Isreal and Palestine

[Black Dog]

I see it as the Israelis doing all the giving and the Hamas giving nothing. I also see it as when the Palestinians get everything they claim rights to there still will be conflict in the area , as they will not be satisified until they get it all.

If you mean the territories currently occupied by Israel, why sholdn't they "get it all". Personally, I'd rather see everyone living in a single, democratic secular state, but neither side seems interested.

As for them voting for the Hamas to end the corruption, they put all thier hopes and dreams into a Terrorist organization who's sole purpose is to continue the fight in the elemination of Israel. That to me sends a clear message they are more concerned with the corruption than peace...and does nothing to support the claim that the majority want peace.

The Palestinians just can't win with you. On the one hand, you criticize them for not building anything (which ties directly into the corruption of the past leadership) and then, when they take a stand against said corruption, you accus ethem of not wanting peace. Has it occurred to you that peace is contingent upon a stable civil society and a stable civil society is contingent upon stable non-corrupt governance?

My piont is that on both sides it is not a minority but the majority that drives both sides agenda's

Well, you don't seem to have anything to back that up.

That is what the link was for, and yes i do believe that most arabs in the region would rejoice if israel meet it's end....As for sloppy thinking , no more than someone stating that the majority of palestinians wanting peace with Israel. Because thier actions do not prove that, we do not see the palestinians making an effort to curb terrorism, police thier side of the borders, control thier people, nor changing thier minds thru thier media that peace is thier prime objective....because it is not, action speaks louder than words...

I addressed this slopy logic already, but I'll reiterate: what makes you think the average Mohammed has any power to influence Hamas, or Islamic Jihad or any other militant group, let alone the direction of the whole state? What's more, it's recognized that the segment of the population charged with performing some of the tasks above is thoroughly corrupt, yet you seem to take any Palestinian concerns with corruption as some kind of sign of self-absorbtion. Again: they just can't win with you.

I do believe i've posted before that the Israelis are no angels and have taken part in terrorist activities. What i find fustrating about this whole topic is everyone loves the under dog when in this case the underdog brought alot of thier problems on thier selfs.

And while thier is no mention of just how they ended up in their current postion, and whom else share in that blame such as the other Muslim countries in that region. and just what have they done for there brothers in arms...The entire world does not care about this situation nor do they care about finding a solution...nor will they let Isreal solve it militarily so it will continue to fester until it explodes.

I don't think anyone is absolving the Plaestinians or Arab regimes in the region of anything. However, to me at least, it boils down to this: Israel, by virtue of its military hegemony, economic superemacy and political affiliations has the most clout. They hold the cards. It's patently absurd to expect the side who has nothing to be the miracle workers here

[lost&outofcontrol]

The entire world does not care about this situation nor do they care about finding a solution...nor will they let Isreal solve it militarily so it will continue to fester until it explodes.

What's your solution to problem. Just asking.

[Army Guy]

BD:

If you mean the territories currently occupied by Israel, why sholdn't they "get it all". Personally, I'd rather see everyone living in a single, democratic secular state, but neither side seems interested

Why should'nt they get it all, perhaps the below link will help to explain some of Israel postion. And the more reseach i do on the topic the more i agree with.

My Webpage

My Webpage

The Palestinians just can't win with you. On the one hand, you criticize them for not building anything (which ties directly into the corruption of the past leadership) and then, when they take a stand against said corruption, you accus ethem of not wanting peace. The Palestinians just can't win with you. On the one hand, you criticize them for not building anything (which ties directly into the corruption of the past leadership) and then, when they take a stand against said corruption, you accus ethem of not wanting peace. Has it occurred to you that peace is contingent upon a stable civil society and a stable civil society is contingent upon stable non-corrupt governance

Not only have they not built any infra structure, or improved living conditions within the territories for themselfs, but they have failed in controling thier own people, According to you and your polls those people responsable for all these security violations"bombings etc " are a small portion of the population...They have failed to police themselfs, And as you said repeatily it's because of corruption of past leadership. OK i'll buy that, but is that the whole problem, the fact that the PLO was a terrorist organization lead by terrorist which was really not thier to govern but to fight....

What do you think is going to change with the Hamas do you think they are there to govern, or do you think they are thier to fight....after remarks coming from Hamas government officals it looks like they are there to fight...What is going to change.

Has it occurred to you that peace is contingent upon a stable civil society and a stable civil society is contingent upon stable non-corrupt governance

Yes it has occured to me Are you saying that the Hamas is the answer, When are you guys going to wake up they are thier to destroy the state of Israel, not to govern the people of palestine.

My piont is that on both sides it is not a minority but the majority that drives both sides agenda's

Well, you don't seem to have anything to back that up

You can see the piont clearly in thier ways they educate thier children, in thier litature, in thier media, I'm talking about both sides not just the palestinians. I've been there as a peace keeper in the sinai desert, patroled the streets on the Egyptian side of the border, talked to the people. spent some time in Israel None of the people i talked to had kind words about each other. Granted they were not in the Gaza strip, but i can't see them being any more friendily towards each other, especially in todays enviroment.

If what you say is true that the majority want peace with israel then perhaps you can find a palestinian web site or an Israelis web site that is not critical of each other, that represents the majority of the people. If the majority wants peace it should be easy to find something that voices thier opinions, other than polls. I've tried and have found one or two but nothing that suggests a majority opinion.

addressed this slopy logic already, but I'll reiterate: what makes you think the average Mohammed has any power to influence Hamas, or Islamic Jihad or any other militant group, let alone the direction of the whole state?

They had a chioce when they voted,"unless you are saying that the Hamas rigged the election" They have the power of numbers, unless it is agains't Hamas policy to speak out again'st thier rule...If they truely wanted peace as thier number one concern then they should demonstrate that to thier government. It has worked in other countries. They have not done that. I'm sure had they, world opinion would slowly change.

But you are right thier whole government system is based on corruption and to stop that the vote in another terrorist group, who has the same goals as the PLO. what changes have the Hamas taken to control the corruption, what changes have they taken in regards to peace with Israel.

So far they have stated they dream of a world map without Israel on it, and that NO palestinian will be arrested for acting again'st the occupation of israel. How do you see change in that.

What's more, it's recognized that the segment of the population charged with performing some of the tasks above is thoroughly corrupt, yet you seem to take any Palestinian concerns with corruption as some kind of sign of self-absorbtion. Again: they just can't win with you.

They can't win because they continuily act to destroy the peace process every chance they get. They continue to cry they are the underdog, but fail to do anything for themselfs. They continue to produce hate in thier schools, thier religious services, and thru thier governments actions.

I don't think anyone is absolving the Plaestinians or Arab regimes in the region of anything. However, to me at least, it boils down to this: Israel, by virtue of its military hegemony, economic superemacy and political affiliations has the most clout. They hold the cards. It's patently absurd to expect the side who has nothing to be the miracle workers here

No Israel does not hold all the cards, The arab armies have the trump hand in all this, perhaps the only reason that Israel has not taken direct military action to solve the problem, that and world opinion and what thier actions maybe . Regardless the Arab world has had thier hands in creating this problem dating back before 1948. And they should have a role to play in finding a solution.

Israel has military,enconomic superemacy because it is forced to in order to survive, The palestinians must do the same thing if they are to survive. But instead sit and do nothing and then cry to the world and blame Israel for thier problems. they don't have to be miricle workers,but they have to show they are atleast trying.

[Army Guy]

lost&outofcontrol:

What's your solution to problem. Just asking.

Even if Israel pulls back and gives the Palestinians everything they ask for, how long do you think that solution will last, Who is going to support this new nation ?, the land itself will not support thier population, and if it does not have the powers to control it's people how can Israel be assured it's security ?.

The current road to peace is a tempory fix atmost and only under ideal circumstances will it temporily work at all.

There is no 100 % solution that is going to make everyone happy, Not without massive support of all involved including the surrounding Arab nations and redefining of alot of borders. But that is not going to happen.

[Black Dog]

Not only have they not built any infra structure, or improved living conditions within the territories for themselfs, but they have failed in controling thier own people, According to you and your polls those people responsable for all these security violations"bombings etc " are a small portion of the population...They have failed to police themselfs, And as you said repeatily it's because of corruption of past leadership. OK i'll buy that, but is that the whole problem, the fact that the PLO was a terrorist organization lead by terrorist which was really not thier to govern but to fight....

What do you think is going to change with the Hamas do you think they are there to govern, or do you think they are thier to fight....after remarks coming from Hamas government officals it looks like they are there to fight...What is going to change.

Just to be clear: you want the Palestinians to renounce violence?

You can see the piont clearly in thier ways they educate thier children, in thier litature, in thier media, I'm talking about both sides not just the palestinians. I've been there as a peace keeper in the sinai desert, patroled the streets on the Egyptian side of the border, talked to the people. spent some time in Israel None of the people i talked to had kind words about each other. Granted they were not in the Gaza strip, but i can't see them being any more friendily towards each other, especially in todays enviroment.

If what you say is true that the majority want peace with israel then perhaps you can find a palestinian web site or an Israelis web site that is not critical of each other, that represents the majority of the people. If the majority wants peace it should be easy to find something that voices thier opinions, other than polls. I've tried and have found one or two but nothing that suggests a majority opinion.

It's funny you should menion polls. As I said, the majority of Palestinians support the peace process. The election of Kudima in Israel also would seem to indicate most Israelis want the conflict resolved.

As to the fact that uncritical or nonpartisan information is hard to find, well, IMV, that's less a reflection of the atttitudes on the ground as the strong emotions this issue invokes.

They had a chioce when they voted,"unless you are saying that the Hamas rigged the election" They have the power of numbers, unless it is agains't Hamas policy to speak out again'st thier rule...If they truely wanted peace as thier number one concern then they should demonstrate that to thier government. It has worked in other countries. They have not done that. I'm sure had they, world opinion would slowly change.

The choices, really, were between Hamas and the corrupt old guard. Of course neither option is okay by you, which leads me to wonder just what you expect the average Palestinain to do (other than roll over)?

But you are right thier whole government system is based on corruption and to stop that the vote in another terrorist group, who has the same goals as the PLO. what changes have the Hamas taken to control the corruption, what changes have they taken in regards to peace with Israel.

So far they have stated they dream of a world map without Israel on it, and that NO palestinian will be arrested for acting again'st the occupation of israel. How do you see change in that.

Again, options being what they are, what result were you expecting?

They can't win because they continuily act to destroy the peace process every chance they get. They continue to cry they are the underdog, but fail to do anything for themselfs. They continue to produce hate in thier schools, thier religious services, and thru thier governments actions

*throws up hands* Yeah i guess your right. The Paeltinians are, as a people, completely irredeemable, every individual is reponsible for the actions of the government, and they are completely responsible for every misfortune, every bulldozed home and gut-shot child. It's Israel, with the most advanced military in the region (plus the unconditional backing of the world's superpower) and total control over the Palestinian Authority's borders and economy that's the real victim here. [/sarcasm]

No Israel does not hold all the cards, The arab armies have the trump hand in all this, perhaps the only reason that Israel has not taken direct military action to solve the problem, that and world opinion and what thier actions maybe . Regardless the Arab world has had thier hands in creating this problem dating back before 1948. And they should have a role to play in finding a solution.

You are award that Israel has peace agreements with jordan and Egypt and overwhelming military supremacy, right? So the "Arab armies" aren't the issue. (Plus it was the machinations of the western powers that created this mess).

Israel has military,enconomic superemacy because it is forced to in order to survive, The palestinians must do the same thing if they are to survive. But instead sit and do nothing and then cry to the world and blame Israel for thier problems. they don't have to be miricle workers,but they have to show they are atleast trying.

It's hard to stand up with a boot on your throat.

[GostHacked]

I am wondering why so many support Israel at face value. And why does Israel always play the victim? If Israel did not get the support from the US as it does now. Israel would be GONE. It would not exist. Make it fair and give the Palestinians what the Israelis have. Even out the fight so it is fair.

Not only have they not built any infra structure, or improved living conditions within the territories for themselfs, but they have failed in controling thier own people, According to you and your polls those people responsable for all these security violations"bombings etc " are a small portion of the population...They have failed to police themselfs, And as you said repeatily it's because of corruption of past leadership. OK i'll buy that, but is that the whole problem, the fact that the PLO was a terrorist organization lead by terrorist which was really not thier to govern but to fight....

Hard to control the population when it is being scattered constantly. Hard to settle down in an area when your houses are blown up by rockets and bulldozers. Hard to control the displaced REALLY PISSED off population. Again someone comes to your home, takes part of it over, because all the neighbours said it was okay to take a room in your house, now that 'guest' has taken over most of your house and people wonder why you are pissed at them and want to take revenge. But in everyones eye, the Palestinians and the bad guy.

The media and journalists (like youi Army Guy) always seem to propr up Isreal blindly. This gives a biased view towards Isreal and people support it because we don't want anything to happen to the poor Jews.

I would be fighting too

[Army Guy]

BD:

Just to be clear: you want the Palestinians to renounce violence?

For starters Yes,

It's funny you should menion polls. As I said, the majority of Palestinians support the peace process. The election of Kudima in Israel also would seem to indicate most Israelis want the conflict resolved.

As to the fact that uncritical or nonpartisan information is hard to find, well, IMV, that's less a reflection of the atttitudes on the ground as the strong emotions this issue invokes.

Strong emotions indeed, But when asked they are saying they support the peace process, But thier actions or in some cases lack of action say other wise. What signal would a million palestinians marching for peace say to not only the Hamas but the Israelis. But we have not seen that have we, like i said thier is power in numbers and all they got to do is show up and march....

The choices, really, were between Hamas and the corrupt old guard. Of course neither option is okay by you, which leads me to wonder just what you expect the average Palestinain to do (other than roll over)?

There was choices as seen in the below link, they just had to make one.

My Webpage

Again, options being what they are, what result were you expecting?

Better ones than they choose, curruption was there main concern, not peace...and if you want to stop corruption you don't vote in the mafia...

*throws up hands* Yeah i guess your right. The Paeltinians are, as a people, completely irredeemable, every individual is reponsible for the actions of the government, and they are completely responsible for every misfortune, every bulldozed home and gut-shot child. It's Israel, with the most advanced military in the region (plus the unconditional backing of the world's superpower) and total control over the Palestinian Authority's borders and economy that's the real victim here. [/sarcasm]

They've been feed a line of BS and believe it to be true, you can not deny the fact that they are taught this at an early age, and it's being reinforced by Israelis actions Tit for TAT ...This is happening on both sides...And yes the people are responsable for the actions of thier government, just like we are, and again they are responsable for every misfortune that happens...do you think the Israelis would doze houses if thier was no bombings,

Someone has to control the borders as the PA authority is not doing it.

And economy what economy...and if they are so dependant on working inside Israel, or Israelis goods why do they continue to bite the hand that feeds them.

You are award that Israel has peace agreements with jordan and Egypt and overwhelming military supremacy, right? So the "Arab armies" aren't the issue.

Yes i'm aware of the peace agreements that were signed, in fact your aware that a peace agreement has not been signed with palestine right. Yes there were declarations and accords none were signed or put into effect.

Egypt has well over 300,000 troops under arms in thier army this figure does not include navy, nor airforce.

(Egypt is agressivily purchasing american wpns the same arms as Israel is now equiped with.)

Jordan has well over 100,000 army troops " " "

Syria has well over 250,000 troops under arms " " '"

Isreal has 130,000 troops in thier army ' " '''

So Israel does not have overwhelming military superiority in the area. in fact they are just a bit outnumbered by close to 5 to 1.... But i understand your piont given the Arabs records in past battles..

(Plus it was the machinations of the western powers that created this mess).

So we leave it to the british to sort this all out, or maybe the US, somehow thier sterling record in Iraq is not filling me with a warm fuzzy on this....

I don't see this ending anytime soon, and i don't see it ending good for the palestinians. I also believe that the surrounding Arab countries have more than a minor role they are playing in this conflict...

[Black Dog]

QUOTE

Just to be clear: you want the Palestinians to renounce violence?

For starters Yes,

Will Israel?

Strong emotions indeed, But when asked they are saying they support the peace process, But thier actions or in some cases lack of action say other wise. What signal would a million palestinians marching for peace say to not only the Hamas but the Israelis. But we have not seen that have we, like i said thier is power in numbers and all they got to do is show up and march....

Putting aside the fact that large gatherings of Palestinians tend to attract more Israeli tanks than accolades, I think what you're displaying here is a kind of cultural transference: you're irked that the Palestinians aren't acting like you think they should act without any consideration of whether or not such actions are even feasible or indeed, warranted.

There was choices as seen in the below link, they just had to make one.

My Webpage

So democracy only matters if "we" first approve of the options?

Better ones than they choose, curruption was there main concern, not peace...and if you want to stop corruption you don't vote in the mafia...

Question: since attaining office, what has Hamas done that warrants the response its recieved?

They've been feed a line of BS and believe it to be true, you can not deny the fact that they are taught this at an early age, and it's being reinforced by Israelis actions Tit for TAT ...This is happening on both sides...And yes the people are responsable for the actions of thier government, just like we are, and again they are responsable for every misfortune that happens...

Intersting you support the idea that citizens are responsible for the actions of the state: by such logic, suicide bombings are a viable option (especially against a state where most citizens are past, present of future member sof the armed forces). But I digress.

do you think the Israelis would doze houses if thier was no bombings,

Yes I do. Israeli "retaliation" for terror attacks has and continues to be completely disproportinate.

Someone has to control the borders as the PA authority is not doing it.

And economy what economy...and if they are so dependant on working inside Israel, or Israelis goods why do they continue to bite the hand that feeds them.

I think you vastly overestimate the power and authority of the PA. The PA under Arafat was neutered by corruption and Israeli force.

As for the economy: again with the generalizations, eh?

Yes i'm aware of the peace agreements that were signed, in fact your aware that a peace agreement has not been signed with palestine right. Yes there were declarations and accords none were signed or put into effect.

Which puts a lie to your statements that israel is the underdog.

[Army Guy]

GostHacked:

I am wondering why so many support Israel at face value.

I was going to ask you the same question,

And why does Israel always play the victim?

Question just who was it that attack whom first, whom decided that that thier was no room for the Jews in the area of Trans jordan.

If Israel did not get the support from the US as it does now. Israel would be GONE.

You put to much faith in the arabs armies, and you under estimate the will of the Israelis.

It would not exist. Make it fair and give the Palestinians what the Israelis have. Even out the fight so it is fair.

Like the Arabs did in 48,56,67, etc etc...yah lets make it fair, Why does the rest of the Arab countries support the palestinians and provide them with funding or military equipment. Because they don't give a crap that is why. And you over estimate the US support, something that could easily be matched by the oil rich muslim nations.

Hard to control the population when it is being scattered constantly. Hard to settle down in an area when your houses are blown up by rockets and bulldozers. Hard to control the displaced REALLY PISSED off population. Again someone comes to your home, takes part of it over, because all the neighbours said it was okay to take a room in your house, now that 'guest' has taken over most of your house and people wonder why you are pissed at them and want to take revenge. But in everyones eye, the Palestinians and the bad guy.

Bullshit, there are over 3.7 million palestinians, how many homes were destroyed, yes there were homes destroyed but not to the effect you are discribing. And it the Israelis were to stop entering PA lands just what is Israel to do again'st terrorist blowing up markets etc, what defensive measures do they take to protect thier citizens...

The media and journalists (like youi Army Guy) always seem to propr up Isreal blindly. This gives a biased view towards Isreal and people support it because we don't want anything to happen to the poor Jews

I'm not a journalist or do i have anything to do with the media, I'm in the military, and yes i'm biased, but not blindly as you suggest but thru experiance and research.

Israel has been taking the brunt of world opinon for some time now, perhaps you can explain what have the palestianians done for themselfs since 1967, what have they done for peace, nothing ....for them it's all or nothing...guess what should have thought about that in 48 or the rest of the wars they were involved in. Do you really think the would conceed if the shoe was on the other foot, lets just say they were sucessful in 48 or the other wars....do you think we would be have this post no becasue the Arabs are bent on the ethinic cleansing of all the jews, and you want me to shed a tear for that....They roled the dice and lost...it's time to make peace or leave.

[Black Dog]

And it the Israelis were to stop entering PA lands just what is Israel to do again'st terrorist blowing up markets etc, what defensive measures do they take to protect thier citizens...

Question: how is blowing up the homes of suicide bombers' families or launching incurrsions into the territories "defensive measures"? It's retaliation, plain and simple: nor does it seem to be working, given the continued insecurity of the Israeli state.

[KrustyKidd]

nor does it seem to be working, given the continued insecurity of the Israeli state.

Nor is it doing much to get a Palestinian state. So, who is doing better, Palestinians living in squalor with less and less to work with or Israelis who enjoy a western standard of living? I know where I would rather live so to me, seems the terrorism is not working very well.

[Black Dog]

Nor is it doing much to get a Palestinian state. So, who is doing better, Palestinians living in squalor with less and less to work with or Israelis who enjoy a western standard of living? I know where I would rather live so to me, seems the terrorism is not working very well.

And I suppose that has F.A. with the economic strangulation of the Palestinian "state", the long-standing Israeli practice of annexing the best land and a whole host of other policies that leaves the Palestinian economy completely dependant on Israel's? (of course, the fact that Israel itself is an economic basket case doesn't help your point).

[Army Guy]

BD:

Will Israel?

I hope so, what excuse will they use.

Putting aside the fact that large gatherings of Palestinians tend to attract more Israeli tanks than accolades, I think what you're displaying here is a kind of cultural transference: you're irked that the Palestinians aren't acting like you think they should act without any consideration of whether or not such actions are even feasible or indeed, warranted.

I'm sure it would make israelis alittle nervous, but it does not have to be near the boarder areas, And i'm sure that if the message was "the people of palestine want peace" it would be allowed to go on.

Is it cultural transference gatherings or peacefull marchs are happening or have happen all across the globe.

If conditions are as bad as some on this baord or other palestinians web sites have reported one would think that the palestinians would be willing to try anything to improver thier conditions. Are these actions fesiable why not, and if they are not warranted then i guess everything is fine in the camps and we should not be hearing any more grumblings on just how bad they got it.

So democracy only matters if "we" first approve of the options?

NO, but where does it say we have to deal with whom ever the vote in, why does Canada have to deal with a government that supports ,funds, terrorists.

Question: since attaining office, what has Hamas done that warrants the response its recieved?

Other than the fact of stating publicly "He dreams of a world map with NO Israel on it", failing to control thier boaders, failing to reign in the radical terrorists of which they have control over, failure of doing nothing in the regards to peace. The lack of action or the approval of terrorist action is enough to say that this is a government that we should not support.

Intersting you support the idea that citizens are responsible for the actions of the state: by such logic, suicide bombings are a viable option (especially against a state where most citizens are past, present of future member sof the armed forces). But I digress.

Suicide bombers are a viable option providing they attack legitimate targets.

It works both ways since they are all future terrorists. Why is it that the rest of the world,... ok most of the world the people can stand up to thier governments to effect change but not palestinians.

Yes I do. Israeli "retaliation" for terror attacks has and continues to be completely disproportinate

Of course that would have nothing to do with the frustration of past efforts not making a differance or having thier hands tied with the threat of being attack by the rest of the Arab armies, or world sanctions.

I think you vastly overestimate the power and authority of the PA. The PA under Arafat was neutered by corruption and Israeli force.

So what you are saying is that the people of palestine are not governed, and are free to do what ever they please, that there is no law or enforcement of laws available. And that we have complete and total disarray.

So now we have a government that really is only in name, it has no powers, no control, can you blame Israel from taking matters into thier own hands....

As for the economy: again with the generalizations, eh?

generalizations, Palestines biggest trading partner is Israel, why would they want to support a country that they are in conflict with.

Which puts a lie to your statements that israel is the underdog.

To make peace there has to be give and take on both sides. what has the palestinians done to effect peace.

Nothing...there hands are tied by the fact that the palestinians have a defense pact with the arab countries in the area, plus the fact that most of the free world would be force to take action if the Israelis forced them from the land...leaving them only one opition to deal with the powerless Hamas government, who wants something other than peace...Which begs the question why should we support a people who's primary goal is the ethinic cleansing of the jewish race in the region.

[lost&outofcontrol]

NO, but where does it say we have to deal with whom ever the vote in, why does Canada have to deal with a government that supports ,funds, terrorists.

Wake up, we've been supporting & funding terrorists ourselves. Its okay for us to pick and choose which one we support?

[Army Guy]

BD:

Question: how is blowing up the homes of suicide bombers' families or launching incurrsions into the territories "defensive measures"? It's retaliation, plain and simple: nor does it seem to be working, given the continued insecurity of the Israeli state.

One of the reasons these bombers have agreed to blow themselfs up is the fincial reward of having there homes paid off and payment made to thier families. Destroying thier homes, of thier famlies was done as a deterant. So it is a defensive measure ...which begs the question what exactly is Israel to do to prevent terrorist from entering Israel ? i mean really what can they do that would effectivily protect it's citizens...

[Army Guy]

lost&outofcontrol:

Wake up, we've been supporting & funding terrorists ourselves. Its okay for us to pick and choose which one we support?

Perhaps you can explain that one with a few sources. Which terrorist organization did we support openily knowing that our support or funding was being used for terrorist activities.

Again perhaps you can show me "where it states" Canada as a nation has to deal with any nation, state, or territory. or for that matter recoginize it at all.

Or are you just pissed off that Canada cut it's funding to the Hamas. An organization bent on the elimation of the state of Israel..or is that something we support now in Canada.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Perhaps you can explain that one with a few sources. Which terrorist organization did we support openly knowing that our support or funding was being used for terrorist activities.

Definition of State terrorism

link

state terrorism(ish)

Again perhaps you can show me "where it states" Canada as a nation has to deal with any nation, state, or territory. or for that matter recoginize it at all.

Why do we trade with countries like China, Israel, India, Pakistan, and the Philippines (etc..) when we reject funding/trading /recognizing the Palestinians on the basis that it's a "terrorist population". All these Countries are/have engaged in state terrorism against a part of their population just like Israel is doing. The reason is quite simple really, because we have nothing to gain (economically) from supporting the Palestinian but a whole lot to gain from China & Co.

Or are you just pissed off that Canada cut it's funding to the Hamas. An organization bent on the elimation of the state of Israel..or is that something we support now in Canada.

Not exactly, I'm pissed off because we are hypocrites.

[GostHacked]

Not exactly, I'm pissed off because we are hypocrites.

Yes exactly.

Here is my solution. Cut the who land that both groups occupy in half, from east to west. Palestine takes half and Isreal takes half. I would support that. But how many of you would suport this plan?

I would say let the UN do it, but as we know they have been utterly USELESS to resolve the Palestinian/Isreali conflict to this date. And Israel just keeps getting BIGGER. Nothing the UN did , in the end, was worth it, for the US would veto any resolution against Israel. But no problems pointing the finger at the Palestines when things go wrong.

Remember the incusrion from Israel to the Palestinian jail where they brought tanks in and such? Those prisoners served their term and were to be released. But Israel did not like that, thinkin these guys are going to attack again. so LET'S ROLL our tanks in there and capture them anyways and throw them in an Israeli jail for good. I mean Israel could have used diplomatic channels to solve that issue, but they went it alone and stormed in anyways. This is outright an act of aggression/war.

[Black Dog]

I'm sure it would make israelis alittle nervous, but it does not have to be near the boarder areas, And i'm sure that if the message was "the people of palestine want peace" it would be allowed to go on.

Is it cultural transference gatherings or peacefull marchs are happening or have happen all across the globe.

If conditions are as bad as some on this baord or other palestinians web sites have reported one would think that the palestinians would be willing to try anything to improver thier conditions. Are these actions fesiable why not, and if they are not warranted then i guess everything is fine in the camps and we should not be hearing any more grumblings on just how bad they got it.

What I mean by transference is this: you're viewing Hamas through a western lens and expecting the Palestinian people do to the same. Has it occurred to you that maybe Hamas isn't viewed by the people who electe dthem as he terrorist bogeyman we've been told they are? No matter how badly Paeletinains may want peace, there's still a measure of respect for groups like Hamas who are seen as standing up to the oppressors.

NO, but where does it say we have to deal with whom ever the vote in, why does Canada have to deal with a government that supports ,funds, terrorists.

I've made the argument elsewhere that we deal with terrorist supporting regimes and vile dictatorships all the time on the theory that engagement will moderate their extermist views or oppressive tacitcs. Why is what's good for, say, China, not good enough for Hamas?

Other than the fact of stating publicly "He dreams of a world map with NO Israel on it", failing to control thier boaders, failing to reign in the radical terrorists of which they have control over, failure of doing nothing in the regards to peace. The lack of action or the approval of terrorist action is enough to say that this is a government that we should not support.

Who's "he"? In what context were these comments made? In any case, is isolating Hamas, thus forcing them to turn to regimes like Iran'sfor more aid and support really the best way to deal with them.

Of course that would have nothing to do with the frustration of past efforts not making a differance or having thier hands tied with the threat of being attack by the rest of the Arab armies, or world sanctions.

You talk of Arab armies or international outrage as if they were relaistic consequenses. They are not. So long as Israel holds military supremacy (in terms of material andquality if not sheer numbers), nuclear hegemony and theh backing (militaryily and diplomatically) of the U.S., that's not gonna happen.

So what you are saying is that the people of palestine are not governed, and are free to do what ever they please, that there is no law or enforcement of laws available. And that we have complete and total disarray.

So now we have a government that really is only in name, it has no powers, no control, can you blame Israel from taking matters into thier own hands....

No there's a modicum of law and order (often enforced by militant groups at he local level) but the "national" authority has little real power.

generalizations, Palestines biggest trading partner is Israel, why would they want to support a country that they are in conflict with.

Some believe the Paletinian reliance on Israel is a deliberate policy on Israel's part:

Israel's Economic War in Context

From 1967 to 1993 Israel's military occupation fundamentally restructured the economies of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip through a range of measures that damaged all spheres of Palestinian development: agriculture, industry, trade, income and employment, and general living standards. Israel's economic policy was based on explicit rejection of Palestinian sovereignty, in violation of inter- national law and the right to self-determination. This entailed the suppression of all forms of development and organization in Palestine that might support indigenous political aspirations.

....

As a result, the Palestinian economy was prevented from developing the capacity to sustain local livelihoods. Instead wage earners and their families were made dependent, quite literally, on jobs in the Israeli economy. As noted by an Israeli economist, the policy of sustaining marginal living standards while undermining indigenous economic capacity served the double purpose of pacifying the Palestinian population while deepening structural dependence on Israel:

While a better living standard was meant to diminish nationalist aspirations and contain violence and popular resentment through a policy of economic appeasement, the weakening of the economic base was meant to create ties of dependence that would protect Israel's economic interests by eliminating any threat of competition with, or cost to, the Israeli economy and give Israel complete control over the territories' productive resources and their economic growth potential.

To make peace there has to be give and take on both sides. what has the palestinians done to effect peace.

Nothing...there hands are tied by the fact that the palestinians have a defense pact with the arab countries in the area, plus the fact that most of the free world would be force to take action if the Israelis forced them from the land...leaving them only one opition to deal with the powerless Hamas government, who wants something other than peace...Which begs the question why should we support a people who's primary goal is the ethinic cleansing of the jewish race in the region.

Can you show me any evidence of this alleged defense pact between teh PA and Israel's Arab neighbours? Again, there's no way anyone would lift a finger if Israel tried to drive out the Palestinians. Anyway, i see we're back to the old "Palestinians want to drive Israel into teh see", a canard which is so tired that its becoem a cliche.

[KrustyKidd]

And I suppose that has F.A. with the economic strangulation of the Palestinian "state", the long-standing Israeli practice of annexing the best land and a whole host of other policies that leaves the Palestinian economy completely dependant on Israel's? (of course, the fact that Israel itself is an economic basket case doesn't help your point).

I take that answer to mean that you would rather live in Palestinian territory then?

[Army Guy]

lost&outofcontrol:

Your definition of State terrorism is nice but fails to mention Canada in it's list of countries. And does not support your argument.

Your second link is all about Israel and it's claims would not stand up in any court of law would they. and according to your first link that it would not be state terrorism unless sanctioned by the state, it would be murder if it could be proven if an Israelis soldier had done it.

Your third link your really pulling at straws here. Canada planning military action in Haiti, with what the Boy Scouts, Our government has drawn up plans for everything from Quebecs separation to nuclear war, Plans are one thing carring them out is another.

So where is a source stating that Canada has supported openily a terrorist organization,or have we supported openily knowing full well that our support or funding was being used for terrorist activities.

Why do we trade with countries like China, Israel, India, Pakistan, and the Philippines (etc..)

Why do we trade with the countries we do ? I agree with you. and i've brought this up before..However like you said we in the west chase the dollar and greed will always trump values or morals.

[Black Dog]

I take that answer to mean that you would rather live in Palestinian territory then?

Besides just being a rhetorical "ha ha gotcha" does your b.s dichotomy have a point? Yeah: didn't think so.

[Army Guy]

BD:

What I mean by transference is this: you're viewing Hamas through a western lens and expecting the Palestinian people do to the same. Has it occurred to you that maybe Hamas isn't viewed by the people who electe dthem as he terrorist bogeyman we've been told they are? No matter how badly Paeletinains may want peace, there's still a measure of respect for groups like Hamas who are seen as standing up to the oppressors.

Are we all just looking thru a western lens, Hamas has made it clear on occasions that they want the destruction of the state of israel. How can the people draw the line between peace and the destruction of Israel. Even if the people see them as hero's how could they not see that the Palestine does not have anything be it funding or equipment to see the destruction of israel therefore it is a impossable goal, and they would be in for much of the same things they have today "nothing". And yet they voted for them...

I've made the argument elsewhere that we deal with terrorist supporting regimes and vile dictatorships all the time on the theory that engagement will moderate their extermist views or oppressive tacitcs. Why is what's good for, say, China, not good enough for Hamas?

I agree with you, cut them all off, but can we afford to do so, or will those that are profitting from them do so.

Who's "he"? In what context were these comments made? In any case, is isolating Hamas, thus forcing them to turn to regimes like Iran'sfor more aid and support really the best way to deal with them.

Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land."

Are you saying that the situation could get worse. And i think it's time for thier Muslim brothers to start footing the bill for thier comrads. let them but the presure on them to sort things out.

You talk of Arab armies or international outrage as if they were relaistic consequenses. They are not.

Thats what the serbs thought in Kosvo, ethinic cleansing is a serious crime...Even the US would be forced to pull it's support if the Israelis moved in and ejected the Palestinian people. As for the Arab armies they have a defensive pact with Palestine...both reasons would be enough for them to think twice about using militatry force to evict the Palestinian people.

So long as Israel holds military supremacy (in terms of material andquality if not sheer numbers),

I keep telling you that Israel does not have military supremacy in the area the arabs do..As for quality the Egyptian army has been equiped by the US, with M-1 Abrams(in fact the build them in Egypt)(same ones that the US military operate) Apache attack helos, F-16 fighters it's all the same stuff that the US uses and the Israelis use, also Jordan is also being equiped by the US with F-16's and other military equipment.

Syria is equiped by Russia and China but even thier equipment is nothing to laugh at...

As for sheer numbers the Arabs outnumber the Israelis a good 5 to one on most things..

Some believe the Paletinian reliance on Israel is a deliberate policy on Israel's part:

it was'nt the same guys who said Iraq had WMD is it...

Can you show me any evidence of this alleged defense pact between teh PA and Israel's Arab neighbours?

Yes in the Arab league defense aggreement.

i see we're back to the old "Palestinians want to drive Israel into teh see", a canard which is so tired that its becoem a cliche.

Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land."

Hard not to keep bringing it up but what do you read from the above quote. I believe he's part of the HAmas government is he not ....or are we to dismiss this...

[Black Dog]

Are we all just looking thru a western lens, Hamas has made it clear on occasions that they want the destruction of the state of israel. How can the people draw the line between peace and the destruction of Israel. Even if the people see them as hero's how could they not see that the Palestine does not have anything be it funding or equipment to see the destruction of israel therefore it is a impossable goal, and they would be in for much of the same things they have today "nothing". And yet they voted for them...

Obviously, the Palestinians don't see Hamas as the "destroy Israel" guys. Are you aware that, despite Hamas's reputation here asa terror group, they do a lot of local-level work, building schools, clinics etc.? It's kind of odd to expect the to have the same views as you and then get upset when they don't.

Thats what the serbs thought in Kosvo, ethinic cleansing is a serious crime...Even the US would be forced to pull it's support if the Israelis moved in and ejected the Palestinian people. As for the Arab armies they have a defensive pact with Palestine...both reasons would be enough for them to think twice about using militatry force to evict the Palestinian people.

Forced? By who? And the defensive pact you keep going on about? The palestinian National Authority is not a part of it. But that's not really relevant Israel won't mount a full scale operation to clear out the Paelstinians: they'll just keep forcing them into smaller and smaller parcels of land.

I keep telling you that Israel does not have military supremacy in the area the arabs do..As for quality the Egyptian army has been equiped by the US, with M-1 Abrams(in fact the build them in Egypt)(same ones that the US military operate) Apache attack helos, F-16 fighters it's all the same stuff that the US uses and the Israelis use, also Jordan is also being equiped by the US with F-16's and other military equipment.

Syria is equiped by Russia and China but even thier equipment is nothing to laugh at...

As for sheer numbers the Arabs outnumber the Israelis a good 5 to one on most things..

No they don't. First jordan and Egypt have treaties with israel. Both are also supplied by he U.S. and wouldn't lift a finger against their fellow U.S. client Israel lest they lose their patron's good will. That leaves Syria and teh prospect of Damasucus becoming a radioactive waste keeps them in line.

Yes in the Arab league defense aggreement.

Which, signed in 1950, predates the P.A. (Note how no one rushed to honour the treaty when iraq wa sinvaded). If you have a link or something...?

Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land."

Hard not to keep bringing it up but what do you read from the above quote. I believe he's part of the HAmas government is he not ....or are we to dismiss this...

Wwell first he's one guy and not representative of the views of all Palestinians or Arabs. Second, we know the Palestinians don't have the capacity to wipe Israel off the map, so why is it even a concern? Ever heard of an empty threat?

[Argus]

Not exactly, I'm pissed off because we are hypocrites.

Yes exactly.

Here is my solution. Cut the who land that both groups occupy in half, from east to west. Palestine takes half and Isreal takes half. I would support that. But how many of you would suport this plan?

Great idea! Except that the Palestinians living in the Jewish half would run off into refugee camps and then demand the land back, and spawn terrorists, and be supported by the rest of the Muslim world.

Which, uh, is what happened the last time someone had that idea. You ARE aware, right, that the UN did this very thing? Except the Arabs invaded, the Jews beat their asses, Egypt annexed part of the Palestinian land, and Jordan annexed another big chunk, and then there was another round of Arab attacks which lost more ground.