A serious discussion on racial profiling respecting mass murder and se

[Temagami Scourge]

Studies and research we've seen are for the US (and Canada). If we have access to information from other parts of the globe, it is possible that we'll find evidence that this phenomenom is not confined to just one particular group. Besides, only the most horrific , the most body-count and sensational cases are usually highlighted. Therefore, how can we conclude your statement as fact if all areas have not been covered?

Betsy: For some reason, serial killing and mass murder has proven to be confined to caucasians here in Canada. I know the US stats that that serial killers and mass murderers are usually white males, but on occasion can come in every shape and size, but I'm focussing on Canada.

We have different perspectives, a different culture and many other social differences not shared with other countries, so what make serial killing and mass murder so unique here? I'm certain that the times will change in the future, but for the time being, these terrible traits reside in the domain of our caucasian brothers and sisters.

[Guest Warwick Green]

If your actually being serious and not just making some political racially based statement, I can see a bit of truth in what your saying. Most mass murders are white, but considering most of the population is white, I'm not suprised

I wonder what percentage of all murders are actually committed by "mass murderers". Sure Clifford Olson is a well-known name but it seems to me that I see far more murders of the ad-hoc variety which depressingly often consists of a male killing his mate. I have never noticed any particular racial bias here in that it seems that this activity crosses over numerous racial and ethnic boundaries.

[Temagami Scourge]

I found the original post hilarious. The writer clearly has a sense of anger flowing from how he perceives aboriginal people have been treated by white people and in particular white Europeans so makes a delibertaley racist and provocative comment to see if someone will take the bait and say something anti-aboriginal back so he can then use that as an opportunity to rationalize his anger and continue a tit for tat of name calling. Sorry if I do not play the blame game.

Actually, I think you are reading a bit much into the post. There have been some anti-Native commentary, but I'm trying to quell any racist comments and just focus on serial killing and mass murder in this country, and the overrepresentation of the caucasian Canadian community in this issue...and nothing more.

By the way for those of us who have worked in the court system and have profiled serial killers and the profiles of criminals we will all tell you what you already know - the propensity to kill and commit crime is inherent in all humans regardless of gender, ethnicity, culture, etc. Some feel most of this is predetermined genetically others feel it is a mix of genetics and learned behaviour. I lean to the latter.

Rue: I, too, have worked in the court system, and I agree with your insight that genetics and learned behaviour have much to do with criminality. Now, to focus even more, is it possible that a mix of genes and learned behaviour contribute to serial killings and mass murder? What is the thread between Bernardo, Pickton and Olsen? What set them off and not someone else? Do you have any thoughts on that?

I also think it would be more productive if the original post rather than engage in passive aggressive hatred towards European and whites, really raised an issue dealing with the perceived discriminatory treatment against aboriginals in this country. Probably be a lot more productive then this fake b.s. discussion about serial killers.

I hope you don't assume I'm passive-agressive? I'm pretty much all aggressive, and this is not fake B.S. about serial killers. This is a candid discussion that I intend to do my best to prevent from degrading into some racist drivel, and right now you are helping that much Rue. You obviously have a lot to offer, so I would like to see more insight from you...I, for one, appreciate it.

maybe some time later I'll start a thread about preceptions in discriminatory treatment, but we've just been through the whole Six Nations ringer and I'd prefer to give it a rest for the time being.

[Temagami Scourge]

Warwick:

I wonder what percentage of all murders are actually committed by "mass murderers".

I think it is very small, but the fear of the randomness of the act is what drives me. I mean, look at Lepine. he purposfully killed women. How do I know that myself or my family be a victim because of our race? The whole Caledonia event certainly brought this idea to the fore because, as Betsy pointed out, many of the Caledonians "fit" the serial killer/mass murderer description. This is not to say that Natives or anyone else has the same propensity, but the fact is that none of the minority groups in Canada have committed such an act, so they can be discounted for the time being.

Sure Clifford Olson is a well-known name but it seems to me that I see far more murders of the ad-hoc variety which depressingly often consists of a male killing his mate. I have never noticed any particular racial bias here in that it seems that this activity crosses over numerous racial and ethnic boundaries.

Agreed. There are no boundaries for "regular" murder. This is a sad reflection of society, especially family murders....and unfortunately make up the bulk of the murders in Canada.

[Rue]

I found the original post hilarious. The writer clearly has a sense of anger flowing from how he perceives aboriginal people have been treated by white people and in particular white Europeans so makes a delibertaley racist and provocative comment to see if someone will take the bait and say something anti-aboriginal back so he can then use that as an opportunity to rationalize his anger and continue a tit for tat of name calling. Sorry if I do not play the blame game.

Actually, I think you are reading a bit much into the post. There have been some anti-Native commentary, but I'm trying to quell any racist comments and just focus on serial killing and mass murder in this country, and the overrepresentation of the caucasian Canadian community in this issue...and nothing more.

By the way for those of us who have worked in the court system and have profiled serial killers and the profiles of criminals we will all tell you what you already know - the propensity to kill and commit crime is inherent in all humans regardless of gender, ethnicity, culture, etc. Some feel most of this is predetermined genetically others feel it is a mix of genetics and learned behaviour. I lean to the latter.

Rue: I, too, have worked in the court system, and I agree with your insight that genetics and learned behaviour have much to do with criminality. Now, to focus even more, is it possible that a mix of genes and learned behaviour contribute to serial killings and mass murder? What is the thread between Bernardo, Pickton and Olsen? What set them off and not someone else? Do you have any thoughts on that?

I also think it would be more productive if the original post rather than engage in passive aggressive hatred towards European and whites, really raised an issue dealing with the perceived discriminatory treatment against aboriginals in this country. Probably be a lot more productive then this fake b.s. discussion about serial killers.

I hope you don't assume I'm passive-agressive? I'm pretty much all aggressive, and this is not fake B.S. about serial killers. This is a candid discussion that I intend to do my best to prevent from degrading into some racist drivel, and right now you are helping that much Rue. You obviously have a lot to offer, so I would like to see more insight from you...I, for one, appreciate it.

maybe some time later I'll start a thread about preceptions in discriminatory treatment, but we've just been through the whole Six Nations ringer and I'd prefer to give it a rest for the time being.

Thank you for your measured response. I admire your restraint. I also admire anyone who cares to educate all of us on the treatment of our native people over the years but I myself will not mix it with the issue of serial killers.

The mistreatment of aboriginals was often done by good Christians in the name of Christianity not serial killers and most if not all Canadians who are not aboriginal have few insights as to the myriad of laws and treaties that have been broken violating aboriginal rights.

That said, having tracked and gotten into the heads of pathological personalities or people with personality disorders I can only say the following; there is no limit to the depravity in which any human can commit but on the other hand there is no limit to the good we can commit either.

As for my other comments, reading them back they sound to personal. I did not mean to get personal. I could have written my responses better to indicate that I felt the logical consequence of responding to them would get too personal. They target you too much as a person. That I regret. and you are a good man for laughing off the passive aggressive comment. Shows character.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Agreed. There are no boundaries for "regular" murder. This is a sad reflection of society, especially family murders....and unfortunately make up the bulk of the murders in Canada.

Lepine, Pickton, abusive husbands and boy friends, girls kidnapped from their homes...

Being female is hazardous to your health.

[betsy]

[The mistreatment of aboriginals was often done by good Christians in the name of Christianity not serial killers and most if not all Canadians who are not aboriginal have few insights as to the myriad of laws and treaties that have been broken violating aboriginal rights.

Do you mean the " good christians" who think they're Christians...sodomizing their way through every orphanages? And the "good christians" who think they're Christians...abusing and wielding their power over the minorities? And also the chieftains (are they christians btw) who had forsaken and mistreated their own people, and instead lining their own pockets?

Yep. They don't fall under the category of "serial killers."

[Riverwind]

No, many murders take place in the Aboriginal community. I've had to live through the unfortunate experience of having relations who were either murder victims or murderers...but again, this thread is looking at serial killing and mass murder, which have non-existent Aboriginal representation in Canada, to date.

You prove the irrelevance of this point. Statistically you are probably correct to point out that 80% mass murderers/serial killers are white men. I suspect that this percentage reasonably reflects the percentage of the population in this country. In other words, Europeans are not 'over represented' in this crime category - rather they are simply represented in the proportion that we would expect in a colour blind world.

On the other hand, serial killings are extremely rare crimes and not something that the police can do to prevent in advance. So your suggestion that police should do start treating all white men as possible serial killers would not increase public safety. Police would be better off focusing on crimes that do occur frequently such as domestic violance and gang related activites.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy:

Do you mean the " good christians" who think they're Christians...sodomizing their way through every orphanages? And the "good christians" who think they're Christians...abusing and wielding their power over the minorities? And also the chieftains (are they christians btw) who had forsaken and mistreated their own people, and instead lining their own pockets? Yep. They don't fall under the category of "serial killers."

As I was saying earlier, if you and Rue want to discuss the Christian impact on Aboriginal people, then start a thread saying so and don't start a tangent here, please. To be honest, what you are saying is interesting, and i'd be happy to join you in conversation, but we just can't do it here.

s'allright?

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

You prove the irrelevance of this point.

What do you mean when you say this is irrelevant? Can you expand on this?

Statistically you are probably correct to point out that 80% mass murderers/serial killers are white men..

River, the figure is closer to 100%, when our caucasian population is 87%. This is a lopsided trend, and this is the focus of discussion.....why is this seemingly more endemic in our caucasian community?

I suspect that this percentage reasonably reflects the percentage of the population in this country. In other words, Europeans are not 'over represented' in this crime category - rather they are simply represented in the proportion that we would expect in a colour blind world.

Forgive me, but I don't get what you are driving at in the above paragraph. Could you expand a bit?

On the other hand, serial killings are extremely rare crimes and not something that the police can do to prevent in advance.

Yes and No here. Yes, these types of crimes are rare, but they can and do happen, and to be frank, they seem to occur much more lately here in Canada. Mas murder almost appears to be a monthly event in the U.S. now, but why the increase in Canada? Do you think the States might have something to do with it? perhaps as an influence?

No, as in there may be something we can do to pre-empt these types of crimes. I don't want to throw my hands in the air and say "can't help it", but rather do something more proactive.

So your suggestion that police should do start treating all white men as possible serial killers would not increase public safety. Police would be better off focusing on crimes that do occur frequently such as domestic violance and gang related activites.

Treating all "white" men as serial killers is racial profiling, and that is one of the main points of this thread. Do you think its fair to do that or not? likewise, if you are interested in domestic crimes and gang stuff, start a thread about it, but try to maintain focus on what we are discussing here.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Temagami Scourge,

Treating all "white" men as serial killers is racial profiling, and that is one of the main points of this thread. Do you think its fair to do that or not?

This is quite ridiculous. Firstly, mass murderers are different from serial killers. Mass murderers also are prevalent in every racial stock, whether Caucasoid, Mongoloid or Negroid.

Secondly, 'racial profiling' cannot be done on a race for something such as being a serial killer. It would be absolutely impractical.

River, the figure is closer to 100%, when our caucasian population is 87%. This is a lopsided trend, and this is the focus of discussion.....why is this seemingly more endemic in our caucasian community?

I'll agree the number is likely higher, but unless significantly higher, the numbers are meaningless. Are whites more likely to be perps in a crime that involves seeing someone else as 'prey'? (As opposed to other races incarcerated at greater rates for other genres of crimes) Possibly, but wouldn't that mean it is because that are on the 'top of the food chain'?

[Temagami Scourge]

Mr. T. Fleabag

This is quite ridiculous. Firstly, mass murderers are different from serial killers. Mass murderers also are prevalent in every racial stock, whether Caucasoid, Mongoloid or Negroid.

Yes, across the world mass murderers can be of every persuasion, however, this discussion is focussed on our experience here in Canada, and so far, this problem has been almost exclusively in the caucasian community. Do you know of any factors in the caucasian Canadian community that could cause this problem?

Some people have mentioned mental issues as the root cause...in particular, Rue postulated that a mix of genes and learned behaviour could be one of the prime causes, and I'm inclined to agree. However, what behaviour would set off a mass killing? That seems to be one of the key questions.

Secondly, 'racial profiling' cannot be done on a race for something such as being a serial killer. It would be absolutely impractical.

Again, I disagree on the grounds that I don't believe in shrugging our collective responsibility off so cavalierly. I think that there must be something we can do to help our caucasian brothers and sisters. I don't think anything is out of reach if we really put our heads together and talked this issue through.

Besides, the U.S. has already long profiled serial killers. I believe Betsy already has a link to that in an earlier post on this thread.

I'll agree the number is likely higher, but unless significantly higher, the numbers are meaningless. Are whites more likely to be perps in a crime that involves seeing someone else as 'prey'? (As opposed to other races incarcerated at greater rates for other genres of crimes) Possibly, but wouldn't that mean it is because that are on the 'top of the food chain'?

What do you mean when you say the numbers need to be significantly higher? How can anyone know where the "line" is? Even Ipsos-Reid uses the +/- 4% as their range, but the range between 87% and 100% is 13%...three times Ipsos. To me, that is a very significant difference. The "the top of the food chain" comment is another postulation. For example, if you were brought up to believe that the world is your oyster and you can do anything you set your heart to if you work hard at it, and then lose a job to a woman or a minority person, could the resulting feeling of emasculation act as a trigger? Is that a resonable hypothesis or nothing at all?

Does that make sense Theo? you're bringing up some good points, though.

[Argus]

Like many people here, I firmly believe that racial profiling is required in a number of cases. Specifically in instances of mass murder and serial killing.

Although only 87% of Canada's population is of Euro-Canadian extraction, they make up 100% of Canada's serial killers and mass murderers. We must ask ourselves: What can we do to assist our Euro-Canadian brethren overcome this insidious desire to stalk and murder, or just blow up one day and kill a bunch of people at a workplace, or other public venue?

How can the non-Euro-Canadian population help our brothers and sisters? How can we protect ourselves from wanton acts of slaughter?

Additionally, do not think for a minute that this thread is here to bash our Euro-Canadian population. They have done a number of wonderful things that have made Canada great, and although they may be prone to serial killing and mass murder, we can't let the actions of a few represent the abilities of the many.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this grave matter?

Flamebait - def

Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in. (This is not to be confused with tweaking someone.)

There are various motives or explanations for this behavior. The most popular is the desire for attention and the desire for entertainment at the expense of others. Posted flamebait can provide the posting party with a controlled trigger-and-response setting in which to engage in conflicts and indulge aggressive behavior anonymously, without facing the consequences those behaviors would certainly bring to bear in real life. In other instances, flamebait may be used to reduce a forum's use by angering forum users. - from Wikopedia

This is no doubt a response to the moderator ending the last thread on which you railed against the Gwynn Morgan's statement about Jamaican crime and called everyone a racist.

Flamebaiting is not allowed on this site and I have reported this thread to the moderator.

[betsy]

Betsy:

Do you mean the " good christians" who think they're Christians...sodomizing their way through every orphanages? And the "good christians" who think they're Christians...abusing and wielding their power over the minorities? And also the chieftains (are they christians btw) who had forsaken and mistreated their own people, and instead lining their own pockets? Yep. They don't fall under the category of "serial killers."

As I was saying earlier, if you and Rue want to discuss the Christian impact on Aboriginal people, then start a thread saying so and don't start a tangent here, please. To be honest, what you are saying is interesting, and i'd be happy to join you in conversation, but we just can't do it here.

s'allright?

Sorry.

[betsy]

Some people have mentioned mental issues as the root cause...in particular, Rue postulated that a mix of genes and learned behaviour could be one of the prime causes, and I'm inclined to agree. However, what behaviour would set off a mass killing? That seems to be one of the key questions.

Again, I disagree on the grounds that I don't believe in shrugging our collective responsibility off so cavalierly. I think that there must be something we can do to help our caucasian brothers and sisters. I don't think anything is out of reach if we really put our heads together and talked this issue through.

Besides, the U.S. has already long profiled serial killers. I believe Betsy already has a link to that in an earlier post on this thread.

The "the top of the food chain" comment is another postulation. For example, if you were brought up to believe that the world is your oyster and you can do anything you set your heart to if you work hard at it, and then lose a job to a woman or a minority person, could the resulting feeling of emasculation act as a trigger? Is that a resonable hypothesis or nothing at all?

Look, as you've said the US had already long profiled serial killers. With all the advanced technology and available resources to them, you'd think that they'd already come upon a solution or a way to stop anyone or at least prevent any of these killings.

Just about anything could set off or trigger a serial or mass murderer. It could just be the way somebody looked at him the "wrong way". Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person at a particular time. Stress...getting fired...splitting up with a partner. Remember the killer in the bus transpo maintenance who was apparently teased often by his co-workers?

But since we're trying to come up with ideas to help our brothers and sisters...here's my contribution. Perhaps we should consult Dionne Warwick?

[Temagami Scourge]

Argus:

Flamebaiting is not allowed on this site and I have reported this thread to the moderator.

Read through the majority of posts and you'll note that there actually is interesting and adult discussion going on here. We are maintaining a decorum. If the subject matter is too difficult for you, then don't participate.

We don't need people going off on tangents like on the Six Nations thread, and the moderator is aware of this thread.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy:

Look, as you've said the US had already long profiled serial killers. With all the advanced technology and available resources to them, you'd think that they'd already come upon a solution or a way to stop anyone or at least prevent any of these killings.

Just about anything could set off or trigger a serial or mass murderer. It could just be the way somebody looked at him the "wrong way". Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person at a particular time. Stress...getting fired...splitting up with a partner. Remember the killer in the bus transpo maintenance who was apparently teased often by his co-workers?

But since we're trying to come up with ideas to help our brothers and sisters...here's my contribution. Perhaps we should consult Dionne Warwick?

You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit?

[betsy]

Betsy:

Look, as you've said the US had already long profiled serial killers. With all the advanced technology and available resources to them, you'd think that they'd already come upon a solution or a way to stop anyone or at least prevent any of these killings.

Just about anything could set off or trigger a serial or mass murderer. It could just be the way somebody looked at him the "wrong way". Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person at a particular time. Stress...getting fired...splitting up with a partner. Remember the killer in the bus transpo maintenance who was apparently teased often by his co-workers?

But since we're trying to come up with ideas to help our brothers and sisters...here's my contribution. Perhaps we should consult Dionne Warwick?

You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit?

What bullying to some...may just be harmless kidding around. As I said, who knows what goes on in the minds of people at some given time (taking into consideration a lot of other factors involved...in other words, a typical "bad day" when everything seem to go wrong can just be the perfect trigger for someone who cannot handle the situation.) It could also be due to the mental imbalance, some may have perceived slight where actually none was intended. Perhaps, someone "carrying a chip on his shoulder" is a perfect symptom of someone who may be unable to face and deal with everyday life...and this could either trigger a mass murder....or for some, suicide.

Take for example suicide among the young people in the reserves or Indian communities. If I understand it correctly, you've got major problems with your youth. The high percentage in one population and environment compared to the rest of the country is indeed alarming. I bet factors that trigger mass murder could also trigger suicide.

[betsy]

Look, as you've said the US had already long profiled serial killers. With all the advanced technology and available resources to them, you'd think that they'd already come upon a solution or a way to stop anyone or at least prevent any of these killings.

If they cannot come up with a solution, with all the information, technology and resources they've got, what makes you think we can in this forum?

I'd like to hear what you've got to say about that part of my previous post.

[betsy]

Temagami,

Do you by any chance have any information at all about the mass murderers and serial killers in Canada?

I'm trying to find some but unable to.

That's the key, isn't it...in at least trying to understand the root causes of these murders in Canada. If this really interests you so much...then I suggest you should get a hold of most of the serial/mass muders data in Canadian history. Usually they give assumptions or known factors that have triggered the acts.

Then we can pick up and discuss from there.

[betsy]

You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit?

Bullying. The feeling of frustration. Feeling of Helplessness.

These all can trigger acts to do VIOLENCE to another. It need not be just to mass murder. But it is a trigger effect.

I was watching the newsclip regarding Caledonia (darn, it's hard to stay away from this ), and I could understand the feelings from both sides.

But as a member of the public....I was incensed by the fact that the protesters started to vandalise (and cause power outage). I put myself in the shoes of an ordinary citizen (regardless of whether I voted for a certain government or not...for a lot of ordinary folks are not political afficionados)...and I cannot help but emphatize with their feelings. Here you are, trying to make ends meet...trying to live your life, trekking out a living...and suddenly your business/income is affected. For some, unable to pay the bills on time can be a trigger for going ballistics!

As you know, violence erupted that day. You can say that the factors I mentioned above triggered a collective negative response.

How could we have stopped that? Sure....the answer need not be a mystery like the one trying to find a needle in a haystack for would-be serial killers/mass murderers. Several options could have prevented that violence in Caledonia. But none were taken.

[Argus]

Argus:

Flamebaiting is not allowed on this site and I have reported this thread to the moderator.

Read through the majority of posts and you'll note that there actually is interesting and adult discussion going on here. We are maintaining a decorum. If the subject matter is too difficult for you, then don't participate.

Please. I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place. However, given the rules of this forum I've been warned previously by the moderator for responding in kind to people who have little interest in anything other than insults and attitude. That's why I report such things now. If the moderator says race baiting is okay with him then I'll respond appropriately to you too.

[Temagami Scourge]

Argus:

Flamebaiting is not allowed on this site and I have reported this thread to the moderator.

Read through the majority of posts and you'll note that there actually is interesting and adult discussion going on here. We are maintaining a decorum. If the subject matter is too difficult for you, then don't participate.

Please. I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place. However, given the rules of this forum I've been warned previously by the moderator for responding in kind to people who have little interest in anything other than insults and attitude. That's why I report such things now. If the moderator says race baiting is okay with him then I'll respond appropriately to you too.

Argus; Will you please stick to the topic. If you want to villify me, then start a thread doing so. We do not want a repeat of the name-calling from the Six Nations web, so please either help out or stay out. The choice is entirely yours.

[Riverwind]

River, the figure is closer to 100%, when our caucasian population is 87%. This is a lopsided trend, and this is the focus of discussion.....why is this seemingly more endemic in our caucasian community?

The number of 'serial murder' crimes is so small that you cannot draw any conclusions from the exact percentage. From a statistical perspective 80% is the same as 87% when the sample size is small. In other words, there is not enough evidence to draw the conclusion that whites are 'over represented' in this crime category.

Forgive me, but I don't get what you are driving at in the above paragraph. Could you expand a bit?

In a perfect world it would not be possible to associate crime with specific ethnic groups because the criminals would be randomly distributed across the population.

Treating all "white" men as serial killers is racial profiling, and that is one of the main points of this thread. Do you think its fair to do that or not?

When the washington sniper was running loose the police assumed they were dealing with a middle age white man. This meant that middle aged white men driving vans were much more likely to be stopped an questioned in the washington area at that time. I see no problem with the way the police conducted their investigation even though they eventually discovered that the culperate was black.

That said, there is always a danger that police get tunnel vision when the investigate a crime and spend too much time on suspects that fit the 'profile'. Therefore, I don't agree that police should rely exclusively on racial profiling in their investigation. Racial profiling is a tool and not a replacement for proper police work.

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

The number of 'serial murder' crimes is so small that you cannot draw any conclusions from the exact percentage. From a statistical perspective 80% is the same as 87% when the sample size is small. In other words, there is not enough evidence to draw the conclusion that whites are 'over represented' in this crime category.

The number may be small, but the impact is very substantive on society. No one wants to go to work only to find out that they guy two bus seats down just pulled a gun from under his clothing...in much the same way as all those people who went to work at the WTC on 911 didn't expect to die at the hands of radicals. Even using 911 as a non-Canadian example, the U.S. governemtn has put in place all manner of measures to keep planes from flying into buildings...and that occurs far, far less than a mass murder.

I do understand what you mean about a lack of evidence on a statistical basis, but look at the photos of our serial killers and mass murderers since 1950, and they are all caucasian, with the exception of Lepine, who was half caucasian and half-Algerian. No matter how we want to slice or dice things, this issue resides in one portion of our population.

In a perfect world it would not be possible to associate crime with specific ethnic groups because the criminals would be randomly distributed across the population.

In essence, are you making the point that racial profiling is not a good way of going of addressing crime?

When the washington sniper was running loose the police assumed they were dealing with a middle age white man. This meant that middle aged white men driving vans were much more likely to be stopped an questioned in the washington area at that time. I see no problem with the way the police conducted their investigation even though they eventually discovered that the culperate was black.

Nor I, but the important point was stopping white vans, not who the driver was. A profiler might say it is likely a caucasian perpetrator, but the main point is "likely". I don't think this is example enough to say racial profiling works...especially when caucasians and hispanics could pass for one another from a distance.

But on another note, when the Washington shootings were happening, my profile of the killer was that it was someone with military training in sniping, and that there were likely two of them because military snipers work in teams, and whoever was doing the killing was far too successful to be a "lone" gunman. Race and color were irrelevant.

That said, there is always a danger that police get tunnel vision when the investigate a crime and spend too much time on suspects that fit the 'profile'. Therefore, I don't agree that police should rely exclusively on racial profiling in their investigation. Racial profiling is a tool and not a replacement for proper police work.

I think this is the most serious problem with using racial profiling. As I' said on other threads, the net gets cast too wide, and not every person stopped is treated with respect. It doesn't take much to start public/police animosity, and racial profiling doesn't ad to that.

Do bear in mind that when we are talking about profiling, we aren't talking about descriptions. If someone posts a picture of a wanted felon on T.V., that is not profiling. Having someone else come on T.V. after wards and say that the felon's entire community is prone to crime, then that;s profiling.

Thanks for the input River.