A Freeman Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 7 minutes ago, User said: Except, that is not what he said. Hell, you don't even believe this unless you are sitting in a public library somewhere making these arguments from a public computer on public internet... But then again, where would that internet or computer come from that you are using if it were not for people creating them? Where would the money come from for those things if not for the people paying taxes on all their worldly riches... You keep using language very deceitfully. Notice how you changed it to "hoard" wealth? Eliminates poverty? Matthew 26:11 "For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me." Yet again, people can and do acquire wealth through legitimate means. They things they provide make lives better. Yes, in fact, there is. The entire concept of the kinds of property rights, freedom, democracy, we have today are entirely different and the upward mobility we have in our society because of these things is entirely different. Musk did not start out as the richest man alive, he was no where close to that when he started out. You're trying to argue that up is down and that black is white, etc., and it will NEVER work. Anyone who values their human life (including their wealth, relationships, and/or even their own extremely limited understanding of how the world works) above the true, spiritual life will never survive. John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that HATETH his life in this world shall keep it unto Life Eternal. Christ also told us no attorney (scribe) or politician (pharisee) would gain entrance to the Kingdom of God either (Matt. 5:20), for the very same reasons: they place their human existence above their true, spiritual (eternal) life. Quote
A Freeman Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 P.S. The "poor" is referring to the collective purse ("kitty") that Jesus and the disciples used to purchase what they needed to survive. S Matthew 26:7-11 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious "Oil of Anointment", and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat]. 26:8 But when his disciples saw [it], they had indignation, saying, To what purpose [is] this waste? 26:9 For this "Oil of Anointment" (spikenard, used to anoint the king) might have been sold for much, and given to the "poor" (their collective purse). 26:10 When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. Deuteronomy 15:1-6 15:1 At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. 15:2 And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it]; he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the "I AM"'s release. 15:3 Of a Gentile (someone who is not an Israelite) thou mayest exact [it again]: but [that] which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; 15:4 TO THE END THAT THERE BE NO POOR AMONG YOU; for the "I AM" shall greatly bless thee in the land which the "I AM" thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it: 15:5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the "I AM" thy God, to observe to do all these Commandments which I command thee this day. 15:6 For the "I AM" thy God blesseth thee, as He promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee [if ye keep The Covenant]. Quote
User Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 13 minutes ago, A Freeman said: You're deluding yourself if you believe that becoming filthy rich doesn't involve theft or that obscene wealth isn't consolidated. How am I deluding myself? You seem to have some irrational bent against Capitalism here and are mixing that in with butchering scripture. Question, are you even a Christian? No, wealth is not consolidated because wealth is not static. Wealth is created and more is constantly being created. 15 minutes ago, A Freeman said: The British monarch owns 1/6th of the planetary landmass valued in the tens of trillions of $, £, €, etc., on top of the rest of their holdings in businesses. If that wealth was redistributed among the people, the entire population would become millionaires overnight. Wow... you really have not done the math on that. Lets presume we are just talking about the population of UK, that is 68 Million people. Lets even reduce that to adults, that is around 40 Million. To make 40 million people millionaires, that is: 40 TRILLION dollars. The total estimated wealth of all of the United Kingdom, not even the monarchy, but every last dollar, is 15 Trillion. The other problem with that is much of that $$$ amount is not money sitting in some scrooge mcduck bank vault either. It is the VALUE of all the companies, everything. So, you can't redistribute that, without selling it all... and who is buying all of that? LOL, this is the problem with this fantasy thinking from folks like you. Quote
blackbird Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 2 hours ago, Black Dog said: Pretty much everyone goes to purgatory when they die, it's how they get purified before entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Not Prods though; it's straight to the flames for them! There is no purgatory in the Bible. That is an invention of men. You need to read the Bible, especially the New Testament. Quote
Black Dog Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 3 minutes ago, blackbird said: There is no purgatory in the Bible. That is an invention of men. You need to read the Bible, especially the New Testament. No it's in there, there's big sign on it saying "No Prots allowed" and everything. Quote
blackbird Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 9 minutes ago, Black Dog said: No it's in there, there's big sign on it saying "No Prots allowed" and everything. I can see you're not serious in your comments. Quote
Black Dog Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 28 minutes ago, blackbird said: I can see you're not serious in your comments. I'm as serious as you are. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 12 Author Report Posted February 12 22 hours ago, blackbird said: What you are saying is contrary to the whole Bible. You are misinterpreting it. Your interpretation contradicts countless verses through the whole Bible. Obviously, an interpretation on salvation must agree with the rest of the Bible. Here is the common Protestant and Biblical understanding of salvation: "V. Salvation Conditioned upon one Thing Alone In the New Testament in about one hundred and fifteen passages, the salvation of a sinner is declared to depend only upon believing, and in about thirty-five passages to depend on faith, which is a synonym of believing. The Scriptures everywhere harmonize with this overwhelming body of truth. God alone can save a soul and God can save only through the sacrifice of His Son. Man can sustain no other relation to salvation than to believe God's message to the extent of turning from self-works to depend only on the work of God through Christ. Believing is the opposite of doing anything; it is trusting another instead. Therefore, the Scriptures are violated and the whole doctrine of grace confused when salvation is made to depend on anything other than believing. The divine message is not "believe and pray," "believe and confess sin," "believe and confess Christ," "believe and be baptized," "believe and repent," or "believe and make restitution." These six added subjects are mentioned in the Scriptures and there they have their full intended meaning; but if they were as essential to salvation as believing they would never be omitted from any passage wherein the way to be saved is stated (note John 1:12; 3:16, 36; 5:24; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5, 24; 5:1; 10:4; Galatians 3:22). Salvation is only through Christ, and men are therefore saved when they receive Him as their Saviour." from Major Bible Themes by Lewis Sperry Chafer Themes.pdf If you value your soul and where you are heading, I would suggest you go to the website I gave and study this chapter in this book very carefully and examine the Bible verses it refers to. You can also study other chapters as you wish. The book is specifically focused on doctrine such as the doctrine of salvation which is very important to know. Knowing doctrine in the Bible will protect one from false teaching. The world is full of false teaching. Nobody can work their way to heaven. Working one's way to heaven is how all false religions work. It is condemned in Romans and Galatians. Salvation is by faith alone. That is clear in over a hundred verses in the Bible. Mt 7. 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ These people had faith but they committed 22 hours ago, blackbird said: Salvation does not depend on faith, there are many who had faith like the crusaders and the inquisitors but they were not saved because they committed iniquities and murders while perhaps thinking they were doing good but the unjust do not enter paradise unless they repent, you must reread Mt 7 and in particular this passage: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ They had faith but they committed iniquities like murders Quote
blackbird Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 (edited) 12 hours ago, Gaétan said: Salvation does not depend on faith, there are many who had faith like the crusaders and the inquisitors but they were not saved because they committed iniquities and murders It has nothing to do with the subject. We don't know what they believed "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. " Acts 8:35-37 KJV So the Ethiopian eunuch was saved by his faith in Jesus Christ. Edited February 13 by blackbird Quote
Gaétan Posted February 15 Author Report Posted February 15 On 2/12/2025 at 4:42 PM, blackbird said: It has nothing to do with the subject. We don't know what they believed "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. " Acts 8:35-37 KJV So the Ethiopian eunuch was saved by his faith in Jesus Christ. People have made you believe nonsense to get your money like many others. Jesus taught that you are saved by loving your neighbor as yourself or by repenting of your sins. The inquisitors thought they were doing good and had faith but they simply did not love their neighbor as themselves and did not repent of their murders. What you say you do not take from Jesus but from people who have misled others or from thieves. Besides you do not quote anything from Jesus. Jesus teaches to forgive but if I do not forgive the fault of a neighbor, do I really believe in Jesus or only with my lips? Quote
blackbird Posted February 15 Report Posted February 15 2 hours ago, Gaétan said: People have made you believe nonsense to get your money like many others. Jesus taught that you are saved by loving your neighbor as yourself or by repenting of your sins. The inquisitors thought they were doing good and had faith but they simply did not love their neighbor as themselves and did not repent of their murders. What you say you do not take from Jesus but from people who have misled others or from thieves. Besides you do not quote anything from Jesus. Jesus teaches to forgive but if I do not forgive the fault of a neighbor, do I really believe in Jesus or only with my lips? Everything you said is made up nonsense and has nothing to do with the subject of how one is saved. If you are a Roman Catholic, you are part of the church that ran the Inquisition for four hundred years. Bible-believing Christians don't support Inquisitions and never did. So I am not sure why you are even mentioning the Inquisition. We know it was evil. The Bible teaches salvation is by faith in over a hundred verses. God is the author of the Bible and Jesus is God. It's as simple as that. I gave you lots of information about it but you ignored it. That's your problem. I never said anything about forgiving or not forgiving the fault of a neighbour. Here you are bringing in another accusation which is false. Of course Christians should forgive the faults of their neighbour. 1 Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 8 hours ago, blackbird said: The Bible teaches salvation is by faith in over a hundred verses. The pastors told you this to get your money, if Jesus said that show me where right away Quote
blackbird Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 17 minutes ago, Gaétan said: The pastors told you this to get your money, if Jesus said that show me where right away "16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " John 3:16 KJV "40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40 KJV " 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. " John 6:47 KJV "25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. " John 11:25 26 KJV Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 (edited) 5 hours ago, blackbird said: "16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " John 3:16 KJV "40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40 KJV " 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. " John 6:47 KJV "25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. " John 11:25 26 KJV You have deliberately omitted these: 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. For Jesus, believing in him means that he does the works he teaches Mt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. It is not enough to say one's rosary but to do the will of the Father, that is to say, of works The works is this: luke 10.25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]” Love your neighbor as yourself or treat your neighbor as yourself is to do works like this: Luke 10.33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ Edited February 16 by Gaétan Quote
blackbird Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Gaétan said: For Jesus, believing in him means that he does the works he teaches One must become a Christian before he can do good works for God. A person is saved by God's grace through faith. So he becomes a believer, a Christian, a child of God, or a saint at the moment he believes in Christ as his Savior and Lord. He then should do good works. You have it reversed. You think one can work his way to heaven. That is not what the Bible teaches. Salvation (eternal life) is a gift of God. You need to study Paul's letter to the Romans and Galatians. Remember God inspired men to write those epistles. The whole Bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. " 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV Nobody can work their way to heaven. These verses make clear salvation is by God's grace through faith. Then after he is saved, he does good works. What I'm trying to explain to you is the doctrine of Justification by faith. Paul emphasizes this in his epistle to the Romans and Galatians. One must become justified by faith first. Then do good works in their life. "20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; {set forth: or, foreordained} {remission: or, passing over} 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. " Romans 3:20-28 KJV Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackbird said: A person is saved by God's grace through faith. You didn't put the verses of Jesus that you are saved by faith: is just something the pastors made up to get your money, you can only be saved by works, here is some verses who also says that: Mt 25. 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. The foolish virgins had not prepared themselves, they had not done works According to Jesus, believing implies that you love your neighbor as yourself, as the story of the Good Samaritan demonstrates. If you don't behave as Jesus teaches, it means that you don't believe according to him The pastors say come to us, Jesus paid for your sins, but they invented this to increase the number of donors, Jesus never said that Edited February 16 by Gaétan Quote
blackbird Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 23 minutes ago, Gaétan said: You didn't put the verses of Jesus that you are saved by faith: I gave you four verses where Jesus taught salvation is by faith. Did you not read them? Or did you just ignore the posting? I will repeat them here: 8 hours ago, blackbird said: "16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " John 3:16 KJV "40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40 KJV " 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. " John 6:47 KJV "25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. " John 11:25 26 KJV Quote
blackbird Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 29 minutes ago, Gaétan said: you can only be saved by works That is totally contrary to verses I gave you from the Bible. Why do you ignore them? "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. " Ephesians 2:8, 9 KJV It appears you are completely ignoring the verses I gave you. I am done with this kind of conversation. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 (edited) 33 minutes ago, blackbird said: I gave you four verses where Jesus taught salvation is by faith. Did you not read them? Or did you just ignore the posting? I will repeat them here: But i put the verses that for Jesus Christ to believe means to believe with you heart not with your libs and if you don't do works you don't beleive with your heart. Edited February 16 by Gaétan Quote
User Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 21 minutes ago, Gaétan said: But i put the verses that for Jesus Christ to believe means to believe with you heart not with your libs and if you don't do works you don't beleive with your hart. Works are a sign of faith, not a requirement. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 4 minutes ago, User said: Works are a sign of faith, not a requirement. Believing Jesus with all your heart means having an unshakeable faith in him as your Lord and Savior. It means surrendering to his will and living your life according to his teachings. It means putting your trust in him above all else, knowing he will never lead you astray. It also consists in committing to living for Him and following His teachings. How To Believe In Jesus With Your Heart (2025) Quote
User Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 5 minutes ago, Gaétan said: Believing Jesus with all your heart means having an unshakeable faith in him as your Lord and Savior. It means surrendering to his will and living your life according to his teachings. It means putting your trust in him above all else, knowing he will never lead you astray. It also consists in committing to living for Him and following His teachings. Sure... but we are human. Humans are not perfect. We can never do enough perfect work to save ourselves, that is the entire point of Jesus sacrifice and having faith in him. You can't ever have a perfect faith, a perfect trust, perfectly put him above everything, perfectly living for Him, or perfectly follow his teachings. There is no such thing. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 10 minutes ago, User said: Sure... but we are human. Humans are not perfect. We can never do enough perfect work to save ourselves, that is the entire point of Jesus sacrifice and having faith in him. You can't ever have a perfect faith, a perfect trust, perfectly put him above everything, perfectly living for Him, or perfectly follow his teachings. There is no such thing. You don't need to be perfect but to love your neighbor as yourself, that's what he taught he gave the exemple of the good samaritan. The good samaritan treated his neighbor as he wanted to be treated and you have to do the same. Mt 7 Quote
User Posted February 16 Report Posted February 16 2 minutes ago, Gaétan said: You don't need to be perfect but to love your neighbor as yourself, that's what he taught he gave the exemple of the good samaritan. The good samaritan treated his neighbor as he wanted to be treated and you have to do the same. Mt 7 No, but you can never perfectly love all your neighbors as yourself. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 16 Author Report Posted February 16 6 minutes ago, User said: No, but you can never perfectly love all your neighbors as yourself. If no you can still be saved if you repent of your sins Quote
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