Conservatives blowing it

[shoop]

What a semantic joke this post was?

This is all conjecture. Unless John Reid actually comes out and says this so-called partisanism is true than people can't say with 100% certainty that "John Reid criticism of the Accountability Act has been exposed for the partisan farce" is true. I'm not saying that "Paul Martin's pathetic dithering while PM" was the correct course either. " And regarding blowing it as sad and lame, well another recent thread here is labelled "Liberals sink to new low." I'm not going to criticize it and say its "sad and lame." I'll respect her opinion, no matter if I do or do not support that view. In my opinion, they are blowing it...notice I haven't said blown it. Thye still have an opportunity to change my opinion and many more people's opinion as well.

Are you proving anything by pointing out the obvious?

Do any of us care about your "oh so clever" attempts to justify your attacks by talking about respecting people's opinion?

Your talk about respect would have a lot more credence if you didn't end the OP with this quote?

*Waiting for the right wingers here to pounch, they will defend the Conservatives right to the bitter end, no matter how bad the decisions made by the Conservatives are*

Sounds a little antagonistic for someone who 'respects' other people's opinion.

[Rovik]

Maybe it is true but it's so typical of the English media's approach to Harper. They always sell the guy short. There's always a dig that he's going to fail, bungle, get it wrong - that his true colours will appear, that the Tory caucus will blow up, that Canadians won't like him.

This maybe true for some of the Canadian media especially central Canada. Part of this is that Harper did have more "extreme" views such as when he was head of the NCC. Many may believe that these views will resurface again in the future and that the reason why he is keeping them under wraps is the fact that the Conservatives don't have a majority. At the same time, the Western Canadian media has always been on Harper's side (for the most part.) Just like they have been critical of Martin and the Liberals when they were in power, and rightly so in many cases.

The Tories are doing well in the polls and the government has not been the disaster many were expecting it to be. On the contrary, Harper has been running a tight ship. He is excelling at the very thing the Liberals always claimed to be: competent.

Yes, he has been successful in keeping the more colourful caucus members silent to the media as well as keeping the media at bay overall. Because of this approach, many see him as dictatorial. Time will see if he is successful or not.

Are you proving anything by pointing out the obvious?

Do any of us care about your "oh so clever" attempts to justify your attacks by talking about respecting people's opinion?

Your talk about respect would have a lot more credence if you didn't end the OP with this quote?

*Waiting for the right wingers here to pounch, they will defend the Conservatives right to the bitter end, no matter how bad the decisions made by the Conservatives are*

Sounds a little antagonistic for someone who 'respects' other people's opinion.

Yes, it may be obvious but it is true.

The reason I added that quote is because in my experience of posting and reading other posts, I have seen such attacks on a regular basis. Of course I should have qualifed that quote by saying some right wingers not all. And yes, I do admit there may be some left wingers who do the same

[Michael Hardner]

That's the scary/Nazi Harper schtick again.

"Harper's a nice guy now but wait until you see the real Harper!"

As I pointed out, Conservatives are saying the same thing as I am. Do you really think that we're going to continue with policies straight down the centre under a Harper majority ?

Look, if there is anything one can conclude about Harper's relatively short career so far it is that everyone (meaning Toronto's English media) underestimates the guy. He has been consistently counted out, and then he succeeds. As recently as September 2005 (that's about eight months ago), the media said there was a movement afoot with in the Conservative Party to ditch Harper because he was unelectable.

So, when I read a thread heading that says "Conservatives blowing it", I'm prepared to discount it. Indeed, the polls show the Conservatives in majority territory.

If this is called blowing it, then I say Harper should keep on blowing it.

I'm not one of those people who believes in a media conspiracy. I don't think that the English-Canadian media get together in some bar in Toronto and decide a storyline. But Harper seems to be a hockey arena, Tim Hortons sort of guy and the English media patronizes such people.

In truth, Harper has been able to go over the media's heads directly to the kind of people who may vote for him. They are starting to get to know Harper and they are comfortable with the way he is. I know I am just talking about style when in fact Harper's style has been to get things done in a straightforward way. His style is the content.

Going over the media's heads would be an interesting tack, but he's just been on the sidelines for a few issues. The ad men will tell you that it's political suicide. Maybe, though, it will work for him.

Canadians are still far from getting to know the Tory cabinet ministers and feeling comfortable with them (we will discover more about Flaherty next week) and Harper is still far from winning a majority in an election. But this is now in the realm of possibility.

The thread's title is just wrong.

[shoop]

You *said* the Conservative supporters were agreeing with your assertion, but you didn't provide any support for that.

Harper has been working with local media instead of the National Press Gallery.

There was a good discussion on this week's Question Period about the media issue. Because Harper has been effective in dealing with the local media people are seeing him on the news. So when they see a story with Harper interviewed/speaking/answering questions, the following story about Harper avoiding the press really lacks a little credibility.

Who are these mythical "ad men" to whom you refer?

As I pointed out, Conservatives are saying the same thing as I am. Do you really think that we're going to continue with policies straight down the centre under a Harper majority ?

Going over the media's heads would be an interesting tack, but he's just been on the sidelines for a few issues. The ad men will tell you that it's political suicide. Maybe, though, it will work for him.

[Michael Hardner]

You *said* the Conservative supporters were agreeing with your assertion, but you didn't provide any support for that.

Yes, I did. I had no idea that anyone would challenge that as I remember reading a few posts that agreed with me. But... I took 15 minutes to look for some, and didn't find any.

I don't think what I'm saying is all that controversial, but I'll withdraw it until I can find some proof.

Harper has been working with local media instead of the National Press Gallery.

There was a good discussion on this week's Question Period about the media issue. Because Harper has been effective in dealing with the local media people are seeing him on the news. So when they see a story with Harper interviewed/speaking/answering questions, the following story about Harper avoiding the press really lacks a little credibility.

Who are these mythical "ad men" to whom you refer?

The ad men are the campaign advisors and advertising executives that manage slick campaigns such as the ones that the Liberals ran successfully four times, and unsuccessfully last time.

[Hicksey]

As I pointed out, Conservatives are saying the same thing as I am. Do you really think that we're going to continue with policies straight down the centre under a Harper majority ?

I sure hope not. This centrist BS isn't what I voted for.

[Michael Hardner]

Ok, Shoop. There's the first example.

It has nothing to do with Harper's scariness (if the Liberals try that tack again, they'll go down even further) but with the realities of moving slowly in a political climate dominated by the centre-left for fifteen years or so.

[Guest Warwick Green]

The Tories are leading in a Quebec poll, just ahead of the Bloc but miles ahead of the Libs at 15%. No wonder the Libs are down that low in Quebec. They have just had visits from the Harvard man, the failed NDP premier and the hockey player. Wait until Hedy Fry visits La Belle Province. The Libs will be in single digits.

[August1991]

The Conservatives are rapidly gaining support in Quebec and are now more popular than the province's separatist party, according to a new poll published on Tuesday.

The CROP poll for La Presse put the Conservatives at 34 percent in Quebec, up from the 25 percent the party won during the January 23 election. The separatist Bloc Quebecois, which a few months ago was flirting with 50 percent backing, dropped to 31 percent from 42 percent on January 23.

...

CROP also found that 56 percent of Quebecers were satisfied with the federal government, an enormous jump from the 22 percent recorded in a CROP poll from January 11 to 16 this year.

The survey of 1,002 people was carried out between April 20 and 30 and is considered to be accurate to within 2.3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

Reuters

This poll will have grave repercussions for the PQ and Boisclair.

[Michael Hardner]

This poll will have grave repercussions for the PQ and Boisclair.

And don't forget the reassurance factor for Ontarians. The better Harper does in Quebec, the more he appears to Ontarians to be a national leader, and the worse the problems get with the Liberals. If Quebec continues to respond to Harper's image and policies, then the Liberals will lose a major advantage over the CPC.

[Hicksey]

The thread's title is just wrong.

I agree. It would be more appropriately named "Liberals blowing hard."

It just laughable that conservatives would think that it matters that our political enemy thinks our leader is a failure. That stance is the status quo for whomever is the opposition. It's even funnier that someone would start this thread thinking that it should matter to a conservative that someone that didn't support our platform to begin with would consider following it through to be a failure.

If anything, this thread has given me a good hearty laugh. Thanks.

[August1991]

This poll will have grave repercussions for the PQ and Boisclair.

And don't forget the reassurance factor for Ontarians. The better Harper does in Quebec, the more he appears to Ontarians to be a national leader, and the worse the problems get with the Liberals. If Quebec continues to respond to Harper's image and policies, then the Liberals will lose a major advantage over the CPC.

True.

And this also means that the BQ will prefer to avoid an election now.

This poll doesn't surprise me but let's wait for another poll to confirm. Also, the Quebec support for the Tories is tenuous.

[shoop]

Ok, Shoop. There's the first example.

It has nothing to do with Harper's scariness (if the Liberals try that tack again, they'll go down even further) but with the realities of moving slowly in a political climate dominated by the centre-left for fifteen years or so.

Power to you. You threw out the bait and Hicksey fell for it. Interesting how only one poster did though. Isn't it?

And don't forget the reassurance factor for Ontarians. The better Harper does in Quebec, the more he appears to Ontarians to be a national leader, and the worse the problems get with the Liberals. If Quebec continues to respond to Harper's image and policies, then the Liberals will lose a major advantage over the CPC.

Agreed. Another interesting point. It has been 85 years since a party has won a majority without winning a majority of the seats in Parliament. Do Ontarians really want to be in that position?

If the CPC form their next Government with strong representatiion from the West and Quebec, without a majority of the seats in Ontario it will definitely mean less power for Ontarians in that Government. Is that a risk Ontario is willing to take?

[August1991]

Ok, Shoop. There's the first example.

It has nothing to do with Harper's scariness (if the Liberals try that tack again, they'll go down even further) but with the realities of moving slowly in a political climate dominated by the centre-left for fifteen years or so.

Power to you. You threw out the bait and Hicksey fell for it. Interesting how only one poster did though. Isn't it?

I'll fall for Michael's bait too and suggest that Harper is being partly centrist now.

The budget fulfils all the promises, and boosts defence spending. It has no weird, new expenditure measures (imagine an NDP budget!) but then it doesn't make any effort to reduce expenditures.

If the Tories had a majority, I'm sure the budget would be different. Once the population is comfortable with Harper, I think the Tories could cut expenditures but still stay popular in the polls. So what's "centrist"?

The NDP tail has been wagging a Liberal dog too long.

[Hicksey]

Ok, Shoop. There's the first example.

It has nothing to do with Harper's scariness (if the Liberals try that tack again, they'll go down even further) but with the realities of moving slowly in a political climate dominated by the centre-left for fifteen years or so.

Power to you. You threw out the bait and Hicksey fell for it. Interesting how only one poster did though. Isn't it?

Please pardon my ignorance, but what bait did I fall for?

[Michael Hardner]

Hicksey:

I had said that Harper was staying more centre-of-the-road until he gets a majority, and Shoop thought I was expressing that old "scary Harper" line. I said that even some Conservatives had agreed with my point, but that I couldn't find any examples. Then you stepped in.

Power to you. You threw out the bait and Hicksey fell for it. Interesting how only one poster did though. Isn't it?

Shoop:

I'm sure not above saying 'I told you so' but I'd rather be saying it with a bit of a bolder pronouncement than the one I made. I don't think there's anything wrong with what Harper is (or seems to be) doing. Doing anything else would be politically stupid.

Agreed. Another interesting point. It has been 85 years since a party has won a majority without winning a majority of the seats in Parliament. Do Ontarians really want to be in that position?

If the CPC form their next Government with strong representatiion from the West and Quebec, without a majority of the seats in Ontario it will definitely mean less power for Ontarians in that Government. Is that a risk Ontario is willing to take?

I think you meant to say 'seats in Ontario' in the first paragraph.

My guess is that Ontarians would feel uneasy over it at first, but also quietly relieved that the country is united on something at last (ie. being against Ontario). As the term progressed, the eastern press would spin a lot of policy as being anti-Ontario, especially program cuts that impact urban areas.

But in the end, if Harper shows leadership, vision and management ability he will get a mandate even from Ontario.

[Hicksey]

Hicksey:

I had said that Harper was staying more centre-of-the-road until he gets a majority, and Shoop thought I was expressing that old "scary Harper" line. I said that even some Conservatives had agreed with my point, but that I couldn't find any examples. Then you stepped in.

Power to you. You threw out the bait and Hicksey fell for it. Interesting how only one poster did though. Isn't it?

Oh, that. That wasn't me falling for anything. I'm hoping Harper's going to move right if he gets a majority. The current implementation of the CPC is more liberal than it is conservative.

[shoop]

Yes, that is what I meant to say.

I think if Ontarians see the writing on the wall, i.e. a potential CPC majority without a majority of the Ontario seats, you could very well see a number of centrist Ontario voters swing CPC.

That would be very magnanimous for the Ontarians to be happy about the country uniting about something. Alas, a majority CPC Government wouldn't be a vote against Ontario. But I could see how Ontarians would think that *everything* revolves around them.

I think you meant to say 'seats in Ontario' in the first paragraph.

My guess is that Ontarians would feel uneasy over it at first, but also quietly relieved that the country is united on something at last (ie. being against Ontario). As the term progressed, the eastern press would spin a lot of policy as being anti-Ontario, especially program cuts that impact urban areas.

But in the end, if Harper shows leadership, vision and management ability he will get a mandate even from Ontario.

[Michael Hardner]

I think if Ontarians see the writing on the wall, i.e. a potential CPC majority without a majority of the Ontario seats, you could very well see a number of centrist Ontario voters swing CPC.

That would be very magnanimous for the Ontarians to be happy about the country uniting about something. Alas, a majority CPC Government wouldn't be a vote against Ontario. But I could see how Ontarians would think that *everything* revolves around them.

Somebody (Auguste ?) pointed out here that Ontarians are least likely to identify with their province. They just think of themselves as Canadian. The rest of Canada is just that - the rest of Canada. As I have posted, I've never heard anybody in Ontario make an anti-West statement in casual conversation. Some westerners didn't believe me when I posted that awhile back, but it's still true to this day.

If Harper wins a majority with Quebec and the west, and a minority in Ontario then the anti-Harper sentiment in Ontario will be centred in Toronto where they will win the least seats. That sentiment will manifest itself under the banner of "urban concerns" or somesuch as programs that are popular in urban areas are changed by the new government.

In any case, if Harper can please Quebec AND the west, it shouldn't be that hard to please Toronto too should it ?

[shoop]

I spent 2 1/2 years in T.O. and heard lots of anti-western comments, especially when I identified myself as a Westerner.

Hmmm, maybe it would be hard to please Ontarians if the view is that Ontario isn't front and centre.

As I have posted, I've never heard anybody in Ontario make an anti-West statement in casual conversation. Some westerners didn't believe me when I posted that awhile back, but it's still true to this day.

If Harper wins a majority with Quebec and the west, and a minority in Ontario then the anti-Harper sentiment in Ontario will be centred in Toronto where they will win the least seats. That sentiment will manifest itself under the banner of "urban concerns" or somesuch as programs that are popular in urban areas are changed by the new government.

In any case, if Harper can please Quebec AND the west, it shouldn't be that hard to please Toronto too should it ?

[geoffrey]

I spent 2 1/2 years in T.O. and heard lots of anti-western comments, especially when I identified myself as a Westerner.

Hmmm, maybe it would be hard to please Ontarians if the view is that Ontario isn't front and centre.

As I have posted, I've never heard anybody in Ontario make an anti-West statement in casual conversation. Some westerners didn't believe me when I posted that awhile back, but it's still true to this day.

If Harper wins a majority with Quebec and the west, and a minority in Ontario then the anti-Harper sentiment in Ontario will be centred in Toronto where they will win the least seats. That sentiment will manifest itself under the banner of "urban concerns" or somesuch as programs that are popular in urban areas are changed by the new government.

In any case, if Harper can please Quebec AND the west, it shouldn't be that hard to please Toronto too should it ?

I used to make those comments all the time when I was from T.O.. After a few years out west though, wow, my opinion has changed. Ontario is very anti-West. They view us as more spectacularly weird than Quebecois. And that's hard to do.

Anyways, back onto the topic. Hicksey is right, he said the CPC is acting more Liberal than Conservative. Completely true. If I wanted another Liberal government, I would have voted for it.

It seems that the current CPC agenda is as right-wing as Canadians can tolerate. I doubt if we would shift far right in a majority situation. We will never have a liberalised economy under that attitude though, and Canada will continue to lag behind the world in productivie. Our business taxes remain higher then, of all places, Sweden's, for example.

Corporate tax cuts are a dirty word, increases in welfare are applauded and Canadians would rather see us pay China and Russia to cut emissions then do it ourselves cheaper. These are the beliefs of most Canadians, and their ignorance will end up limiting their potentials forever.

But oh well, that's how it goes. If or more accurately when, Harper wins his majority, I'll decide based upon that budget whether I remain in Canada or not. Whether that is advocating Alberta nationalism or moving South or to more business friendly South American or European countries (sad that those exist hey), I don't know. I just feel my future is so limited by the massive burden of our social culture of defeat, a lack of care about improving the system, and ignorant dogma's like private delivery in health, budget suprluses and attacking the province that is currently doing well to benefit those that refuse to do anything to change.

Check out a website of Stephen Harper quotes, the ones that the CPC doesn't want you to hear. Well guess what, those are the quotes I wish he would come out, say and defend. That is my view of whats going on this country.

I won't support Harper as long as he just acts a tad to the right of the Liberals. When we have a party with a real neo-liberal agenda, I'll vote for them. Hopefully the CPC makes some moves in that direction by next election, they can do this and still have the respect of majority ignorant folks if they do it right, and spin it right.

[Shakeyhands]

Somebody (Auguste ?) pointed out here that Ontarians are least likely to identify with their province. They just think of themselves as Canadian. The rest of Canada is just that - the rest of Canada. As I have posted, I've never heard anybody in Ontario make an anti-West statement in casual conversation. Some westerners didn't believe me when I posted that awhile back, but it's still true to this day.

I believe this to be a very true statment, I know I have said it here before. I am a Canadian who happens to be from Ontario, you are Canadians who happen to be from other provinces.

I'm not sure why Albertans (all Westerners?) feel the need to think that we don't "like" you or whatever the feeling du jour is... I really don't differentiate anyone, East or West or whatever...

[politika]

Though I was not a Conservative supporter, i still had high hopes for the Conservatives for cleaning up the government. But now it looks like the Conservatives might be just as bad (or even worse potentially) when it comes to accountibility. First it was the David Emerson and Senator Michael Fortier fiasco within the first few weeks of being elected and now it looks like Accountibilty Act that the Conservatives will push is full of holes that may make things worst than they all ready are.

It is not against the law to switch over parties, Belinda did it and many more MP's over the years since confederation have done it. It is all tradition.

Next they have gone the American way and decided to have barred media from covering fallen soldiers' return and not to have flags lowered to half mast. This to many Canadians is not respectful of what the soldier's sacrifice. One parent of a soldier who died criticized the Conservatives policy. Anyhow here is a link regarding the situation.

Why would you want to see dead soldiers being flown home, like really? No one needs to see that or has time to anyways so their should be no one complaing, now you probably don't wan't to suck up the reality of this but the flag keeping it waving high and not at half mass is a damn good idea, I think weekly a Canadian soldier is going to start dying very soon which will mean we will have to keep it at half mass all the time. I am sure the soldiers who died for Canada want us to keep our flag proudly lifted high and for our brave soldiers to keep on figting. Lets say we just stick to the tradition of lowering it on November 11th?

And now it seems that the Conservatives have made a bad deal re: softwood with the US. Sure, the US will even be able to keep 1 billion dollars of what many decisions by NAFO and WTO have said wasn't theirs and should be given back to Canada. Imagine if someone stole $50000 from you and even though the thief was told to give back all your money (continously), it was settled that he only had to give back $40000. Is this right? No.

Well what were the Liberals going to do? Sit back start a trade war and pay billions in legal fees? Money that is NOT refundable. 1 Billion is like pennies to the government and it is cheaper in the long run and now we can freely trade without being taxed making our manufacturers lose money and also our government wasting time and money on legal costs of a looming trade war. Yes

Agree?

[shoop]

This is why I support the CPC and do not think the party should swing massively to the right.

A centre-right party can win elections and stop travesties like Kyoto.

Of course we shouldn't be paying other countries to reduce their emissions on our behalf.

Sad that it took PM Harper to speak this truth. But a CPC that espouses true neo-Liberal economic and social policies will not win a general election.

Like I have said before, moral victories are for chumps. Keep up the good work Stephen!

Corporate tax cuts are a dirty word, increases in welfare are applauded and Canadians would rather see us pay China and Russia to cut emissions then do it ourselves cheaper. These are the beliefs of most Canadians, and their ignorance will end up limiting their potentials forever.

[cybercoma]

If nothing else, you have to give credit to Stephen Harper and the CPC for making decisions and following them through instead of playing the silly little PR games that we've become accustomed to.