Are you a man or a woman?

[Scott75]

On 12/21/2024 at 11:42 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/21/2024 at 11:36 PM, Scott75 said:

There are longer ways to say the same thing, such as "biological male who identifies as a male". It's a lot longer but I'm guessing this could work for people who are offended by the term cis.

Or just 'male'.  Worked for the last 3000 years or so.

Times change.

On 12/21/2024 at 11:42 PM, CdnFox said:

And if  you really need to tag it how bout 'straght' male.  We've been using that one for decades too. 

Saying that someone is straight, or heterosexual, only means that someone is attracted to the "opposite sex or gender", according to Wikipedia. It says nothing about the type of male or female they are.

On 12/21/2024 at 11:42 PM, CdnFox said:

The only reason you want "Cis" is that you can use it as a pejorative. 

Nonsense. I myself am cisgender. It's just an easy way to differentiate between people who are biologically of a given sex but identify as the opposite gender. As I've mentioned in the past, it's not a word I use often. I haven't used the spanish term for it once in the 3 years that I've been staying in Mexico. But if I ever felt the need to differentiate between someone who identifies as the same gender as their sex, I now at least know the word to use.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Scott75

[Deluge]

8 hours ago, Scott75 said:

1. For the audience, I've already responded to Deluge's first 2 sentences in post #764. Bottom line, insulting people you disagree with is generally not the best way to resolve differences.

2. As to his notion that they've "planted their flag at the top of the democrat party", it's the first time I've even heard this claim.

3. As to his notion that they "want the entire planet embracing their agenda", I haven't seen any evidence that the transgender community even -has- a unified agenda, other than being accepted for who they are.

1. The word "Tranny" fits. It fits because the trannies have gotten aggressive. They've planted their flag at the top of the democrat party and they want the entire planet embracing their agenda. This kind of behavior justifies everything we throw at them.

2. Perhaps, but it's not the first time you've seen it. Point out one democrat who's pushed back against gender identity, pride month, drag queen pole dancing or story hour for kids, or trannies in women's locker rooms. 

3. Scott75 is still reeling from Kammie's loss last month. Poor kid...

Edited December 26, 2024 by Deluge

[User]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know why people continue to engage with my posts when they think I'm an immoral liar. 

Once again... this is a public forum. When you post things here, people will likely respond. 

The fact that you post lies just means people will call those out.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

But because I refuse to attack the medical profession, parents and so on, I am treated with disrespect. Fair enough, you don't have to respect me. But why should I talk to you in that case? 

You are treated with disrespect because you don't offer it to others. 

You spend a whole lot of time talking with me and others, its just almost never actually in regards to defending your assertions or crap you post. You just play these dumb games instead. 

 

2 hours ago, Scott75 said:

As I've said before, a good amount of people, including myself, have decided to expand our definitions of words like men and women, males and females, to include trans people within those definitions. You may not like the fact that I and others have done this, but we've done this all the same and pretending it hasn't happened just shows that you're in denial of this fact.

We already have a way to know someones biological sex. We call them men and women, males and females. If there is someone who believes they are something they are not and wants to role play, we call them trans. 

[User]

2 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I re-read what you wrote in post #453 and I think I get it now. It's right there, in the second sentence. You thought I was "here wanting us to use different definitions of the words". It -seems- that you are actually recognizing that these words actually -have- different definitions, but you keep on denying that they do despite all the evidence to the contrary, so I'll let you decide what you meant. 

I am not interested in playing this dumb game any longer. Go back and respond to the actual posts in full or don't. Tired of your dishonestly picking them apart and trying to paraphrase them in different words long after the fact like this. 

2 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I don't think so, and clearly a lot of other people don't either. It's basically like a recursive acronym, only it's a word instead.

So... its not a "recursive acronym" and yes you are trying to define the word with the word. I have already refuted this silliness long ago. 

Now all you can do is play dumb games. 

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Deluge said:

1. The word "Tranny" fits. It fits because the trannies have gotten aggressive.

2. They've planted their flag at the top of the democrat party and they want the entire planet embracing their agenda.

3. This kind of behavior justifies everything we throw at them.

 

1. There's no way to objectively prove that.  I'd say that this transgender stuff is a politically expedient topic that doesn't matter.  People get offended by it, sure, but that's the price of freedom.  The limits of that freedom can be discussed reasonably.  You just need people to be respectful.

2. That's a wild exaggeration. 

3.  That's a dangerous statement. You should choose your words more carefully.

[User]

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

That is, I'm beginning to think that it's possible you've never acknowledged that there is more than one definition for terms like male and female. This, despite the fact that well known sources of information such as Wikipedia make it clear that there is in fact more than one definition. The definitions that you have such a hard time accepting exists is spelled out on Wikipedia articles on male and female:

Possible?

You were the one who made the assertion. You have no evidence for it. All that is left for you to do now is admit you were wrong. 

I have already played this dumb Wikipedia game with you already. 

[Deluge]

8 hours ago, Scott75 said:

1. No, I'm not. I, along with a lot of other people, have simply separated a person's biological sex with a person's gender. If knowing a person's biological sex is important, one can ask them their biological sex, or, if they have identified as a male or female, by asking them if they are cisgender or transgender. There is also the fact that some people are born intersex. In case you haven't heard of the term:

**

Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics, including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies".^[1][2]

Sex assignment at birth usually aligns with a child's external genitalia. The number of births with ambiguous genitals is in the range of 1:4,500–1:2,000 (0.02%–0.05%).^[3] Other conditions involve the development of atypical chromosomes, gonads, or hormones.^[4][2] Some persons may be assigned and raised as a girl or boy but then identify with another gender later in life, while most continue to identify with their assigned sex.^[5][6][7] The number of births where the baby is intersex has been reported differently depending on who reports and which definition of intersex is used. Anne Fausto-Sterling and her book co-authors claim the prevalence of "nondimorphic sexual development" in humans might be as high as 1.7%.^[8][9] However, a response published by Leonard Sax reports this figure includes conditions such as late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia and Klinefelter syndrome, which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex; Sax states, "if the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female", stating the prevalence of intersex is about 0.018% (one in 5,500 births), about 100 times less than Fausto-Sterling's estimate.^[4][10][11]

**

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

2. The American national elections are only evidence that more voting Americans preferred Trump over Kamala.

1. No, what you're saying is that a man can also be a woman because he identifies as a woman. In other words, you're saying that biological sex is no longer the sole determinant of a person's sex. 

2. That's the stupidest conclusion a person can come up with. The elections also prove that your side is full of shit. Americans have grown tired of woke thinkng; YOUR woke thinking. They've grown tired of woke thinking because they know it's bullshit, and bullshit wears everyone out except the bullshitters themselves. It explains why you repeat the same shit over and over. You're like robowoke 2.0. lol

Edited December 26, 2024 by Deluge

[Deluge]

7 hours ago, Scott75 said:

If this conversation is to move forward, I think we need to agree on what an agenda pusher -is-. I went looking online for a definition and found this one in some small forum:

**

It means that you are forcing/pushing other people to accept your opinions, actions, values while disregarding theirs.

**

Source:

https://hinative.com/questions/20350859

I we can agree to that definition, I would argue that I've done a -lot- of listening to other people's opinions, actions and values, and I've done it -without- resorting to personal attacks. Anyway, given the above definition, I find what you say -after- your above comment to be particularly ironic. Quoting what you said after below:

**

Agenda pushers are aggressive and highly obnoxious, so if you can't handle the pushback then it's best to just walk away and self-insultate.

**

It almost sounds like you know you're an agenda pusher and you just engaged in a freudian slip. 

Oh, you've done a marvelous job of holding back the insults, but that doesn't mean you haven't been pushing your agenda. You've very much been pushing your agenda; it's why you post the same shit over and over again. You don't care about what the majority thinks, you just want to get the message out: the LGBT message. That's all that matters to you, and that's why you draw insults from this side. 

[Deluge]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. There's no way to objectively prove that.  I'd say that this transgender stuff is a politically expedient topic that doesn't matter.  People get offended by it, sure, but that's the price of freedom.  The limits of that freedom can be discussed reasonably.  You just need people to be respectful.

2. That's a wild exaggeration. 

3.  That's a dangerous statement. You should choose your words more carefully.

1. You really need to pull your head out of your ass, Mike. Check out this article:

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/01/the-billionaires-behind-the-lgbt-movement

2. It's nowhere near wild, or an exaggeration. Biden embraces pride month and he's even hung the LGBT flag, prominently, at the WH. Nearly every decision that's made, whether it's in the private or public sector, centers trannies (and to a lesser degree the other special intersts) in their decison making processes. 

3. No, it isn't. In fact it's quite fair and accurate. I don't condone violence, but I do condone pushback - and right now the LGBT movement needs a lot of pushback. 

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Deluge said:

1. You really need to pull your head out of your ass, Mike. Check out this article:

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2020/01/the-billionaires-behind-the-lgbt-movement

2. It's nowhere near wild, or an exaggeration. Biden embraces pride month and he's even hung the LGBT flag, prominently, at the WH. Nearly every decision that's made, whether it's in the private or public sector, centers trannies (and to a lesser degree the other special intersts) in their decison making processes. 

3. No, it isn't. In fact it's quite fair and accurate. I don't condone violence, but I do condone pushback - and right now the LGBT movement needs a lot of pushback. 

1. So the nasty comment tells me that you're already afraid of the weakness of your argument.  In fact, you provide an article that describes lobbying efforts, but doesn't that doesn't mean anything about aggressiveness. 

2. Again, your argument is weak. Says nothing about a global agenda and your your claim about us policy is vague and not supported by anything. Substantial that you posted in this post. 

3. But you did condone violence. You said anything we throw at them. I'll give you a chance to engage in a responsible discussion with me here, if you retract the statement that we should be able to throw anything at them. How about it?

[User]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. But you did condone violence. You said anything we throw at them. I'll give you a chance to engage in a responsible discussion with me here, if you retract the statement that we should be able to throw anything at them. How about it?

There is nothing reasonable about your obtuse insistence to infer here that "anything we throw at them" was anything more than a figure of speech. 

He already explicitly said he did not condone violence. 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, User said:

There is nothing reasonable about your obtuse insistence to infer here that "anything we throw at them" was anything more than a figure of speech. 

He already explicitly said he did not condone violence. 

 

 

He pussyfoots around it with his tough guy language.  Let's see if he has the guts to say exactly what he wants to do, instead of this mushy meaning, ie. pushback.

It's the anti-woke squad at it again, big yawn.. . so don't buy Bud Lite if you're so offended by a trans lady.

The rest of us want to talk about important things...

[Legato]

12 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Apparently your delusion that I had 2 accounts here wasn't enough -.-

I see you are having a circle jerk with yourself. Be careful one could disappear up their own ass.

[Legato]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

He pussyfoots around it with his tough guy language.  Let's see if he has the guts to say exactly what he wants to do, instead of this mushy meaning, ie. pushback.

It's the anti-woke squad at it again, big yawn.. . so don't buy Bud Lite if you're so offended by a trans lady.

The rest of us want to talk about important things...

I would presume that "us" does not include yourself.

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Legato said:

I would presume that "us" does not include yourself.

No it does include me. 

If you'd think trans stuff is important, check in in 2 years and wonder why no one's talking about it anymore.

[User]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you'd think trans stuff is important, check in in 2 years and wonder why no one's talking about it anymore.

So, back to your other disingenuous argument. It's either not important, or everything is a lie and/or not happening. 

Also... it is so not important, you always seem to find yourself in these discussions doing a lot of posting trying to convince others of just how not important it is or that it isn't happening. 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

He pussyfoots around it with his tough guy language.  Let's see if he has the guts to say exactly what he wants to do, instead of this mushy meaning, ie. pushback.

It's the anti-woke squad at it again, big yawn.. . so don't buy Bud Lite if you're so offended by a trans lady.

The rest of us want to talk about important things...

No... he used a pretty benign figure of speech that have chosen to infer a meaning that doesn't exist. 

I made no mention of buying bud light or being offended by a trans lady. Yet again, you resort to dishonestly framing this argument to something it is not. 

You spend an awful lot of time here talking about this... 

[CdnFox]

20 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I've been posting in online forums for around 3 decades now. Which has certainly given me enough time to realize when someone is trying to foist the blame for their own typos on me using spurious logic.

Not my typos kiddo and not even your typos. You don't actually even understand how to quote somebody. Nor do you answer questions directly

And seeing as you are the only one on this forum who quotes like that the fact that another account was showed up in this thread which you're replying to and got run off for their stupidity and just happens to quote exactly the same way you do which is entirely unique it's not surprising people would think you had more than one account

 

At the end of the day your entire argument in all three of your accounts seems to be that you can redefine words to mean whatever you want therefore anything you say means whatever you feel like and the rest of us have to accept that.

If you choose to define words the way you want, then you have to agree that we define words the way we want. And that includes words to describe the trannies and the pronouns that go with them.

I've always leaned on the side of being polite and consider it of trans people but this threat is really pushing me in the other direction. If you insist that it's your right to say whatever you feel like no matter how factually incorrect or offensive it is then I see no reason why I shouldn't have the same right to do exactly the same thing and perhaps it's time I start exercising my rights.

 

 

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:28 AM, DUI_Offender said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:03 AM, Scott75 said:

On 12/15/2024 at 12:10 PM, CdnFox said:

In other words I correctly pointed out Your hypocrisy And now you are buthurt and can't refute the point so for some reason you're going to resort to quoting Muppets.

No, I'm just pointing out that making erroneous and insulting assertions aren't going to help move the actual topic of this thread forward.

But that's the entire M.O. of @User

As User essentially pointed out somewhat crudely in post #682, I was responding to CdnFox, not User. Regardless, though, I don't feel that's the truth for User or even CdnFox. I do feel that CdnFox really resorts far too much to insults when he disagrees with someone, which really doesn't help move a discussion forward.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Scott75

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:09 AM, CdnFox said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:03 AM, Scott75 said:

No, I'm just pointing out that making erroneous and insulting assertions aren't going to help move the actual topic of this thread forward.

That's pretty much what your side's been doing since the beginning. And I agree it hasn't helped your case at all

I can agree that my side's been making some erroneous and insulting assertions as well, but as I was taught in grade school, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 11:02 AM, User said:

On 12/21/2024 at 11:36 PM, Scott75 said:

The problem is that different groups of people define men and women differently. You seem to think that ignoring this will just make the problem disappear, but it won't.

Yes, that is your problem. Not mine. Not societies. One you are creating and pushing. 

I am not ignoring it, I am soundly rejecting it.

1- Don't kid yourself, it's your problem too. If it wasn't, we'd really have nothing to discuss here. The same goes for society. If this problem didn't exist in society, there wouldn't be court cases dealing with how to deal with people who are born of a given sex but identify with the opposite gender.

2- I didn't "create" this problem, it's one that predates my birth. Nor am I "pushing" it. I'm simply pointing it out.

3- I think a better word for what you're doing isn't rejecting the problem, so much as denying the fact that it exists. But that won't change the fact that it does in fact exist.

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:28 PM, Scott75 said:

Well that's certainly good to hear.

I'm not even sure what that means. What I want is for people to be able to define their gender as the gender they identify with.

They can do whatever they want. They can do that right now. So mission accomplished you're done  

No, they really can't. Wikipedia has a page on transgender rights. The opening paragraph outlines the challenges many transgender people face:

**

The legal status of transgender people varies greatly around the world. Some countries have enacted laws protecting the rights of transgender individuals, but others have criminalized their gender identity or expression. In many cases, transgender individuals face discrimination in employment, housing, healthcare, and other areas of life.

**

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_transgender_people

 

On 12/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, CdnFox said:

The problem however is that is NOT want you want. Or at least not all that you want

True, there's also the issue of them being identified by others as the gender they associate with. 

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:28 PM, Scott75 said:

I also think that being more accepting of people who don't fit inside the conventional norms for gender could go a long way to making trans people not feel the need for hormones/hormone blockers and surgery and just be fine with the appearance that their biological sex gives them.

So here we get to the problem. You don't just want people to be able to identify as they like. You want others to accept this identity and be compelled by law to promote their lie. And it is a lie, a man is not a woman just like it would be a lie for me to demand i identify as a minor and try to ride the bus for free or for a 30 year old to say he identifies as a 65 year old and demand his canada pension  

In the case of transgender people, it all depends on how we define a man and a woman. For those who define a man or a woman as whoever identifies as such, then transgender people are the gender they identify with. The problem, ofcourse, is that some people, such as yourself, don't want to define transgender people as belonging to the gender they identify with.

Ultimately, I believe that this type of thing will get resolved in favour of the transgender community, but I'm not sure how long it will take.

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, CdnFox said:

Now for the most part it's a relatively harmless lie in most cases and i think most people would consider it a white lie and play along because why not. 

But you won't let it rest there.  You demand that a man IS a woman and that everyone be required to lie by force of law, and that children be 'treated' without parental consent and that and real women be forced to expose themselves to men who claim to be women and to recieve women's benefits and play in their sports etc. 

 

That's a hell of a lot more than just having people define their gender. 

And people are getting sick of it, 

As I've already made clear in many posts, there are some transgender platforms that I don't agree with. While I support transgender people being labelled as the gender they identify with, I never said that I agreed that children by treated without parental consent. As a matter of fact, I've clearly stated that I don't think minors should be getting hormones, hormone blockers or transgender surgery even if one or both of their parents consent. I wouldn't say it's a completely solid stance, I may change my mind in the future, but that's my current stance.

I've also made it clear that I think that biological females should have the right to compete in sports where only biological females are allowed. As to the issue of exposure, I think that issue is thornier. One solution is to have things like unisex places where one can go to the washroom and change. Like female bathrooms, it could mean individual sealed stalls for anyone going to the washroom or changing. 

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:00 PM, User said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, CdnFox said:

You don't just want people to be able to identify as they like.

The real absurdity here is that he only wants trans people to be able to identify as they like... for the vast majority of the rest of us normal people, we must accept being called cisgender. 

As I've said before, there are other ways of differentiating between people who are transgender and people who are cisgender. They're just more cumbersome. The one I came up with previously are ones like this: "A biological man who identifies as a man". Cisgender is just shorter. If given a choice between the 2, I'd go with cisgender.

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:04 PM, User said:

On 12/22/2024 at 12:58 PM, Scott75 said:

Seems like a classic case of transphobia. In case you're not aware of the term, Wikipedia has a helpful article on the subject. Here's the introduction:

**

Transphobia consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence or anger towards people who do not conform to social gender roles.^[1][2] Transphobia is a type of prejudice and discrimination, similar to racism, sexism, or ableism,^[3] and it is closely associated with homophobia.^[4][5] People of color who are transgender experience discrimination above and beyond that which can be explained as a simple combination of transphobia and racism.^[6]

Transgender youth often experience a combination of abuse from family members, sexual harassment, and bullying or school violence.^[7] They are also disproportionately placed in foster care and welfare programs compared to their peers.^[8] Adult transgender people regularly encounter sexual violence, police violence, public ridicule, misgendering, or other forms of violence and harassment in their daily lives.^[9] These issues cause many trans people to feel unsafe in public. Other issues include healthcare discrimination, workplace discrimination or feeling under siege by conservative political or religious groups who oppose LGBT-rights laws.^[10] Discrimination and violence sometimes originates from people within the LGBT community^[11] or feminist movements.

As well as increased risk of violence and other threats, the stress created by transphobia causes negative mental health outcomes and lead to drug use disorders, running away from home (in minors), and suicide.

In much of the Western world, there has been a gradual establishment of policies combatting discrimination and supporting equal opportunity in all aspects of life since the 1990s. The trend is also taking shape in some developing nations. In addition, campaigns regarding the LGBT community are being spread around the world to improve social acceptance of nontraditional gender identities. The "Stop the Stigma" campaign by the UN is one such example.^[12] However, transphobic violence has been on the rise since 2021,^[13] accompanied with an increase in anti-trans discriminatory laws being enacted in many parts of the US and other countries.^[14][15]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

You don't get to pretend you are above the fray of making personal comments when you are here accusing someone of transphobia...

I'm just pointing out that you seem to have a case of transphobia. It's like noticing that someone is afraid of spiders (arachnophobia). I must admit I'm not a fan of the big ones. We all have our fears. The important thing is to try to deal with them as best we can. Sometimes, we can even overcome a given fear of something.

On 12/22/2024 at 1:04 PM, User said:

and you said someone would fit right in with the KKK earlier.

I said that in -some- ways, they'd fit right in with the KKK. I am happy to report that the person I said this to said they did -not- support the KKK. As I've mentioned, there are some, perhaps most, in the KKK, who are also against many elements of the LGTB community and say so in quite disparaging ways. My goal was to get them to realize that some groups which I had hoped they were -not- into are also quite disparaging of the LGTB community. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Scott75