What is a Proxy War?

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, User said:

Joining NATO has nothing to do with Russia having to go to war to stop it. 

 

Huh?

Are you reading what you write?

[User]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Huh?

Are you reading what you write?

Yes. Russia did not have to go to war. 

[Nationalist]

9 hours ago, User said:

Yes. Russia did not have to go to war. 

Well that has to do with the infamous Minsk II Agreement. Here are the main points:

"Immediate, comprehensive ceasefire.

Withdrawal of heavy weapons by both sides.

OSCE monitoring.

Dialogue on interim self-government for Donetsk and Luhansk, in accordance with Ukrainian law, and acknowledgement of special status by parliament.

Pardon, amnesty for fighters.

Exchange of hostages, prisoners.

Humanitarian assistance.

Resumption of socioeconomic ties, including pensions.

Ukraine to restore control of state border.

Withdrawal of foreign armed formations, military equipment, mercenaries.

Constitutional reform in Ukraine including decentralisation, with specific mention of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Elections in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Intensify Trilateral Contact Group’s work including representatives of Russia, Ukraine and OSCE."

But afterwards, neither Ukraine nor Russia could agree on what the agreement actually meant. Enter The Minsk Conundrum. Ukraine wanted the border control restored before constitutional reform and Russia wanted the reform accomplished first...in a nutshell. 

The "reform" identified would have given the Donbas region back to Ukraine in return for "special status" and representation in Ukraine's parliament for that region.

IMO...therein lies the war.

So did Russia have to attack? From the point of view of the west...probably not. But neither of us can speak for Russian understanding, and I'd venture a guess that they understand Ukraine intentions quite a bit better than we do. So...after it all went for a sh1tter and fighting continued, 5 years later, Russia sent in their military.

My problem with it all is simple. Why is this any of our business?

[User]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

My problem with it all is simple. Why is this any of our business?

I am well aware you have no problems with Russian aggression and Russian invasion of Ukraine. 
 

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

So...after it all went for a sh1tter and fighting continued, 5 years later, Russia sent in their military.

The Russian military was already in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions fighting against Ukraine. Russia pushed the entire war in this region from the start. They were behind the separatist movement; they sent in the Russian military to back them, Russian equipment...

Your entire argument is just nothing more than the same dishonest games Putin was playing. 

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

My problem with it all is simple. Why is this any of our business?

We have a strategic interest and relationship with Ukraine going back to their giving up their Nuclear weapons to seeing that Russia doesn't just conquer them. 

Of course, you would rather us not support them and see Russia control and/or conquer them. You have been quite clear on your support for Russia. 

[Nationalist]

24 minutes ago, User said:

I am well aware you have no problems with Russian aggression and Russian invasion of Ukraine. 
 

The Russian military was already in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions fighting against Ukraine. Russia pushed the entire war in this region from the start. They were behind the separatist movement; they sent in the Russian military to back them, Russian equipment...

Your entire argument is just nothing more than the same dishonest games Putin was playing. 

We have a strategic interest and relationship with Ukraine going back to their giving up their Nuclear weapons to seeing that Russia doesn't just conquer them. 

Of course, you would rather us not support them and see Russia control and/or conquer them. You have been quite clear on your support for Russia. 

Lol...you keep trying to make me out to be some sort of Russian. Unfortunately I am Canadian. If the USA and NATO had any strategic concern for Ukraine, they'd have accepted the Ukrainian application. They did not.

Brandon has now tried to eliminate any peace deal Trump has in mind. But that's not gonna work. All it's gonna do is give Russia a reason to level Kiev.

Trump will bring peace. I'm sure you understand what that will mean.

So enjoy your little war. It's got a limited shelf life now, and then you can call Trump a Russian asset.

Enjoy that.

[User]

9 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Lol...you keep trying to make me out to be some sort of Russian. Unfortunately I am Canadian.

Nice strawman. I have not called you a Russian. I very precisely and accurately call you out for your support of them in this war. 

10 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

If the USA and NATO had any strategic concern for Ukraine, they'd have accepted the Ukrainian application. They did not.

That is one way of showing concern. The other is to support them in their war effort and back them with $$$ and supplies. 

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

So enjoy your little war. It's got a limited shelf life now, and then you can call Trump a Russian asset.

Enjoy that.

I don't enjoy any of this. This is a war YOU support Russia starting and you cheer Russia on in waging. 

We could have peace if they never started it, we could have peace if they ended it today. 

 

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, User said:

Nice strawman. I have not called you a Russian. I very precisely and accurately call you out for your support of them in this war. 

That is one way of showing concern. The other is to support them in their war effort and back them with $$$ and supplies. 

I don't enjoy any of this. This is a war YOU support Russia starting and you cheer Russia on in waging. 

We could have peace if they never started it, we could have peace if they ended it today. 

 

Again...nice try. But swing and another miss.

Are you gonna call Trump a Russian asset once he imposes a peace deal?

[Five of swords]

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

LOLOL  thats what you always say when you're losing an argument  

C'mon, you remember -  back when you didn't know there was an agreement in place to defend poland, and when you didn't know russia and france and england had been discussing with poland that russia would enter poland if there was  a german invasion, and how you thought that hilter was just minding his own business and was attacked randomly by england and france because they hate germans?  Remember that?

And i proved that you were dumb as fcuk and had no idea of the history or the agreements?   

I'm a little surprised you wanted to revisit that. You looked pretty dumb the first time, i doubt you'll look better now. 

Actually all you did was prove you were severely retarded. I knew there was an 'agreement' with poland against Germany. You are just bullshitting about poland and the allies agreeing to have Russia invade poland lol...and that is a very dumb lie. You were never able to understand the point I was making because of course you are severely retarded. And clearly you never will.

[User]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Again...nice try. But swing and another miss.

Are you gonna call Trump a Russian asset once he imposes a peace deal?

I did not call you a Russian asset. 

Yet again, you can't argue honestly. 

[Nationalist]

50 minutes ago, User said:

I did not call you a Russian asset. 

Yet again, you can't argue honestly. 

Oh but you can? Pfft.

[User]

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

Oh but you can? Pfft.

Let me know where I am not. 

Here, you keep creating this strawman about being called a Russian asset. I have said no such thing. 

See, I can point out what you are doing. 

[Nationalist]

34 minutes ago, User said:

Let me know where I am not. 

Here, you keep creating this strawman about being called a Russian asset. I have said no such thing. 

See, I can point out what you are doing. 

Your insistence that I support Russia.

Your complete dismissal of the events that lead to this war.

[User]

Just now, Nationalist said:

Your insistence that I support Russia.

Your complete dismissal of the events that lead to this war.

You do support Russia. 

A woman going to a party led to her rape... that doesn't mean the rape was justified or her fault. Why do you want to blame the rape victim?

[Nationalist]

32 minutes ago, User said:

You do support Russia. 

A woman going to a party led to her rape... that doesn't mean the rape was justified or her fault. Why do you want to blame the rape victim?

No I don't and you're being stupid now.

[User]

37 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

No I don't and you're being stupid now.

That is your argument here with Ukraine. Trying to blame them for this war, when it was Russia that started this war. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Actually all you did was prove you were severely retarded. I knew there was an 'agreement' with poland against Germany. You are just bullshitting about poland and the allies agreeing to have Russia invade poland lol...and that is a very dumb lie. You were never able to understand the point I was making because of course you are severely retarded. And clearly you never will.

Oh noes!!!  triggered nazi socialist is triggered  

You didn't know there was an agreement, I had to point that out. You literally were asking why britain and France didn't attack Russia, so you obviously did not know that there was an agreement there.

I guess if I looked as stupid as you did  I might be tempted to lie about it too  

 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, User said:

That is your argument here with Ukraine. Trying to blame them for this war, when it was Russia that started this war. 

I "blame" all 3. Russia, Ukraine and the USA. But then...I consider all the actions that lead to this crap.

[Five of swords]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Oh noes!!!  triggered nazi socialist is triggered  

You didn't know there was an agreement, I had to point that out. You literally were asking why britain and France didn't attack Russia, so you obviously did not know that there was an agreement there.

I guess if I looked as stupid as you did  I might be tempted to lie about it too  

 

Well that is totally untrue

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Five of swords said:

Well that is totally untrue

Except for the fact that it's 100% true. You went on about it for pages. I had to post links and everything to show you.

The Brits and France had negotiated with Russia that if germany ever invaded russia would move into Poland as a deterrent to make sure they didn't take over the whole thing. Britain and France wanted Russia to commit to moving even deeper into Poland but Poland objected because they were a little concerned Russia wouldn't give it back.

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You are just bullshitting about poland and the allies agreeing to have Russia invade poland

Posted all the links before kiddo.  And you'll notice poland never declared war on the soviets. There was almost no resistance to the russians and what there was seems to have been a result of confusion and poor communication. 

But sure, lose an argument months ago and try to revive it as if it never happened.  That's a great way to look like a winner  

 

[NAME REMOVED]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The Brits and France had negotiated with Russia that if germany ever invaded russia would move into Poland as a deterrent to make sure they didn't take over the whole thing. Britain and France wanted Russia to commit to moving even deeper into Poland but Poland objected because they were a little concerned Russia wouldn't give it back.

 

There was  no agreement reached between the Soviet Union and Britain/France. There were preliminary discussions of a Soviet-British/French pact, but it was never implemented, due to Polish opposition to the Soviets marching into Polish territory, as you pointed out. 

Before Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop met with Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, in a secret meeting, to form the The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, an agreement that was designed to split Poland in half, between Germany and the Soviet Union, where both countries agreed to respect each others sphere of influence.

Of course, Hitler and the Germans had absolutely no intention of honouring the non-aggression pact. The Pact was meant to buy Hitler and the Nazis time to prepare for Operation Barbarossa, the planned conquest of Russia, for the purpose of Lebensraum, or "living space" for ethnic Germans. The invasion was carried out, in the early morning hours of June 22, 1941. 

Edited November 20, 2024 by DUI_Offender

[Five of swords]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Except for the fact that it's 100% true. You went on about it for pages. I had to post links and everything to show you.

The Brits and France had negotiated with Russia that if germany ever invaded russia would move into Poland as a deterrent to make sure they didn't take over the whole thing. Britain and France wanted Russia to commit to moving even deeper into Poland but Poland objected because they were a little concerned Russia wouldn't give it back.

Posted all the links before kiddo.  And you'll notice poland never declared war on the soviets. There was almost no resistance to the russians and what there was seems to have been a result of confusion and poor communication. 

But sure, lose an argument months ago and try to revive it as if it never happened.  That's a great way to look like a winner  

 

Right but poland had no issue with the idea of Russia invading poland because they totally didn't declare war on Russia and kill Russian soldiers...

[CdnFox]

12 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

There was  no agreement reached between the Soviet Union and Britain/France. There were preliminary discussions of a Soviet-British/French pact, but it was never implemented, due to Polish opposition to the Soviets marching into Polish territory, as you pointed out. 

It was never finalized but it was always understood that's what would happen. The disagreement really wasn't whether or not they were going to enter Poland, it was more of a question of how far.

You probably need a little context, five of swords position was that germany wasn't responsible for the war and as proof he offered the fact that France and Britain declared war on germany for no reason when it invaded Poland in self-defense. I pointed out that in fact they had a treaty with Poland to do just that. After he got over that confusion he insisted that this couldn't be true and as proof they didn't go after Russia when they crossed the border. I pointed out that was because they expected Russia to based on talks that have been underway to deal with a german invasion. Poland didn't even declare war on Russia the way it did with germany. So of course they didn't declare war on Russia, this was always something that had been considered.

Which is true. He's still just butthurt that he couldn't make the argument that germany was the innocent bystander who was ruthlessly attacked when it tried to defend itself against polish aggression.

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Right but poland had no issue with the idea of Russia invading poland because they totally didn't declare war on Russia and kill Russian soldiers...

oh look, you learned something.  Well done. 

"No" issue would probably be strong but as noted it was always discussed as a defense against germany. It was believed germany wouldn't risk war with russia. 

Of course in the end russia kind of backstabbed poland but as far as poland, france and britian were concerned this was and anti-german move and not unexpected. 

[NAME REMOVED]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It was never finalized but it was always understood that's what would happen. The disagreement really wasn't whether or not they were going to enter Poland, it was more of a question of how far.

The problem is that Stalin was playing both sides. He was negotiating with the British, and secretly negotiating with Germany, as he did not trust either. He found the German offer more pragmatic I guess, considering Hitler was hell bent on going to war with an Eastern European country...

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You probably need a little context, five of swords position was that germany wasn't responsible for the war and as proof he offered the fact that France and Britain declared war on germany for no reason when it invaded Poland in self-defense.

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

 

Which is true. He's still just butthurt that he couldn't make the argument that germany was the innocent bystander who was ruthlessly attacked when it tried to defend itself against polish aggression.

FOS has proven to be a legitimate neo-Nazi, who know absolutely nothing about history or politics.  

Edited November 20, 2024 by DUI_Offender

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

The problem is that Stalin was playing both sides. He was negotiating with the British, and secretly negotiating with Germany, as he did not trust either.

well without a doubt, and of course the german offer allowed him to play the 'innocent' in case it went bad.  "Invade poland in support of germany?!?! Whaaaaaaat? Noooo we talked about that, we were just following the plan we discussed".   And if germany won they got to keep their spoils which of course is exactly what would happen for many years. 

Beware russians bearing gifts. 

4 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

FOS has proven to be a legitimate neo-Nazi, who know absolutely nothing about history or politics.  

well I'm sure he will bristle at the neo part and point out that his support is specifically for 1939's Nazis but basically yes

Edited November 20, 2024 by CdnFox