NYC: Woody Allen, Martin Scorcese, Paul Mazursky

[August1991]

Why are urban people so leftist?

====

I know the city of New York as a tourist. (I had an aunt who married a New Yorker from Brooklyn, but they moved to Long Island.)

Years ago, I recall flying into JFK from Frankfurt (AMS?) and the two young women beside me. First time to America. I explained that foreigners only care about Manhatten, below Central Park. I showed them the map, suggested that they walk.

And I gave these kids Gershwin in their Walkman.

[Barquentine]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Why are urban people so leftist?

Higher education? The top 8 states with people holding graduate degrees are all north eastern states.

Had a short visit to NYC many years ago. Very friendly people.

[August1991]

On 7/6/2025 at 9:42 AM, Barquentine said:

Higher education? The top 8 states with people holding graduate degrees are all north eastern states.

Had a short visit to NYC many years ago. Very friendly people.

Why are educated people so, uh, clueless?

NYC? I quickly learned, like Montreal, there are bridge/tunnel people. 

 

[August1991]

Mazursky had one view: Moscow on the Hudson, Next Stop, Greenwich Village

Woody Allen had another: Annie Hall, Manhatten

Martin Scorcese had still another: Goodfellas, Mean Streets

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

On 7/5/2025 at 10:12 PM, August1991 said:

Why are urban people so leftist?

====

I know the city of New York as a tourist. (I had an aunt who married a New Yorker from Brooklyn, but they moved to Long Island.)

Years ago, I recall flying into JFK from Frankfurt (AMS?) and the two young women beside me. First time to America. I explained that foreigners only care about Manhatten, below Central Park. I showed them the map, suggested that they walk.

And I gave these kids Gershwin in their Walkman.

Government, etiquette, and literature were born with the creation of cities in ancient Sumeria.  It was ever so. 

 

It was also the start of the rural urban divide, see the story of Cain and Abel 😞

[TreeBeard]

On 7/15/2025 at 3:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Government, etiquette, and literature were born with the creation of cities in ancient Sumeria.  It was ever so. 

 

It was also the start of the rural urban divide, see the story of Cain and Abel 😞

Cain and Abel were Sumerian?  You think that story is historical?  

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Cain and Abel were Sumerian?  You think that story is historical?  

A lot of those stories are based on ancient myths, which probably have some root in reality. 

The epic of Gilgamesh gives us Moses and his birth myth, for example.   But it seems too specific to have been made up out of whole cloth.  Clearly there was some story that was repeated. 

Similarly, flood myths are pervasive. 

I read a story in scientific American, I think it was, that postulated the myths associated with the Stars, such as the Hunter, should be myths from a common Northern tribe from tens of thousands of years ago. The idea being that when the tribe split into distant families in northern Europe, Northern Canada, Northern Russia... The seeds of the myth were intact. 

We know so little about prehistory. With DNA testing, our own scientific myths are being shattered everyday. 

Don't mistake me as someone who believes the Bible is real though.

I read an analysis of Cain and Abel that said, it was a representative of ancient conflicts between urbanites and hunter-gatherers, from the dawn of civilization

Edited July 17, 2025 by Michael Hardner

[TreeBeard]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The idea being that when the tribe split into distant families in northern Europe, Northern Canada, Northern Russia

These kinds of things sound nicer than the stories being a coincidence, but there’s no evidence to actually show that it is an ancient myth versus a coincidence separated by thousands of years and thousands of kilometers.  
 

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

We know so little about prehistory. With DNA testing, our own scientific myths are being shattered everyday. 

Scientific myth?  Thats a silly way to say sometimes science is wrong. Science doesn’t work based on stories, but the best available evidence.  
 

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I read an analysis of Cain and Abel that said, it was a representative of ancient conflicts between urbanites and hunter-gatherers, from the dawn of civilization

That may be the intent of the story, and it may even describe a truth, but if you were raised in China, you would be regurgitating the wisdom of different ancient myths with very similar themes.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

1. These kinds of things sound nicer than the stories being a coincidence, but there’s no evidence to actually show that it is an ancient myth versus a coincidence separated by thousands of years and thousands of kilometers.  
 

2. Scientific myth?  Thats a silly way to say sometimes science is wrong. Science doesn’t work based on stories, but the best available evidence.  
 

3. That may be the intent of the story, and it may even describe a truth, but if you were raised in China, you would be regurgitating the wisdom of different ancient myths with very similar themes.

1.  Well, if you're talking about 'proof' you're right.  We can't interview ice-age elders and ask them where they got their stories.  At a certain point, though, coincidence seems less likely.  The 'evidence' such as it is, presented in the article, said that all northern tribes had similar mythology explaining the constellations while no southern tribes shared these myths.  But far be it for me to defend THEIR thesis - seek it out if you like.  It's, at least, interesting.

2.  Sure, silly and playful   Science is sort-of always wrong, or at least incomplete.  

3. Yes, and those myths might/could/would have elements of truth mixed in.   The best that archeology/anthropology can do is make an educated guess, I suppose.

Edited July 17, 2025 by Michael Hardner

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, if you're talking about 'proof' you're right.  We can't interview ice-age elders and ask them where they got their stories.

I said evidence.  Proof is for mathematics.  So if I’m talking about “evidence”, am I right also?

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

At a certain point, though, coincidence seems less likely.  The 'evidence' such as it is, presented in the article, said that all northern tribes had similar mythology explaining the constellations while no southern tribes shared these myths.  But far be it from me to defend THEIR thesis - seek it out if you like.  It's, at least, interesting.

How did you determine coincidence is less likely than the same story being handed downs 10s of thousands of years?

Honestly, you made it sound  speculative, at best.  Doesn’t sound all that interesting.  

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Science is sort-of always wrong, or at least incomplete.

If you can think of a better way to determine the truth about the natural world, I’d be interested in hearing about it. 
 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

The best that archeology/anthropology can do is make an educated guess, I suppose.

Educated guess doesn’t mean ruling out coincidences out of hand.  I like speculative fiction.  I don’t like people pretending their speculative fiction is historical. 

Edited July 17, 2025 by TreeBeard

[Michael Hardner]

19 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

1. I said evidence.  Proof is for mathematics.  So if I’m talking about “evidence”, am I right also?

2. How did you determine coincidence is less likely than the same story being handed downs 10s of thousands of years?

3.  Doesn’t sound all that interesting.  

4. If you can think of a better way to determine the truth about the natural world, I’d be interested in hearing about it. 

5. Educated guess doesn’t mean ruling out coincidences out of hand.   

1. Yes, I know.  I realized that when I posted but I walked around your point.  What is "evidence" ?  Small numbers of facts that support your thesis ?  If so, then yes there's evidence.  Whether or not knowledgeable people are convinced or not is TBD.  Similarly with Climate Change, we have 'evidence' but not proof.  Climate denialists presumably think correlated temps and CO2 levels are coincidence.

2. My opinion only.  If I show a group of people a set of stars and ask them to form a guess as to what they might represent pictorially I suspect you would get different answers from different people.  So the chance of separate tribes, several of them, coming up with the same picture is at least small if not remote.  Also, pointing out again that it's not my theory so I'm not going to be great at defending it.

3.  You don't think it's even interesting that tribes carry an oral tradition so long that the tribes themselves splintered and even developed different cultures while retaining the myth ?  Ok.

4.   You seem to be argumentative with regards to my statements here.  I have nothing against science, and yes I think it's our only framework for assessing objective truth in terms of hard sciences.  Do you think I'm an adversary ?  I don't think we disagree on very much at all.

5.   I didn't do that either.

[August1991]

On 7/15/2025 at 6:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Government, etiquette, and literature were born with the creation of cities in ancient Sumeria.  It was ever so. 

 

It was also the start of the rural urban divide, see the story of Cain and Abel 😞

WTF? Sumeria?

====

New York?

[August1991]

IMHO, there are three views of New York City:

-Mazursky

-Woody Allen

-Scorcese

 

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

IMHO, there are three views of New York City:

-Mazursky

-Woody Allen

-Scorcese

 

Replace Mazursky with Spike Lee and I am in.

[August1991]

On 8/10/2025 at 6:15 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Replace Mazursky with Spike Lee and I am in.

Spike Lee is the DEI version of Mazursky.

Woody Allen is the Limo version.

Scorcese is the gritty version

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I reckon the Mazursky version is best: "Moscow on the Hudson" is a good example.