Conseil Scolaire du District Centre Sud Ouest

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote - " Actually you have to speak English or French to immigrate anywhere in Canada."

Well, thats what multiculturalism official languages has done to Canada it 'DISCOURAGES ASSIMILATION.'

Normally and anywhere else in Canada but Quebec does not NEED any offical linguistc status because English as always been the 'de facto' language like the U.S. and the U.K.

But I think we should follow the 'official language example' of Quebec and make English the offical language of all other Canadian provinces to especially encourage assimilation a very necessary ingredient to make provinces linguitically efficient similar English language legislation pertaining to 22 U.S. states.

This way the rest of Canada would be guaranteed English immigration like Quebec is guaranteed French immigration and we would not be faced with cultural ghettos and the many associated problems.

[Leafless]

Bakunin

You wrote- " That's what I thought the same policy will always be wrong in quebec and right everwhere else, in other words there is no problem to discuss because the problem is in your head."

The problem in my head is why does Quebec think it's a country, self absorbed with Quebec nationalism and defies and discriminates against Canada's Constitution with it's OWN French languge Charter.

That's the problem, Bakunin!

[geoffrey]

geoffrey

You wrote - " Actually you have to speak English or French to immigrate anywhere in Canada."

Well, thats what multiculturalism official languages has done to Canada it 'DISCOURAGES ASSIMILATION.'

Normally and anywhere else in Canada but Quebec does not NEED any offical linguistc status because English as always been the 'de facto' language like the U.S. and the U.K.

But I think we should follow the 'official language example' of Quebec and make English the offical language of all other Canadian provinces to especially encourage assimilation a very necessary ingredient to make provinces linguitically efficient similar English language legislation pertaining to 22 U.S. states.

This way the rest of Canada would be guaranteed English immigration like Quebec is guaranteed French immigration and we would not be faced with cultural ghettos and the many associated problems.

I'm ok with that concept. I'm ok with your dislike of bilingualism.

I just draw the line at completely crap generalisations of French Canadians. Quebec has a distinct culture, like Duceppe says, "no better, no worse, just different." Let them live a little, as long as its not at a cost to the rest of us. You'll find me very opposed to Quebec special treatments in dairy and government contracts in other posts.

I'm just vocally opposed to people calling French Canadians lazy people that don't deserve rights in Canada. French people can have schools, I think we should diversify our schooling system further so people can learn various languages so we have the most competitive people entering the workforce. Or for the artsy fartsy, the most well rounded people. Multi-culturalism in how it should be is a great idea, multi-culturalism how it is is an utter failure.

If I were Quebecois, I'd want to seperate. I feel like that some days being Albertan and I speak the same language as you Eastern folks. Canadians are too different around the country to have centralised government, and we are too diversified to have uni-cultural education systems that condemn anyone different.

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote- " I'm just vocally opposed to people calling French Canadians lazy people that don't deserve rights in Canada."

Of course French Canadians are not a lazy people.

But I think what 'iamcanadian2' was getting at was the government jobs that are created for Quebec and French people under the guise of federal official bilingualism along with all the federal created subsidies and programs that are available to Quebec rather then Quebec BEING FORCED to create and maintain it's own successful province.

Obviously it refuses as far as I can see to do this because it would be forced to cater to the English in a much more significant manner rather than be in mostly full control like they are now with their own 'French official province and official language' with heavy emphasis on Quebec nationalism.

This means they would be forced to assimilate to English and would obviously prefer to be taken linguistic care of under the wings of the federal government.

I don't fully agree with the 'rights issue' as with rights as there must be a compromise and with Quebec many issue's 'are a one way street' with unrealistic linguistic expectations.

[iamcanadian2]

What the hell is a Linguistic Right?

Who the hell made that lable up?

This is the first place on earth and in history that a group claimed LINGUSTIC RIGHTS.

You have the right to speak and be heard. You have no right to demand other people must understand your language of choice.

A Linguistic Right is a False Claim to a False Pretense that serves to screw others and allow French Canadians to live off the Welfare demanded from Non-French Canadians who make up 80% of Canada.

80% of Canada counld not care less if they never saw or heard another French word. The more they heard of the bullshit Lingustic Right French Canadians claim the more offesinsive this becomes to everyone else.

Your wife may claim a French lingustic right squarely between her legs based on the only thing a French Linguist may be better at doing with their tounges than any other tounges used everywhre in Canada.

[geoffrey]

iamcanadian, you said:

"You have no right to demand other people must understand your language of choice."

--

Ok, so we have no lingustic rights by your definition, no one has the right to demand other people must understand you.

So when the civil servant is speaking Punjab next time you go pick up your hate-French literature at the government office, I really hope you just say "oh well, no one has a right to have people listen and speak in their language!!"

Be reasonable man.

[iamcanadian2]

If everyone in Canada decided to speak Punjabi then so be it.

You are twisting reality.

Those bilingual French Speaking Canadians that are choosing to speak French over English and claiming that they have a right to be served in French anywhere in Canada and that the rest of Canada must accomodate them.

I say no you have no such right. You have a right to hire an interpreter, pay him from your own pocket, outside of Quebec or don't leave Quebec unless you learn English.

There are no such things as Lingustic Rights. Never have been and never will be.

Where "numbers warrant" (WARRANT = NEED) means that when more than 50% of the people living some place in Canada ONLY speak French and DON'T understand enough English to get by ONLY THEN should the government need to hire French Speaking Canadians.

Furthermore because most French Speaking Canadian almost all speak English GOOD ENOUGH to get by. Making French a mandatory language for any government job anywhere in Canada INCLUDING Quebec is NOT WARRANTED and should be considered UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

[geoffrey]

How is it unconstitutional? To make that claim, it must violate the constitution. Where in the constitution does it say you must only speak one language?

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote- " How is it unconstitutional? To make that claim it must violate the Constitution. where in the Constitution does it say you must speak only one language."

The majority common language and language of commerce in Canada is 'de facto' English and always has been.

What the federal the Constitution Act 1982 does is allows the federal government (not a simple group but the government of this land) to overide 'de facto' English by providing rights pertaining to federal legislation and actually provides the federal legal authority to advance the equality status or use of English or French, Sec. 16-(3) without ever having a national referendum on that imposed federal legislation.

This is outright totalitarianism and borders a 'coup d'etat' and defeats any kind democratic acknowledgement and the RIGHT of Canadians to be part of this ALL IMPORTANT decision making process to remove 'de facto' English as the working language of this country but nevertheless the Liberals plowed this Charter legislation through regardless.

This also puts provinces in an linguistic AWKWARD postion to rectify the situation by making provinces legally English by working against imposed federal legislation which naturally the feds would view as unacceptable but never raised objection when Quebec made French the 'official' working language of Quebec.

The U.S. and the U.K. are both 'not official' but 'de facto' English and I would like to see what the reaction of it's citizen's would be if either government would ever try to impose another foreign language to overide 'de facto' English language of either country.

[iamcanadian2]

How is it unconstitutional? To make that claim, it must violate the constitution. Where in the constitution does it say you must only speak one language?

Where in the constitution does it say anyone should have two languages.

Or, that people who speak two languages have more rights to government jobs than people who speak only one.

Or, that French Speakers have the RIGHT to French Government Services everywhere in Canada.

The thing says "Where Numbers Warrant" this does not mean everywhere.

If a bilingual french speaker demands service in French when the public servant he got did not speak French then that bilingual should be denied services unless HE uses the English that he knows well enough.

There is no right to french anythinig everywhere in Canada

[seabee]

And if a bilingual english speaker demands service in English when the public servant he got did not speak English then that bilingual should be denied services unless HE uses the French that he knows well enough.

[seabee]

The majority common language and language of commerce in Canada is 'de facto' English and always has been.

Always has been? Nope! It had been French for a century and a half before the English violently took it over.

[August1991]

You have the right to speak and be heard. You have no right to demand other people must understand your language of choice.

A Linguistic Right is a False Claim to a False Pretense that serves to screw others and allow French Canadians to live off the Welfare demanded from Non-French Canadians who make up 80% of Canada.

80% of Canada counld not care less if they never saw or heard another French word. The more they heard of the bullshit Lingustic Right French Canadians claim the more offesinsive this becomes to everyone else.

Wow IAC2, you are clearly a generous soul.

Going back to a debate that I thought ended a few decades ago, bilingualism merely means that French speaking people should receive federal government services in French. That's it.

Since education is a provincial jurisdiction, your rant about school boards should be directed at your provincial government - Ontario, I guess. Different provinces fund schools in different ways. I happen to think a voucher system is a good idea and from what I can gather, that's roughly what Ontario has in the case of French language schools.

If Canada has any hope to function as a federal state, then the status of the French language in the federal government must be guaranteed. But the federal government should only get involved in affairs concerning all Canadians.

IAC2, it seems you've got some problem with French. As someone once said, if you don't like French, turn the box around.

[Leafless]

seabee

You wrote- " Always has been? Nope! It had been French for a century and a half before the English violently took over."

You know the French never really colonized Canada and that's why it was taken over. That's life!

At the death of Samuel de Champlain, the fort at Quebec had 85 adult residents.

This of course was after Canada intially being found by England's John Cabot then with France sending out Jacques Cartier who copied John Cabot's expediton.

Our history is similar to Beligiums:

http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

http://www.zapotopi.net/cascadia/#FACT

[Leafless]

August 1991

You wrote- " Going back to a debate I thought ended a few decades ago, bilingualism merely means French speaking people should receive federal government services in French. That's it."

Well to-day August in the majority English Province of Ontario in cities like Ottawa where the majority language is English one is hard pressed to find a job in English in PRIVATE INDUSTRY or the private sector never mind federal employment that does not require speaking both English and French languages.

I challenge you to DESCRIBE how this could possibly happen when you said yourself " bilingualism means French speaking people should receive government services in French. That's it."

The DECAY of the importance of the English language in Ottawa's PRIVATE SECTOR is owed specifically to federal government pressure in an area OUTSIDE of FEDERAL JURISDICTION creating an ARTIFICIAL BILINGUAL AOURA concerning the artificial importance of French.

This debate will never be over as long as we have a fraudulent constitution courtesy of a la Liberals (creators) that allows undemocratic application of federal legislation and continual involvement and political pressure to overide the natural majority 'de facto' English language of this land.

[Argus]

In Québec, the English Canadian population is less than 10% of the population, yet it has a complete education system from pre-school to post-doctoral universities.

Paid for by them, and their numbers were much greater before the ethnic cleansing instituted by the racist quebecois.

The Non-English Canadians in Québec must stand up for their rights as the majority and stop letting English Canadians walk all over them.

English Canadians in Québec are generally richer than 95% of non-English Canadians in Québec; they can afford their own private school system.

Wow. Interesting ugly cliche reminicent of the racist complaint that the Jews control all business.

[Argus]

What I am refering to is the parent who intentionally retards their own children by sending them to a French Only Language school in Ontario to learn the French Language as a First Language with all their subjects in French and then learn English as a second language.

This statement is rediculous. One of the best things you can do for a kid is give them an opportunity to learn another language when they are young. It does not really make a difference what that language is. Kids which learn multilple languages end up having better English skills than those that only learn English.

Uhm, my experience with many, many bilingual people suggests otherwise.

[Argus]

I know several children who have completed at least one year of French immersion, and believe me, they are anything but 'retarded'. I think it's money well spent.

There has, however, been considerable discussion and some studies which suggest English students who attend French immersion schools wind up falling behind students in regular English schools in all other subjects.

[Argus]

French Canadians are either a minority group equal to the Punjabi or any other foreign group (and can then be treated equally as any other minority; OR you are the encumbant Domestic Canadian Culture that the minority Groups must deal with as such.

Make up your damned minds and stop screwing all Non-French Canadians by flip flopping to gain advantages for your own Minority Group.

I think you need to start distinguishing between Francophones in general, and mostly self-appointed, or government appointed "community leaders" and talking heads who lobby and campaign and want more and more money and power for "their groups" when actually they want more money and power for themselves.

[Argus]

This is twisted logic. Federal services are provided across the nation, and official bilingualism dictates that these services are offered in both languages.

The regulations regarding Official Languages in the public service are only peripherally involved with providing services to the public in the language of the public's choice. The bulk of Official Language requirements, services and costs are to please French employees and French politicians, largely for poorly thought-out political reasons. They have nothing to do with providing services to the public.

[Argus]

Mr. Harper won't attempt anything as exclusionary and biased as banning Quebeckers from public service, if that's what you're hoping for.

The Canada you're hoping for just can't happen anymore (thank God) because immigrants are the only people who are growing this country right now. Do you think Mr. Harper is going to stop immigration ? I certainly don't.

Why do you think "growing the country" is something desirable, much less neccessary? How is Canada any better off, so far as its citizens are concerned, for having 30 million people, than it was with 20 million people?

[Argus]

mmigrants being herded to Quebec by Immigration Policy and Administrators gontrolling the gates is not the same as French Canadians and their Culture welcoming new Immigrants and trying to turn them into more French Canadians.

A common theme I find with these arguments is they seem to start with the belief that Quebeckers are at fault, then they work backwards.

As a case in point, bilingualism is taken as proof that Quebeckers are self-centred, and that the "French" government works in their interests only.

Well, it's not hard to argue this with respect to Official Bilingualism.

[Argus]

So they do welcome immigrants then ? Thank you for confirming my point Leafless.

This times of concessions are important if we are to get beyond Quebec bashing in these discussions.

They welcome immigrants who already speak French. This is very different than what happens in the Multi-Cultural Part of Canada where all immigrants are welcome. French have a problem with all Non-French Canadians and not just with the English Speaking kind.

Actually you have to speak French or English to immigrate anywhere in Canada. Fancy that.

Not actually true. Where in this country do you live ,Geoffrey?

[Argus]

And if a bilingual english speaker demands service in English when the public servant he got did not speak English then that bilingual should be denied services unless HE uses the French that he knows well enough.

Never happens. Anglos who are bilingual tend to be delighted to make use of their second language with unilingual people. There just ain't many (any?) militant bilingual Anglos out there akin to that absolutely fluent French public servant who filed a human rights complaint because an Air Canada stewardess wasn't able to speak to him in French.

[Argus]

Québec "abuses" English rights by giving them their own school system, complete from kindergarden to post-graduate studies, with three English-speaking universities.

Rather contradictory, don't you think?

Anglo institutions in Quebec date from a time when Anglos made up 30% - 40% or even 50% of Quebec's population. They were not gifted to them by generous Francophones looking to keep a minority population happy. And, in fact, as succesive generations of Anglos have been chased out of Quebec, the Quebecois governments have made it more and more difficult to get into English schools on the theory that as the historical English population continues to decline and no new people (ie francophones or immigrants) are allowed to join in, those institutions will thankfully, vanish.

In contrast, while I can't speak for everywhere, Ontario's seperate French school systems were set up as a kind of politically correct sop to a French population which is nearly 100% fluent in English anyway, at great cost to the general community. They involve schools with student populations which would never be tolerated elsewhere, and would lead to school closures and amalgamations. They also draw public funding away from the general school systems. And there is, inevitably, some resentment of that.

You can take a college course in, say, Business Administration or IT, at Ottawa's English community college and you'll be in classes of 30-50 students. You can take the same course in the local French community college and be in classes of 5-8. The same sort of thing is in place in other provinces, for both the lower grades and college and universities. I know someone who couldn't get into an English university program in Alberta who wound up practically being paid to take the same courses in French. And while the English courses had clases of 100 students she was in a small, congenial setting with sometimes no more than half a dozen other students.

This is tremendously costly, somewhat unfair, and I have to ask - what is the ultimate objective here? It seems to be to perpetuate minority Francophone communities wherever possible, with the federal government even going to the extent of instituting a special immigration program to attract Francophone immigrants to small Francophone communities outside Quebec in order to make them more robust.

Needless to say, if the government implimented a similar program within Quebec to attract English speaking immigrants there'd be blood in the streets.