the War Measures act when it thought it was under attack from the FLQ and suspended everyone's civil rights.

See you may think it is unfair but you don't live in a tiny country surrounded by people who keep telling you they will wipe you out. You develop a siege mentality. That siege mentality means you never sleep without one eye open. So to you Israelis seem harsh bulldozing, to them its a matter of survival.

So why bulldozing. Its not as simple as the Israel Defence Force just going in and destroying homes. What happens is a militant faction commits acts of terrorism, i.e., sends out bombers, missile attacks fromr esidential homes. As well, boms are made in residential homes. That is the tactic Hamas, Al Fatah and all the other 232 militant splinter groups use. They deliberately hide among civilians, in ambulances and hospitals so that when the Israelis come in hot pursuit, the Israelis can't find them. So what the Israelis do is bulldoze down where they find the militant to be and that necessarily destroys civilian homes and it necessarily means innocent civilians are hurt and killed in the search and destroy pursuits.

You make it seem the Israelis deliberately do this. In reality its this never ending cycle of violence. What comes first, the terrorist attack or response?

See the problem comes because Palestinian militants have chosen to feel that violence is a legitimate tactic of expression. Saying Israelis are the bad guys is silly. They are simply defending themselves and of course innocent Palestinians suffer and of course the Israeli military does dumb things. But what you do not see is what the Israeli military has also done that is positive. That does not make the news.

You want to help Black Dog? Rather then pointing the finger at Israelis. Serve as a neutral and try bring Palestinians and Israelis together and teach them not to hate and be frightened of each other. It aint easy let me tell you. Anyone who has lived in a conflict zone like Northern Ireland, etc., can yell you that.

Before Palestinians and Israels ever can find peace they need to be seperated and allowed to heal and that can't be done as long as Hamas is waging war.

That said I know damn well Israel helped create Hamas to destabalize the PLO and now its come back to bite them in the face. Then again Syria has helped create numerous groups de control Lebanon which now bite the Syrians hands. In the Middle East today's enemy is tomorrow's ally then the week after's enemy. Its not simply a matter of good versus bad Muslim v.s. Jew.

Within Palestinian society there is great tension and differences of opinion. Hamas sounds like a bevolent organization. I can tell you they are unlike the PLO not corupt, but they are fundamentalists. They do not believe in democracy, equality between the sexes, freedom of expression or any other such thing.

The fact is Israelis do and the Muslim or Arab Israelis do and these Arab Israelis are caught in a no win situation because they can ot ever imagine living in a fundamentalist Muslim state but on the other hand like say Japanese in the US during world war two, they can never ever feel equal in Israel.

So this depiction of Israel as being full of Zionists and that Zionism is racism, that my friend is pure bull shit taught in university that has no application in the real world.

In the real world you have factions, some Muslim, some Jewish and everyone disagrees. Jews disgree with other Jews, Muslims fight with other Muslims. Its not Muslim versus Jew as much as you would love it to be. Its not that simple. The PLO is not even the PLO. That is what the Western press calls it because its easier then trying to keep track of the hundreds of factions within it.

And within Palestine you think everyone has the same views as to Islam?

The only thing Palestinians have in common is their hatred for Israel. The only thing Israeli Jews have in common is their sense of being underattack all around them.

Other then that Tsfardic Jews have more in common with many Arabs then Ashkanazi Jews do and that is something you really should try understand before you simply portray all of Israel as a monolithic state of

Zionists.

Zionism did not invision hurting Arabs. It was a socialist dream by Jews being oppressed in Europe and not allowed to own land or enjoy equal rights. When Theodore Hertzl came up with this vision it was for a socialist state living peacefully with Arab states.

Before you depict Israel as so evil, you really should make a point of examining the history of countries in the Arab League, their coruption, their violence against each other and their own citizens, and how

the Europeans brought modern day anti-semetic notions to them. If it were not for the Germans, French and British after both world wars, a Jewish state could very well have naturally sprung up.

Before you point the finger at Israel you really do have to understand what the British and French did in carving up nations into artificial states in that area. You really do have to make an effort to understand how the British deliberately proposed a Belfour Declaration to create two states so Britain could have two constantly feuding entities and rule by divide and conquer.

Israel is as much a victim as Palestinians and Palestine if that is what you want to call it.

As for your rendition of Jewish history, all I would ask you to do is stop being so quick to ignore that Jews have the same rights as Palestinians to a land. Anyone from either side is wrong if they try negate the other side's rights.

As for your positions. If you are to be credible, then rather then simply select Zionism as being racist, accept the reality that everyone, all of us, all religions, all political ideologies are inherently intolerant to those they do not agree with. To state it is simply Zionism that has caused the problem and discriminates is

very naive indeed.

It ignores the role 3,000 years of Christian discrimination and mass murders of Jews has played in forming this reaction by Jews to wanting to go back to where they were expelled from. It ignores the thousand of years of dhimmitude invoked by Muslims against anyone who was not a Muslim in their counties. It ignores the laws imposed by the British and French that set up much of today's present climate of instability in the Middle East. It ignores the German influence on the Muslim religous leaders in the 20's, 30's and 40's. It ignores the harsh strain of anti-semetism towards all Jews, Zionists or not promulgated daily on the t.v. stations, radio stations, and in the newpapers of countless Arab nations. It ignores the fact that for example, the alleged moderate PLO leader Mr. Abbas who the West refers to as a moderate, wrote his thesis on

justifying anti-semetism and the Protocols of Zion an out and out fraudulent piece of literature that is today passed around the Muslim world as the gospel.

There is a lot I am afraid you don't know about the Middle East and don't sound like you care to know. But believe me on one thing, your attempt to portray all Zionists as being discriminatory is necessarily bigoted and ignorant and your attempt to depict Zionism as instituting racism in Israel based on some newspaper articles is way out of context. To understand Israeli policies towards Jews, you really have to come to the country and see what it really means. You would have to understand that within Israel there is still a huge debate as to what the definition of a Jew is. It is not as simple as you portray it and yes I had to call you on depicting Israel as a utopia that disciminates against everyone but Jews. That is pure b.s. Everyone in Israel faces the exact same hardships and that is the irony of Israel. It has achieved equality for all its peoples, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, because they all suffer and know what it is like to feel trapped and misunderstood.

One last thing. To understand the Middle East is to also not be aware of the anti-semetism that has been preached by its Orthodox Christian Churches and their aiding terrorist actions.

None one in the Middle East escapes having blood on their hands...except the Bahaiis who were wiped out in Iran and made the mistake of placing their head place of worship in Israel instead of say New York City.

I can honestly say with the exception of the Bahaiis, everyone else has been equally caught up in good and bad actions. And no I am not Bahaii.

[Argus]

On site like this where political views are expressed and many times they will conflict with beliefs of others, it is especially important that posts do not degrade anyone for what they believe.

If you think I'm going to give respect to views which are a hair away from being blatant, outright anti-semitism you're very much mistaken. Your views on Israels and Jews are ignorant. Are you from somewhere else, by chance? They're the kind of views I hear from North Aficans, Muslims and eastern Europeans. In any event, the type of view you expressed is not one I am ever going to treat with much respect. Nor am I going to treat with ANY respect, someone who thinks they can gain that respect through physical threats.

[Rue]

Fixer anyone reading your posts on Israel realizes you mix your hatred with Jews with

issues as to the Israeli-Political conflict. Its evident in the words you choose. For that you are not entitled to intelligent debate from anyone. As for your trying to act like a tough guy its laughable. If you have size anxiety get a therapist and deal with it and save your big macho guy routine for a gay bar where

it might be appreciated in a particular context.

[BHS]

Okay, who reading this thread is surprised to find that fixer1 is still a member of the forum? I was reading this thread the other day when I read a post that really startled me. Let me refresh:

Well Argus

You are just a coward. I will put it to you this way. I will do my best to find out who you are and where you are, and absent of your being in the USA where I am not allowed, I will come and see you and pay my deepest respects to you and anyone near you. You have a nice day, and by all means keep your attitude. I will ajust it later when we meet. Thank you for making my day.

Since when is threatening to hunt down and do physical violence to another member not a bannable offence? I mean, for crying out loud, he could be charged for this.

[August1991]

Since when is threatening to hunt down and do physical violence to another member not a bannable offence? I mean, for crying out loud, he could be charged for this.

If you notice, fixer1 has been banned.

[BHS]

Since when is threatening to hunt down and do physical violence to another member not a bannable offence? I mean, for crying out loud, he could be charged for this.

If you notice, fixer1 has been banned.

My apologies to all. I read the line that said "Full Member" instead of the line further down that said "Banned".

[lost&outofcontrol]

...You keep referring to Israel as oppressors-this again is a typically selective perspective and one which sees right and wrong and a good guy...

Oppression? Tell that to innocent civilians who simply want to be left alone and live in peace but have to live with people blowing up bombs in front of their faces. Of course you sitting on your safe cushy self-righteous seat have never been to Israel and had limbs and stomach matter explode all over your face.

Funny how selective perspective works.

---

Death toll for 2000-2005

Again, what about Palistinian suicide bomber who walk into a crowded market and blow themselves up with the sole purpose of killing as many innocent civilians as possible. Give your head a shake and wake up. From what I have read in most cases it is Israelis are simply defending themselves from a bunch of terrrorists who's only goal in life is the complete anihilation of Israel. Hamas and Iran, have a stated goal of denying Israel's right to exist. If I were a member of CUPE I would be actively working towards decertification of my particular Local. I'm quite sure this measure does not represent the wishes of the vast majority of CUPE.

Look at the numbers I posted and tell me who is defending themselves. And on a personal note, I’m proud to be a CUPE member.