Redeploy Spare Industrial Capacity to Major Infrastructure Program

[Zeitgeist]

Rather than allowing mass layoffs and shutdowns to take place due to tariff-related reduced U.S. demand for our steel, aluminum, and other products, Canada should seize the opportunity to modernize its infrastructure, including (but not limited to) the following:

• high speed rail along the Quebec-Windsor corridor
• increased military production (perhaps including replacing the F-35's, apart from the 16 already purchased, with made-in-Canada options)
• Canada East and other pipelines that are not U.S.-bound
• refineries to produce gasoline using Alberta heavy crude
• incentivize Canadian companies to upgrade facilities (helping improve productivity)

This is a much better long and short-term strategy for transitioning from dependence on the U.S. than simply paying people to stay home as they are thrown out of jobs and production is slashed.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[ExFlyer]

What "spare industrial capacity" do we have in Canada?

Easy philosophical thing to say but, in reality it means zero.

1. High speed rail??? In Canada? What northern country has high speed rail?? Oh, non? Maybe there is a reason And we need the electric capacity and infrastructure. LOL

2. We have zero high technology business , engineering capability, design ability to manufacture state of the art military equipment.

3. We have provinces that will not allow pipelines thought it's territory (BC and Quebec). The feds had to take over the LNG pipeline in BC but the indigenous are still protesting.

4. You realize refineries don't just pop up, they can take decades to build and ...well, we Canadians are a bunch of NIMBY's.

5. How can you incentivize companies when they cannot make products to compete. Our wage and benefit and regulations and material cost do not make it profitable for companies. That is why they left Canada.

 

Anyway, nice to philosophize LOL

 

Edited March 15 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Rather than allowing mass layoffs and shutdowns to take place due to tariff-related reduced U.S. demand for our steel, aluminum, and other products, Canada should seize the opportunity to modernize its infrastructure, including (but not limited to) the following:

• high speed rail along the Quebec-Windsor corridor
• increased military production (perhaps including replacing the F-35's, apart from the 16 already purchased, with made-in-Canada options)
• Canada East and other pipelines that are not U.S.-bound
• refineries to produce gasoline using Alberta heavy crude
• incentivize Canadian companies to upgrade facilities (helping improve productivity)

This is a much better long and short-term strategy for transitioning from dependence on the U.S. than simply paying people to stay home as they are thrown out of jobs and production is slashed.

even if Canada had the political will and industrial capacity to pull that off, which it doesn't,

that would be insignificant in comparison to exporting into the $27 trillion American economy,

Edited March 15 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

24 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

What "spare industrial capacity" do we have in Canada?

Easy philosophical thing to say but, in reality it means zero.

1. High speed rail??? In canada? What norther country has high speed rail?? Oh, non? Maybe there is a reason LOL

2. We have zero high technology business , engineering , capability to desing and manufacture state of the art military equipment.

3. We have provinces that will not allow pipelines thought it's territory (BC and Quebec). Thefeds had to take over the LNG pipeline in BC but the indigenous are still protesting.

4. You realize refineries don't just pop up, they can take decades to build and ...well, we Canadians are a bunch of NIMBY's.

5. How can you incentivize companies when they cannot make products to compete.Our wage and benefit and regulations and marerial cost do not make it profitable for companies. That is why they left Canada.

 

Anyway, nice to philosophize LOL

 

So put everyone on welfare until the money runs out, our credit rating collapses, and the U.S. turns us into Puerto Rico north.  I think Quebecers and Indigenous might think quite differently about allowing pipelines and other projects in the face of a country that has zero interest in maintaining the French language or "asymmetrical federation" and zero interest in maintaining treaty obligations.

Canada has been an air, transport, energy, and agriculture innovator in the past.  I don't just mean Avro Arrow and strains of wheat that can handle cold weather.  Our country has been a major military exporter and that can easily be the case again.  The country that produced the St. Lawrence Seaway, the first major hydro plants, the first smart phones, invented and exported Candu nuclear reactors, and is the leading mining tech country is capable of a lot. We have aerospace engineers working at NASA, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.  We did foolishly let much of our aircraft and appliance manufacturing be bought out or abandoned (McDonnell Douglas, etc.).  There's more aluminium capacity just in Quebec than in the entire U.S.  Ontario's steelworks have supplied the production of just about any appliance and vehicle you can imagine, right out of Hamilton, Ontario.

The other options are to let the Americans outpace us economically and exploit us as their resource supplier, or, we give up our sovereignty and become a state.  Independence, even in an economic union, requires the ability to defend and supply the domestic economy with enough modern infrastructure, goods, and services to be able to raise the drawbridge against adversaries.  If we can't manage that then it's unlikely we can survive pressures on our exports to the U.S.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So put everyone on welfare until the money runs out, our credit rating collapses, and the U.S. turns us into Puerto Rico north.  I think Quebecers and Indigenous might think quite differently about allowing pipelines and other projects in the face of a country that has zero interest in maintaining the French language or "asymmetrical federation" and zero interest in maintaining treaty obligations.

Canada has been an air, transport, energy, and agriculture innovator in the past.  I don't just mean Avro Arrow and strains of wheat that can handle cold weather.  Our country has been a major military exporter and that can easily be the case again.  The country that produced the St. Lawrence Seaway, the first major hydro plants, the first smart phones, invented and exported Candu nuclear reactors, and is the leading mining tech country is capable of a lot. We have aerospace engineers working at NASA, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.  There's more aluminium capacity just in Quebec than in the entire U.S.  Ontario's steelworks have supplied the production of just about any appliance and vehicle you can imagine, right out of Hamilton, Ontario.

The other options are to let the Americans grow their economy and exploit us, or, we give up our sovereignty and become a state.  Independence, even in an economic union, requires the ability to defend and supply the domestic economy with enough modern infrastructure, goods, and services to be able to raise the drawbridge against adversaries.  If we can't manage that then it's unlikely we can survive pressures on our exports to the U.S.

America has the power to destroy Canada, without using any military force at all,

doesn't matter how butt hurt Canadians are about that fact,

Canada's only hope is to find a way to appease the Americans,

otherwise, it's like being Poland in the Second World War ; there's no way to fight and win

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

America has the power to destroy Canada, without using any military force at all,

doesn't matter how butt hurt Canadians are about that fact,

Canada's only hope is to find a way to appease the Americans,

otherwise, it's like being Poland in the Second World War ; there's no way to fight and win

 

So then the only answer according to you and Exflyer is for Canada to give up and become 51st state as soon as possible.

[ExFlyer]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

So put everyone on welfare until the money runs out, our credit rating collapses, and the U.S. turns us into Puerto Rico north.  I think Quebecers and Indigenous might think quite differently about allowing pipelines and other projects in the face of a country that has zero interest in maintaining the French language or "asymmetrical federation" and zero interest in maintaining treaty obligations.

Canada has been an air, transport, energy, and agriculture innovator in the past.  I don't just mean Avro Arrow and strains of wheat that can handle cold weather.  Our country has been a major military exporter and that can easily be the case again.  The country that produced the St. Lawrence Seaway, the first major hydro plants, the first smart phones, invented and exported Candu nuclear reactors, and is the leading mining tech country is capable of a lot. We have aerospace engineers working at NASA, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.  There's more aluminium capacity just in Quebec than in the entire U.S.  Ontario's steelworks have supplied the production of just about any appliance and vehicle you can imagine, right out of Hamilton, Ontario.

The other options are to let the Americans grow their economy and exploit us, or, we give up our sovereignty and become a state.  Independence, even in an economic union, requires the ability to defend and supply the domestic economy with enough modern infrastructure, goods, and services to be able to raise the drawbridge against adversaries.  If we can't manage that then it's unlikely we can survive pressures on our exports to the U.S.

Don't be so dramatic LOL

Smell reality. We have done this to ourselves and the hole we dug is extremely deep.

Sure, you (and others) can say anything you want but you for sure do not understand or can grasp what is realistic and what is pie in the sky fantasy.

Indigenous and Quebecers are also only self serving. Indigenous teat suckers since day one and Quebecer only think of nothing but themselves. They could help Canada by using their US electricity exports as a threat but they have said they will not.

Canada has not been "air, transport, energy, and agriculture innovator in the past". Canada has participated, been a partner but has not accomplished much on it's own. It has only exported military equipment during war times when all factories reverted to making war supplies

We are a resource rich country that exports raw material and imports finished product back.

We have (had) smart people but they went where they were being paid for their knowledge and inovativness.

I served this country as a career and I am very aware and knowledgeable about our capacity and ability.

Would I like us to do better and be better? For sure. Am I optimistic that our society would delve into areas that make us better and more independent? Not sure... as long as they don't have to give anything up ...maybe but who will cough up the dollars to make it happen? Remember the old expression "the governemtn cannot give anyone anything unless it first takes from someone else".

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So then the only answer according to you and Exflyer is for Canada to give up and become 51st state as soon as possible.

See, you put false words into others mouthes

Canadians have always compromised and we will continue to do so.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

So then the only answer according to you and Exflyer is for Canada to give up and become 51st state as soon as possible.

again, think about Poland in the Second World War ; sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time ;

with no good options for fighting,

Canada is in no man's land between America & China, like Poland was caught between Germany & Russia,

I don't have a solution to that problem ; it's Kobayashi Maru

basically Canada will just have to hope that America changes course at some point soon

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Don't be so dramatic LOL

Smell reality. We have done this to ourselves and the hole we dug is extremely deep.

Sure, you (and others) can say anything you want but you for sure do not understand or can grasp what is realistic and what is pie in the sky fantasy.

Indigenous and Quebecers are also only self serving. Indigenous teat suckers since day one and Quebecer only think of nothing but themselves. They could help Canada by using their US electricity exports as a threat but they have said they will not.

Canada has not been "air, transport, energy, and agriculture innovator in the past". Canada has participated, been a partner but has not accomplished much on it's own. It has only exported military equipment during war times when all factories reverted to making war supplies

We are a resource rich country that exports raw material and imports finished product back.

We have (had) smart people but they went where they were being paid for their knowledge and inovativness.

I served this country as a career and I am very aware and knowledgeable about our capacity and ability.

Would I like us to do better and be better? For sure. Am I optimistic that our society would delve into areas that make us better and more independent? Not sure... as long as they don't have to give anything up ...maybe but who will cough up the dollars to make it happen? Remember the old expression "the governemtn cannot give anyone anything unless it first takes from someone else".

 

 

 

 

I know quite a bit about these topics as well for very different reasons.  While it is harder for a smaller yet highly educated and skilled country like Canada to hold its own against Behemoth America, we can't keep falling back on the "We're a small natural resource country" excuse anymore.  Canada is fast approaching the population size necessary to provide enough economy of scale to justify producing goods in every major industry for its own market AND friendly export markets.  Of course it's overwhelminingly likely that much of our export production will continue to flow to the U.S., but it isn't because the U.S. is doing Canada a big favour and doesn't need our goods (Trump is entirely disingenous in this).  To the contrary, we can produce energy, fertilizer, and rare and important resources more bountifully and cheaply than just about anywhere in the world.  In fact, Canada has the advantage of either relying on exporting natural resources or producing our own value-added cutting edge manufactured items.  Don't believe the hype.  Trump knows the value of what we have, which is why he's so fixated on Canada.  It would be a huge net gain for the U.S. to acquire Canada.

If the cost of maintaining our independence, even in an economic union, is modernizing our transportation, energy, and military, it's well worth the price, especially since we have to replace our lost production capacity due to new U.S. tariffs.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

again, think about Poland in the Second World War ; sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time ;

with no good options for fighting,

Canada is in no man's land between America & China, like Poland was caught between Germany & Russia,

I don't have a solution to that problem ; it's Kobayashi Maru

basically Canada will just have to hope that America changes course at some point soon

Strong countries don't put their futures in the hands of other countries.  Canada has to act in its own interests proactively, innovating and supporting its economy.  We must stop waiting for the U.S. to change course, as it may never happen.  The resilient long-term strategy is to proof our economy against potential foreign adversaries.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If the cost of maintaining our independence, even in an economic union, is modernizing our transportation, energy, and military, it's well worth the price, especially since we have to replace our lost production capacity due to new U.S. tariffs.

you can't spend decades failing to do these things,

then all of a sudden in a crisis turn that ship around on a dime,

just to undo the damage to the Canadian military, that would take 20 years of spending 5% GDP on defence

and it would require buying many billions of dollars worth of kit from the Americans to do so,

the Europeans don't actually have the defence industrial capacity to save themselves and save Canada too

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Strong countries don't put their futures in the hands of other countries. 

Canada is not a strong country and never was,

all of Canada's strength flowed from the British Empire,

why do you think Canadians fought the World Wars ?

Canada had to save the Empire to save itself

Edited March 15 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I know quite a bit about these topics as well for very different reasons.  While it is harder for a smaller yet highly educated and skilled country like Canada to hold its own against Behemoth America, we can't keep falling back on the "We're a small natural resource country" excuse anymore.  Canada is fast approaching the population size necessary to provide enough economy of scale to justify producing goods in every major industry for its own market AND friendly export markets.  Of course it's overwhelminingly likely that much of our export production will continue to flow to the U.S., but it isn't because the U.S. is doing Canada a big favour and doesn't need our goods (Trump is entirely disingenous in this).  To the contrary, we can produce energy, fertilizer, and rare and important resources more bountifully and cheaply than just about anywhere in the world.  In fact, Canada has the advantage of either relying on exporting natural resources or producing our own value-added cutting edge manufactured items.  Don't believe the hype.  Trump knows the value of what we have, which is why he's so fixated on Canada.  It would be a huge net gain for the U.S. to acquire Canada.

If the cost of maintaining our independence, even in an economic union, is modernizing our transportation, energy, and military, it's well worth the price, especially since we have to replace our lost production capacity due to new U.S. tariffs.

Not going to argue with you but I am much more optimistic than your doom and gloom outlook.

Enjoy your misery

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We must stop waiting for the U.S. to change course, as it may never happen. 

I'm not particularly concerned about it,

I grew up in the Globalized Post National State in downtown Toronto,

so I've never relied on Canadian industrial output for my prosperity,

frankly, Toronto is already like the 51st State right now, the most American place in all of Canada,

they tore down Queen Victoria & John A. MacDonald in favour of Sankofa Square,

so what is it that I would even be fighting against the Americans for ?

[Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you can't spend decades failing to do these things,

then all of a sudden in a crisis turn that ship around on a dime,

just to undo the damage to the Canadian military, that would take 20 years of spending 5% GDP on defence

and it would require buying many billions of dollars worth of kit from the Americans to do so,

the Europeans don't actually have the defence industrial capacity to save themselves and save Canada too

Canada is not a strong country and never was,

all of Canada's strength flowed from the British Empire,

why do you think Canadians fought the World Wars ?

Canada had to save the Empire to save itself

Sorry Dougie, you and I disagree on this.  Canadians fought and produced armaments in the World Wars.  Canada should've got a permanent seat on the Security Council for its outsized contributions that helped liberate Europe.  France was gifted that permanent seat.  Canada contributed a million soldiers to WW1.  We have a very proud history of great accomplishments across industries, perhaps more so per capita than any country in the world.  Canada is a tremendous success story for many reasons.  We are a more harmonious, less violent, healthier and better educated society than the United States.  If the cost of preserving the Canadian way of life is spending more on military and upgrading our production and infrastructure, it's a price worth paying, no matter how long it takes. I think that most Canadians would agree with that.  I say that as someone who loves going to the U.S. and owns property there.

Keep in mind that Canada is a safeguard against American excesses in many ways, because we are the ever-present alternative.  We can also continue to be the major suppier of items that the U.S. needs to maintain its high living standards and competitiveness.

I think that the political answer to these problems, apart from something like the infrastructure program that I described, which is also necessary, is to maintain our sovereignty within an economic union with the U.S. with the free movement of goods, services, and people.  There would be some compromises to make that happen, but not nearly as many as would be necessary if Canada was to become a state, which would require major political realignment in U.S. government and a loss of the services, safety, and self-determination that Canadians value.  Nevertheless, there are costs to true independence which Canadians have been avoiding.  We simply don't have a choice anymore but to pay them or let sovereign Canada go.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not particularly concerned about it,

I grew up in the Globalized Post National State in downtown Toronto,

so I've never relied on Canadian industrial output for my prosperity,

frankly, Toronto is already like the 51st State right now, the most American place in all of Canada,

they tore down Queen Victoria & John A. MacDonald in favour of Sankofa Square,

so what is it that I would even be fighting against the Americans for ?

I think that too sometimes.  Like, is it really about America versus Canada or is it more about appreciating national identity and way of life versus trying to tear it down in a woke revolution?  Nevertheless, Canada and the U.S. are not the same.  The challenge is to figure out how to keep what we value in the best economic arrangement.  Really that's it.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sorry Dougie, you and I disagree on this.  Canadians fought and produced armaments in the World Wars. 

no need to apologize, I'm a disagreeable person by nature

but Canada was dependant on America & Britain to do all that,

Canada did not win the war singlehandedly, Canada was a bit player,

Canada did nothing on its own, Canada did everything under British command, funded by America

even Britain was dwarfed in the end, by the Americans & Soviets,

Edited March 15 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think that too sometimes.  Like, is it really about America versus Canada or is it more about appreciating national identity and way of life versus trying to tear it down in a woke revolution? 

Canada doesn't have a national identity,

Canada was British,

then when the British Empire collapsed, Canada adopted an American identity

Canada's identity since the 1970's is to be the Wokest most Progressive virtue signalling state on earth,

and that was all imported from American universities,

[Zeitgeist]

42 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 

 

See, you put false words into others mouthes

Canadians have always compromised and we will continue to do so.

No I don't put false words in anyone's mouths.  

I'm not being pessimistic either.  I would simply say that Canadians may want to compromise but might not be given much choice, unless we can protect our interests and bargain from a position of strength, so what course of action will make us stronger?  The status quo makes us vulnerable.

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Nevertheless, Canada and the U.S. are not the same.

only because there are no Republicans in Canada,

 otherwise, Canada is in effect already the 51st State,

Canada is simply a Democrat Party Blue State therein,

Canadians & Democrats are indistinguishable from each other

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 The challenge is to figure out how to keep what we value in the best economic arrangement.  Really that's it.

I'm not part of this collective, whatever it is you believe it to be,

I did in effect what Canada told me to do ;

stop being British, we're not British anymore, become a Globalized citizen, Citoyen du Monde

now all of a sudden Canada wants to take that back ?  Suddenly Canada is waving the War of 1812 in my face ?

sorry, Canada;  too late now

[Zeitgeist]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada doesn't have a national identity,

Canada was British,

then when the British Empire collapsed, Canada adopted an American identity

Canada's identity since the 1970's is to be the Wokest most Progressive virtue signalling state on earth,

and that was all imported from American universities,

But it was never just British, though I'd agree that we have undervalued that significant part of our history and identity.  I agree that we were staunch defenders of the British Empire, but Canada evolved into other things, not always for the better.  Pearson's foreign policy and peacekeeping was a strength and won him the Nobel.  Trudeau Sr.'s Multiculturalism was a way of making Canada more outward-looking and cosmopolitain while containing Quebec ethno-nationalism, but it has eroded Canada's cultural identity too, especially recently through mass immigration and woke radicalism.  The reduction in our military has made Canada vulnerable, and that has taken place over generations.  We've also had to contend with U.S. pressures around Vietnam and Iraq and had to needle our own approaches, again for better and worse.

Canada has also become too beholden to unaccountable international bodies, especially around climate and Indigenous matters, which has really kicked our economy and national pride in the teeth.  All the way along, since WW2 for sure, we have become more dependent on exports to the U.S. and major parts of Canada have become more Americanized, again for better and worse.  Now we're seeing why it's not good to be too beholden to a foreign power. Actually we experienced this with Britain a century ago, only it wasn't that Britain became hostile. They just became too distracted by their own problems.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But it was never just British, though I'd agree that we have undervalued that significant part of our history and identity.  I agree that we were staunch defenders of the British Empire, but Canada evolved into other things,

Canada has burned everything I ever swore to defend and uphold with my life as necessary, to the ground

as a result I no longer feel anything in my heart for Canada,

there's no coming back from that, it's not my Canada anymore

I don't even watch hockey anymore, I don't even root for the Leafs anymore,

Canada is the Post National State now, merely a tax jurisdiction in a globalized economy

and it was Canada which imposed those terms upon me,

if others are keen to kill & die for American Woke Progressivism ; Remember Sankofa Square ?

be my guest, it's not my problem

[ExFlyer]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No I don't put false words in anyone's mouths.  

I'm not being pessimistic either.  I would simply say that Canadians may want to compromise but might not be given much choice, unless we can protect our interests and bargain from a position of strength, so what course of action will make us stronger?  The status quo makes us vulnerable.

Yes, you said "So then the only answer according to you and Exflyer is for Canada to give up and become 51st state as soon as possible." when neither I nor doogie said or insinuated any of that.

Yes you are pessimistic. Nothing seems to be OK with you and your posts in this thread.

We do have a position of strength but seemingly do not want to use it..... yet.  We can prove the falsehoods being said and we have the hammer on electricity and oil but are hesitant or unwilling or unable to use it.

Stronger? 

[ExFlyer]

23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

only because there are no Republicans in Canada,

 otherwise, Canada is in effect already the 51st State,

Canada is simply a Democrat Party Blue State therein,

Canadians & Democrats are indistinguishable from each other

But there are conservatives that have sympathy and agree with much of trump said....until recently when he slapped us in the face.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Yes, you said "So then the only answer according to you and Exflyer is for Canada to give up and become 51st state as soon as possible." when neither I nor doogie said or insinuated any of that.

Yes you are pessimistic. Nothing seems to be OK with you and your posts in this thread.

We do have a position of strength but seemingly do not want to use it..... yet.  We can prove the falsehoods being said and we have the hammer on electricity and oil but are hesitant or unwilling or unable to use it.

Stronger? 

So you’re contradicting yourself.  On one hand you say the U.S. can crush us at any moment economically, yet you cite our electricity and oil.  Which is it?