Isreal and Palestine

[GostHacked]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4806714.stm

Israeli forces have captured a senior Palestinian militant leader after storming the jail where he was held in the West Bank town of Jericho.

Israel and Palestine are neither committed to peace, or the road map anymore.

Seems kind of wierd to me that the UN monitors were pulled out of that prision ony days ago (March 8th) due to security concerns. What concern would that have been? Someone knew, and gave them the heads up. This goes back and forth, back and forth. The monitors claim that the prision was not safe for them.

Israel attacks, Palestine answers,

Palestine attacks, Israel answers.

When was the last time you heard the term 'Road Map to Peace'? It has been a while.

[geoffrey]

Agreed. I wish there was a way to enforce that peace, but in a terrorism/guerilla vs. overwelming military might type of war, peacekeeping can only have limited effects. Israel would have to disarm and Hamas would have to go. Neither is going to happen.

It's trouble, and probably always will be for my life time. Holy wars are definitely the scariest types, as the victor is the one that either kills all others, or converts them to their beliefs. I can't see either happening soon.

[Hollus]

What choice do Palestinians have but gorilla warfare and suicice bombings? Palestinian children-like 7yr olds- are delibratly shot at the rate of 1 every 2 days. Children have been sniped in the head from sniper towers while doing school work in their classrooms. 1000 pound bombs dropped on schools for what reason? The official anwser: "It was a school funded by Hamas and they [children] would have been the next generation of suicide bombers". Walls and checkpoints prevent Palestinians from leaving their ghettos, unable to visit family that live with in walking distance from them. Children that live within sight of the mediterranian sea but have never been. Last year somthing like 170 days of the year were curfew days in which anyone seen in the street is shot dead; on these curfew days they've created street schools that take place in someones back room so the children can atain some kind of teaching. Children engage in stone throwing against fully armoured tanks in a show of resistance, this is a daily occurence; the tanks fire back and kill the children! The regular killing of small children is not an issue to Israel! Since the end of WWII Israel has been expanding its boarders by displacing Palestinian communities. How do they do it? They roll in to town with tanks leading the way, followed by specially built for Israel, armoured bulldozers; without even showing a face a voice comes over the loadspeaker telling the inhabitants that they have 2hrs to pack and leave. No previous warning. The houses are leveled and the former inhabitants move into friggin tents!

If I had to face the adversity that the Palestinians endure day in and day out, I'd probably blow myself up in protest too. Get out Israel. Quit supporting Israel America.

Also worth noting: Israel counts every stone thrown at their tanks as a terrorist attack. So when you hear some zionist freak saying Israel sustained 357 terrorist attacks last week, it just means their tanks were battling with stone throwers.

[Wilber]

The Israelis have nowhere to go. They are not going to voluntarily let their country be destroyed. No number of suicide bombers will change that. Israel retaliates on a case by case basis against specific targets. Suicide bombers target the populace in general. They both end up killing innocent people but with suicide bombers it is intentional.

Yes Israel has expanded its borders. They took Sinai in 1956 but have since returned it to Egypt. The one exception was the Six Day War when they took the West Bank and Golan Heights but it was Egypt that requested the UN peace keepers leave the area not the Israelis. Egypt and Syria were geared up to invade Israel but were beaten to the punch. In 1947 and 1972 it was the Arab countries who attacked Israel, not the other way around. After the surprise attack in 72 which came close to seeing Syrian tanks in Tel Aviv, it's no wonder they don't want to give the Golan Heights back. The West Bank is another problem. Blame enough for everyone there.

If some people you knew were shredded at your local mall by a suicide bomber, your opinion of them might change.

[Hollus]

The Israelis have nowhere to go. They are not going to voluntarily let their country be destroyed. No number of suicide bombers will change that. Israel retaliates on a case by case basis against specific targets. Suicide bombers target the populace in general. They both end up killing innocent people but with suicide bombers it is intentional.

And with every home they demolish they create a new population of people with nowhere to go. Dont try and say that Israel does not target the general population. Did you read my previous post? Childen are sniped for no apparent reason or for throwing rocks at tanks. If your child or little brother or childhood friend was delibratly shot by the Israeli military; or if tanks and bulldozers showed up outside your home which your family has lived for generations; or if you wittenessed your loved one shot and bled to death 20 yards away from you for being on the street outside your home on a curfew day, and not even being able to approach your loved one for the military ordering you not to move; your opinion of them might change.

[JerrySeinfeld]

When was the last time you heard the term 'Road Map to Peace'? It has been a while.

Hamas' "roadmap to peace":

Liquidate the jewish state.

[Wilber]

The Israelis have nowhere to go. They are not going to voluntarily let their country be destroyed. No number of suicide bombers will change that. Israel retaliates on a case by case basis against specific targets. Suicide bombers target the populace in general. They both end up killing innocent people but with suicide bombers it is intentional.

And with every home they demolish they create a new population of people with nowhere to go. Dont try and say that Israel does not target the general population. Did you read my previous post? Childen are sniped for no apparent reason or for throwing rocks at tanks. If your child or little brother or childhood friend was delibratly shot by the Israeli military; or if tanks and bulldozers showed up outside your home which your family has lived for generations; or if you wittenessed your loved one shot and bled to death 20 yards away from you for being on the street outside your home on a curfew day, and not even being able to approach your loved one for the military ordering you not to move; your opinion of them might change.

I have no respect for parents or any other adults who send children out to throw stones at tanks and men with guns.

I read your post. Your saying something doesn't make it so. More than enough children have been killed on both sides of this conflict.

[geoffrey]

Palestinian children-like 7yr olds- are delibratly shot at the rate of 1 every 2 days.

Source? That's actually unbelievable.

Children have been sniped in the head from sniper towers while doing school work in their classrooms. 1000 pound bombs dropped on schools for what reason? The official anwser: "It was a school funded by Hamas and they [children] would have been the next generation of suicide bombers".

And the difference in this from Hamas's suicide terrorists bombing pizza places and discos? Nothing.

Walls and checkpoints prevent Palestinians from leaving their ghettos, unable to visit family that live with in walking distance from them. Children that live within sight of the mediterranian sea but have never been. Last year somthing like 170 days of the year were curfew days in which anyone seen in the street is shot dead; on these curfew days they've created street schools that take place in someones back room so the children can atain some kind of teaching.

The walls and checkpoints are a tradegy. Ending terrorist attacks would end these though. The curfews are only implemented after high periods of terrorist activity. It's a defense action. If you go out in the street during a curfew, I have little sympathy.

Children engage in stone throwing against fully armoured tanks in a show of resistance, this is a daily occurence; the tanks fire back and kill the children! The regular killing of small children is not an issue to Israel!

You think they would stop throwing the rocks after the first few thousand eh? Violence from both sides is equally unacceptable. If they throw the rock first, self-defense is a justified principle. Lock up the kids, don't kill them, but lock them up for their disrespect of authority.

Since the end of WWII Israel has been expanding its boarders by displacing Palestinian communities. How do they do it? They roll in to town with tanks leading the way, followed by specially built for Israel, armoured bulldozers; without even showing a face a voice comes over the loadspeaker telling the inhabitants that they have 2hrs to pack and leave. No previous warning. The houses are leveled and the former inhabitants move into friggin tents!

That is a problem. Israel is currently dismantling many settlements so lets encourage them to do so to a greater extent.

If I had to face the adversity that the Palestinians endure day in and day out, I'd probably blow myself up in protest too. Get out Israel. Quit supporting Israel America.

Thats too bad. Violence in response is completely hypocritical and destroys my sympathy for their cause.

Also worth noting: Israel counts every stone thrown at their tanks as a terrorist attack. So when you hear some zionist freak saying Israel sustained 357 terrorist attacks last week, it just means their tanks were battling with stone throwers.

Your right, the number of attacks is not exactly correct. Terrorists bombing pizza places though are terrorist attacks, and since Hamas has claimed responsibility for them, Hamas is a terrorist organization. And since a terrorist organization is the government of the country, Palestine is a terrorist state! Pretty simple.

I have some sympathy for the Palestinians, just as I do for the Israeli's. Both have to stop being so freakin stupid. I'm ok with Israel defending itself against terrorist attacks. They have to, thats the duty of a government. I'm not ok with expansionism however, with the exception of the Golan Heights as it was a defensive move against idiots that were shelling from it into civilian Israeli settlements.

[scribblet]

What choice do Palestinians have but gorilla warfare and suicice bombings? Palestinian children-like 7yr olds- are delibratly shot at the rate of 1 every 2 days.

I don't believe that, back up please.

Palestine has a choice, they can choose to accept Israel's right to exist and can choose peace. They can choose to love their children more than they hate Israel, and can choose to build up their country and infrastructure as Israel (PLO ) do not want peace, they want Israel gone.

Back in 1960 at the U.N. Golda Meir challenged Arab leaders to meet with P.M. David Ben-Gurion to negotiate a peace settlement. Nasser answered on October 15, saying that Israel was trying to deceive world opinion, and reiterateed that his country would never recognize the Jewish State..... and on it goes.

As long as the PLO continues terrorism and uses their kids as human bombs there will never be peace.

[GostHacked]

I blame both sides really.

As a Palestinian I would be pissed to if some people were given a chunk of your homestead (without you having any say in the process (Israel was created after WWII for the displaced jews. Then slowly bit by bit, that is taken away. You find out that your new neighbour that has been placed is starting to take over your land. And they take more, and more and more. Then they say that the Palestinians are terrorists and must recognize Isreal's right to exist. I don't think they should recognize Isreal. Isreal does not seem to have recognized Palestine. So to ME ... Israel is the real problem.

Call me whatever you want. But until you understand how/when/why Israel was created, you won't understand why the Palestinians go to the extremes that they do. If all else failed, and diplomacy failed,

It is a good gesture from Israel to get out of some of the settlements. But sends a horrible message when they level the place after evacuating. Leaving what exaclty behind? Nothing.

I am against the grain on this. I know alot support Israel, but I cannot. I personaly do not recognize Isreal's right to exist. Just so we are clear on this. This is my view on this.

[GostHacked]

Ahh,, now I see what the fuss is about.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscont...hp3?artid=12192

Just. Seems . Fishy.

[Hollus]

Source for Geoffrey and scribblet:http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMD...&of=ENG-PSE. from Amnesty International. Mabye not everyone was delibratly killed, but enough were that it is considered routine.

To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live.

How can it be considered justifyable for fully armoured tanks to fire back at stonethrowers? there is no threat, their killing them for because the children are expressing their anger.

Lubna's house was demolished in the last incursion. Her family are squeezed into an aunt's house, within sight of the Israeli military. Lubna, 11, says: 'I feel afraid of the bulldozers and tanks, but throw stones at them because the Israelis are bad. They kicked us out of our home and beat my dad.'

There are many undeniable casses of children who pose absolutly no threat- just walking to school, or hanging laundry, or sitting in UN schools- being shot to death.

Israeli soldiers shot dead 13-year-old Iman al-Hams near her school in Rafah. According to an army communication recording of the incident and testimonies of soldiers, a commander repeatedly shot the child at close range even though soldiers had identified her as "a little girl... scared to death". The commander was charged with illegal use of his weapon, obstructing justice, improper use of authority and unbecoming conduct. He was not charged with murder or manslaughter.

Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats.

Why waste ammunition? A few days ago, an Israel Defense Forces soldier fired at two boys in the casbah of Nablus. Just a lone bullet that penetrated the body of one of the boys, exited, penetrated the second boy, and killed both of them. Two 15-year-old boys standing with their arms around each other on the street that descends to the marketplace.

Raghda Alassar's classmates did not hear the Israeli bullet that tore into the nine-year-old's brain as she wrote an English test. But as a pool of blood spread across her desk and spilled on to the floor, a wall of screams rose from the classroom of the UN elementary school for girls in Khan Yunis.

The list goes on...

[Wilber]

Hollus

"To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live."

I've no doubt the Israelis are deserving of some share of the blame. I see your list. What were the sources?

So the parents aren't responsible for their children's actions because they won't listen to them and the children aren't responsible for their actions because they are children. I guess you're right, it must be the Israeli soldier's fault that children are throwing stones at them and they should stand there and take it like adults, right.

Those parents of suicide bombers you see being interviewed saying how proud they are that their children are martyrs obviously loved their children more than they hate the Israelis as well, I suppose.

GossHacked

"I am against the grain on this. I know alot support Israel, but I cannot. I personaly do not recognize Isreal's right to exist. Just so we are clear on this. This is my view on this."

Israel does exist whether people choose to recognize it or not and nothing short of another genocide will stop it from existing. It's time that was recognized by everyone. Until it is, nothing will change in the Middle East.

[Hollus]

Hollus

"To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live."

I've no doubt the Israelis are deserving of some share of the blame. I see your list. What were the sources?

Here's a few:Snipers with children in their sights , Officer who emptied M16 into girl given compensation by state , Two girls, two shots to the head, Video of Israeli soldier shooting palestinian boy, Palestinian girl shot while at UN school in Gaza Strip dies of injuries

They are not hard to find, otherwise I would have posted them before. These are not isolated cases.

So the parents aren't responsible for their children's actions because they won't listen to them and the children aren't responsible for their actions because they are children. I guess you're right, it must be the Israeli soldier's fault that children are throwing stones at them and they should stand there and take it like adults, right.

You understand that the children are being killed for throwing stones at fully armoured tanks right? Yes, they love the oppertuntiy to hit exposed soldiers, but the soldiers are not so stupid to expose themselves without well positioned gunmen to shoot anything that moves. Or of course their continued use of human shields. Israeli Army Continues Use of Palestinians as Human Shields

Those parents of suicide bombers you see being interviewed saying how proud they are that their children are martyrs obviously loved their children more than they hate the Israelis as well, I suppose.

Somthing I think niether you or I could relate too. Ive never lived under a military occupation. Have you?

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...aza-060407.html

Israel stepping up operations in the past couple weeks. Several rocket attacks, ect. Overresponse for one suicide bomber.

[Minimus Maximus]

To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live.

While I fully agree that there are many Palastinian parents who love their children too much to allow them to take part in agressive activities against fully armed Israeli soldiers, I think that there are also many on both sides of this conflict that live vicariously through the violent acts of their children.

Interviewer: Umm Nidal is a woman who voluntarily sacrificed her sons for the sake of resisting the occupiers. This woman always declared loud and clear: My sons did not commit suicide. My sons went and fought. None of them intended – even accidentally – to kill civilians, children or the elderly. They all resisted and confronted the enemy. They had achievements and they were martyred.

Umm Nidal is with us today, because she is presenting herself to the world in a new capacity, as a candidate for the Palestinian Legislative Council.

[...]

Umm Nidal: I protect my sons from defying Allah, or from choosing a path that would not please Allah. This is what I fear, when it comes to my sons. But as for sacrifice, Jihad for the sake of Allah, or performing the duty they were charged with - this makes me happy.

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=980

I can't find any justification for taking either side in this dipute as each of them are equally responsible for violent acts perpetrated on the other. Muslim and Jewish parents are to blame for teaching children to hate with the kind of venom that results in a child growing up to become a soldier who fires a round in to a childs head or a suicide bomber who stands in the middle of crowded market and goes boom...literally.

[Hollus]

To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live.

While I fully agree that there are many Palastinian parents who love their children too much to allow them to take part in agressive activities against fully armed Israeli soldiers, I think that there are also many on both sides of this conflict that live vicariously through the violent acts of their children.

Interviewer: Umm Nidal is a woman who voluntarily sacrificed her sons for the sake of resisting the occupiers. This woman always declared loud and clear: My sons did not commit suicide. My sons went and fought. None of them intended – even accidentally – to kill civilians, children or the elderly. They all resisted and confronted the enemy. They had achievements and they were martyred.

Umm Nidal is with us today, because she is presenting herself to the world in a new capacity, as a candidate for the Palestinian Legislative Council.

[...]

Umm Nidal: I protect my sons from defying Allah, or from choosing a path that would not please Allah. This is what I fear, when it comes to my sons. But as for sacrifice, Jihad for the sake of Allah, or performing the duty they were charged with - this makes me happy.

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=980

I can't find any justification for taking either side in this dipute as each of them are equally responsible for violent acts perpetrated on the other. Muslim and Jewish parents are to blame for teaching children to hate with the kind of venom that results in a child growing up to become a soldier who fires a round in to a childs head or a suicide bomber who stands in the middle of crowded market and goes boom...literally.

Israel is an invading force. They are the only nation in the world that does not have declared boarders. Everyone talks about how Palestine wants to eliminate Israel but that is not happening. It is Israel who is eliminating Palestine.

[scribblet]

To those of you that seem to think the children are incouraged by their parents to engage in stonethrowing you are mistaken. Of course they love their children more than they hate Israel, the children engage in this defiance themselves and catch hell from it from their parents. Can you picture any parent sitting at their kitchen table when their child arrives from throwing stones at fully armoured tanks- obviously posing no threat- to which the tanks routinly return lethal fire; could you picture that parent saying: "oh great johnny, maybe you dented the steel. If you throw enough rocks maybe you might eventually do some damage." No, I dont think thats what its like. From what Ive heard and read, parents go searching for their children if they suspect they might be stone throwing because they want their children to live.

While I fully agree that there are many Palastinian parents who love their children too much to allow them to take part in agressive activities against fully armed Israeli soldiers, I think that there are also many on both sides of this conflict that live vicariously through the violent acts of their children.

I can't find any justification for taking either side in this dipute as each of them are equally responsible for violent acts perpetrated on the other. Muslim and Jewish parents are to blame for teaching children to hate with the kind of venom that results in a child growing up to become a soldier who fires a round in to a childs head or a suicide bomber who stands in the middle of crowded market and goes boom...literally.

Israel is an invading force. They are the only nation in the world that does not have declared boarders. Everyone talks about how Palestine wants to eliminate Israel but that is not happening. It is Israel who is eliminating Palestine.

Well, I don't have any declared boarders either,

Back in 1949, Israel did agree with each of its neighbours on ceasefire lines that also defined the westbank and Gaza.

As far as parents hating Israel more than loving their children, I believe Golda Meir would still believe that today, and so do I. The teaching of hatred in PLO schools is embedded in their curriculum, parents do encourage their children to commit violence, they believe that turning their kids into human bombs makes them a martyr.

Taking sides - I side with Israel for the most part. Israel consists of less than 1% of the total Arab territories -- 6 million Jews surrounded by over a hundred and fifty million Arabs ...most of whom want to see Israelis dead and in the sea.

Maybe if Israeli terrorists were deliberately blowing up Palestinian school buses; using their kids as human bombs; rabbis were denigrating Arabs as "the sons of monkeys and pigs," and if Israelis danced in the streets celebrating 9/11 and the deaths, I might not be so sympathetic to them.

I'll be more sympathetic to the 'Palestinians' when they recognize that Israel and its people have a right to exist, and when that happens, maybe they will be ready for their own state.

[Hollus]

Well, I don't have any declared boarders either,

Back in 1949, Israel did agree with each of its neighbours on ceasefire lines that also defined the westbank and Gaza.

As far as parents hating Israel more than loving their children, I believe Golda Meir would still believe that today, and so do I. The teaching of hatred in PLO schools is embedded in their curriculum, parents do encourage their children to commit violence, they believe that turning their kids into human bombs makes them a martyr.

Taking sides - I side with Israel for the most part. Israel consists of less than 1% of the total Arab territories -- 6 million Jews surrounded by over a hundred and fifty million Arabs ...most of whom want to see Israelis dead and in the sea.

Maybe if Israeli terrorists were deliberately blowing up Palestinian school buses; using their kids as human bombs; rabbis were denigrating Arabs as "the sons of monkeys and pigs," and if Israelis danced in the streets celebrating 9/11 and the deaths, I might not be so sympathetic to them.

I'll be more sympathetic to the 'Palestinians' when they recognize that Israel and its people have a right to exist, and when that happens, maybe they will be ready for their own state.

The 1949 Armistice Agreements stated: 5(2). In no sense are the cease-fire lines to be interpreted as political or territorial borders and their delineation in no way affects the rights, demands or positions of any of the parties to the cease-fire agreements regarding the final disposition of the Palestine question.

5(3). The fundamental objective of the cease-fire lines is to serve as a line beyond which the armed forces of each of the parties will deploy.

I wonder how people here in north america would react if an ethnic group were promised a large area of densely populated land by foriegn powers. How many Torontonians or New Yorkers would happily pack up and move in a matter of hours into a refugee tent so that some persecuted minority in Africa could have a home.

Does Israel recognize Palestines right to exist?

They deliberatly drop 1000lb bombs on Palestinian schools, shoot Palestinian children for no apparent reason and retaliate for attacks by targeting civilian infustructure.

[KrustyKidd]

I wonder how people here in north america would react if an ethnic group were promised a large area of densely populated land by foriegn powers. How many Torontonians or New Yorkers would happily pack up and move in a matter of hours into a refugee tent so that some persecuted minority in Africa could have a home.

We are not them. You work with the premise that this can continually go back a half centurey when the here and now reality is that there are millions of people who need to live together as none of them are moving. So, historical references to British and biblical times are not going to work in any way shape or form.

They deliberatly drop 1000lb bombs on Palestinian schools, shoot Palestinian children for no apparent reason and retaliate for attacks by targeting civilian infustructure.

No, afraid you have that a bit skewed. Hamas likes to position their operations in civiliian facilities so they will get the added protection of using people as a shield. There are enogh legitimate targets that israel does not need to do as you have said and, while mistakes are made, they are no 100% hit on civillians like the PLO and their Hamas buddies continually do.

[Hollus]

I wonder how people here in north america would react if an ethnic group were promised a large area of densely populated land by foriegn powers. How many Torontonians or New Yorkers would happily pack up and move in a matter of hours into a refugee tent so that some persecuted minority in Africa could have a home.

We are not them. You work with the premise that this can continually go back a half centurey when the here and now reality is that there are millions of people who need to live together as none of them are moving. So, historical references to British and biblical times are not going to work in any way shape or form.

I dont see any references to British or biblical times in the qoute of mine that you posted, so I dont really know what your saying. I guess your reffering to the mention of Zionist terrorism in the mid-century that I had made in a different thread. I thought it was worth mentioning that Israel was founded thanks in part to terrorism. I was making what I think is a valid point between to minorities that used terrorism for political purpose.

What is terrorism? How do you distinguish between a battalion of soldiers rolling down the street shooting at everything in sight and a suicide bomber?

Working on the premise that this can continually go back a half a century? What premise was Israel founded on?

As for the qoute of mine about north americans giving up there homes for a minority: I think the best comparrison would be if our Torontonians and New Yorkers were to give up their cities- through dictation by foreign nations- for the creation of a Native American state. How would that be any different than what happened with the creation of Israel?

They deliberatly drop 1000lb bombs on Palestinian schools, shoot Palestinian children for no apparent reason and retaliate for attacks by targeting civilian infustructure.

No, afraid you have that a bit skewed. Hamas likes to position their operations in civiliian facilities so they will get the added protection of using people as a shield. There are enogh legitimate targets that israel does not need to do as you have said and, while mistakes are made, they are no 100% hit on civillians like the PLO and their Hamas buddies continually do.

While you do have a point about Hamas using human shields(somthing Israel also does), you are wrong about there being no 100% hits on civilians and I dont think its a fair comparrison being that Israel has a well funded military to carry out its operations. If Palestinians could storm into Israel with armour and air support to arrest militants Im sure they'd drop the suicide thing pretty quick.

I know Im defending some perpetraitors of some henious acts. Its just that I notice the majority of people side with Israel and look down on Palestine as some barbarian race. I think its important to look beyond the horror of their tactics and try to understand the cause. In the American War of Independence revolutionaries used unconventional tactics against british forces that were considered barbarious and uncivilized at the time. During World War II and Vietnam cities were indesriminatly bombed; Japanese used komakazi. It does not surprise me that an out gunned force would use such tactics as suicide bombing civilian populations as a means for war, so I dont think that nation should be isolated based on their sorry state of military force.

[KrustyKidd]

You did refer to a half century ago though when you gave the example of an ethnic group being promised land which the peole of Toronto were supposed to leave in order to give. My point is that the facts are the facts, and nobody is going anyhere. Hence to say that they owned this or had the right to that is meaningless as the situation is what lies on the ground in the present.

Its just that I notice the majority of people side with Israel and look down on Palestine as some barbarian race.

I don't recall any Israeli organization other than fringe calling for the extermination and killing of Palestinians.

I think you say the rest here pretty good.

It does not surprise me that an out gunned force would use such tactics as suicide bombing civilian populations as a means for war, so I dont think that nation should be isolated based on their sorry state of military force.

So, Israel is wrong to vet out those who kill civillians and are wrong for doing so. Got it.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Krusty Kid,

Hence to say that they owned this or had the right to that is meaningless as the situation is what lies on the ground in the present.

I'll have to disagree here, 'might makes right' or 'might makes rights' is something I know to be true, but believe humans should choose otherwise.

I don't recall any Israeli organization other than fringe calling for the extermination and killing of Palestinians.

'Wiping Israel off the map' could be done with an eraser, I think only the fringe of Arabic fanatics are calling for murder. Mind you, the 'fringe' there is much larger and louder.

So, Israel is wrong to vet out those who kill civillians and are wrong for doing so. Got it.

There would be much more support for Israel, worldwide, if they only did what you infer. I doubt very much that you will hear any world leader, least of all a western one, say "Hey, we should be following Israel's example!"

[KrustyKidd]

I'll have to disagree here, 'might makes right' or 'might makes rights' is something I know to be true, but believe humans should choose otherwise.

Itr is a fact Israel is more powerful. And, they will not become less powerful. And, they will continue to respond to attacks by Palestinians as they do. Nobody can expect them to do otherwise. We can however, expect Palestinains to get their act together and negotiate in good faith as that is the only variable in the whole equation.

There would be much more support for Israel, worldwide, if they only did what you infer. I doubt very much that you will hear any world leader, least of all a western one, say "Hey, we should be following Israel's example!"

Got news for you and the rest of the people who thnk that way Lonius. Israel doesn't care what you think. They are doing whatever they can to protect their people, just as any good government should do. All considerations secondary. I do remember one government taking a lot of flak over concessions to the Palestinians. Hamas didn't like that one though and returned to their default postiion of suicide bombings.

As I stated, one variable. Deal with it fair or not.

[GostHacked]

Isreal has sure stepped up the attacks recently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4904354.stm

THis is about the 5th or 6th time in the last week Israel has shot rockets into Palestinian land.

Palestine - Once suicide bomber

Isreal - 5 gunship rocket attacks.

Killing more innocent lives. One or two children where killed in the attacks.

YAY for peace!