Isreal and Palestine

[KrustyKidd]

To say that they will evacuate within 4 years seems to follow the path of permanantly establishing borders by 2010. Cannot evacuate land that you now consider part of your country.

That's possible. So, bomb some more and make abolutely sure they'll take even more and feell justified about it to boot. Then, keep on doing it and they'll set up a 'security zone' beyond the wall.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Krusty Kid,

Israel wants to expand even further than simply denying Palestine 'statehood'. They are not going to grant land to 'Palestine' for nothing. Therefore, terrorism is the only thing that will actually work for Palestinians, because Israel might be willing to trade peace for land. As you say,

Settlers wield a political pull and form a voting block that can only be countered by security concerns being addressed.

terrorism works.

However, if Israel isn't going to budge, and continues to pursue policies such as collective punishment, etc., and is an equal cause of the problem, why should they receive any outside (western) support? They have nothing but contempt for the US, and for the 'goyim', so why do we continue to help them, if 'might makes right"? Shouldn't we let them fight it out? The winner was bound to be right.

[KrustyKidd]

Israel wants to expand even further than simply denying Palestine 'statehood'. They are not going to grant land to 'Palestine' for nothing. Therefore, terrorism is the only thing that will actually work for Palestinians, because Israel might be willing to trade peace for land

When terrorism stops, the hard liners take more land. When terrorism starts, they offer land as a concession. Then when terrorsim stops, the hard liners take more land ............. therefore, terrorism works. Got it.

Now this whole thing might have a shred of intellectual equity but for the fact that Palestinians don't see it as strategicly as you. They simply want to erradicate Israelis from the whole region, not get a foot of land back. They want it all.

However, if Israel isn't going to budge, and continues to pursue policies such as collective punishment, etc., and is an equal cause of the problem, why should they receive any outside (western) support?

Assuming they are an equal cause I disagree, they're not bigoted suicidal hillbillys intent on killing everybody that isn't them. And, in an area where there is so much of that, it is in the interest of the West to promote a nation that has a shred of sanity.

They have nothing but contempt for the US, and for the 'goyim', so why do we continue to help them, if 'might makes right"? Shouldn't we let them fight it out? The winner was bound to be right.

Hey, I'd be all for it but I don't want to see millions of Arabs get killed. I like to think that somehow, sanity wil prevail and the Palestinians will stop the tantrums and face the reality that they have to live with the world the way it is rhater than the way they wish it was.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Krusty Kid,

they're not bigoted suicidal hillbillys intent on killing everybody that isn't them.

Um, Muslims and/or Palestinians aren't actually like that. Several countries in the region have populations of Christians, Jews, etc. and they aren't being killed off because of who they are. The biggest concern is the Jewish state and it's actions, not the Jews themselves.

from:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sy.html

Syria:

Religions:

Sunni Muslim 74%, Alawite, Druze, and other Muslim sects 16%, Christian (various sects) 10%, Jewish (tiny communities in Damascus, Al Qamishli, and Aleppo)

Jordan:

Religions:

Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 2% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)

Lebanon:

Religions:

Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%

note: 17 religious sects recognized

From the FAQ section on Palestine,

Why is Palestine not listed in The World Factbook?

The areas that could potentially form a future Palestinian state -- the West Bank and Gaza Strip -- do appear in the Factbook. These areas are presently Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian 1995 Interim Agreement; their permanent status is to be determined through further negotiation.

Why are the Golan Heights not shown as part of Israel or Northern Cyprus with Turkey?

Territorial occupations/annexations not recognized by the United States Government are not shown on US Government maps.

Emphasis added by me

[KrustyKidd]

Um, Muslims and/or Palestinians aren't actually like that.

(in response to Palestinians being suicidal hillbillys)

Very Tolerent

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day.

Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.

Article 28: "The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions ..."

There is a gentler side however, once they own the entire show, the Religions can live in peace under the banner of Islam.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

[mcqueen625]

Agreed. I wish there was a way to enforce that peace, but in a terrorism/guerilla vs. overwelming military might type of war, peacekeeping can only have limited effects. Israel would have to disarm and Hamas would have to go. Neither is going to happen.

It's trouble, and probably always will be for my life time. Holy wars are definitely the scariest types, as the victor is the one that either kills all others, or converts them to their beliefs. I can't see either happening soon.

Bottom line Hamas' ultimate goal is the total elimination of the Israel, period. Iran's has also come out and stated that this is also their goal. In an outburst by Moussaoui during the death penalty phase of his trial he sated that Muslims have been at war with Christians and Jews for centuries, and Islam requires Muslims to the world's superpower. He read aloud passages from the Koran to support his assertions, citing one that requires non-Muslim nations to pay tribute to Muslim countries. His advise to those who will make the decision on wether he will be executed or not was to keep him alive to trade if American troops are captured.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Krusty Kid,

I stand somewhat corrected, what I should have said was, "Not all Palestinians are suicidal hillbillies". Even if the majority were, they would have already wiped out the Israelis.

From your link, it is the HAMAS with this 'covenant', not all of Islam, and bear in mind that Israel itself created HAMAS to try to reduce the influence of the PLO under Arafat and 'split the vote'.

[KrustyKidd]

bear in mind that Israel itself created HAMAS to try to reduce the influence of the PLO under Arafat and 'split the vote'.

And bear in mind that thousands of years ago this and that and that and this. The situation is what is here on the ground now. Ten million people all in one spot and four of them living under a government that wishes to destroy the other six and then move in. No secondary possibility, no compromise, just death and hatred. It's amusing in a sort of sad way to watch appoligists try to shift blame around when in reality, there is only one solution - for them to live together without blaming one another. Citing who is at fault, who is right and wrong only ignores the solution - to live together with compromise. And, not even recognizing the existence of one of them by the other is not very productive to this end. As is calling for their deaths and or exile.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Krusty Kid,

And, not even recognizing the existence of one of them by the other is not very productive to this end. As is calling for their deaths and or exile.

They are both doing the exact same thing, albeit with different methods, but both believe in killing.

Citing who is at fault, who is right and wrong only ignores the solution - to live together with compromise.

Here, your words ring true. What is a possible solution that both will be forced to accept? UN soldiers enforcing a partition? One large, non-denominational state?

[KrustyKidd]

They are both doing the exact same thing, albeit with different methods, but both believe in killing.

No, far different. One will never allow the other to exist in any form if they have their way while the other recognizes the fact they have a right to live there. A very very big difference that seems to escape most of the anti Israel crowd.

Here, your words ring true. What is a possible solution that both will be forced to accept? UN soldiers enforcing a partition? One large, non-denominational state?

No idea but can tell you one sure thing, as long as the official line of Plaestinians is to make the country for them only, nothing is going to change. Hence, they are the biggest roadblock.

[lost&outofcontrol]

As soon as Jew and Muslim recognize their opposed religions as merely different stages in the development of the human spirit, then they will no longer be in religious opposition but only in critical, scientific, human opposition.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear lost&outofcontrol,

As soon as Jew and Muslim recognize their opposed religions as merely different stages in the development of the human spirit, then they will no longer be in religious opposition but only in critical, scientific, human opposition.

Surely you jest. They both claim to be acting upon the literal word of God. The Jews are a little more aware that they are interpreting scripture for everyday use, but both have their dogmas written in stone.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Dear lost&outofcontrol,

Surely you jest. They both claim to be acting upon the literal word of God. The Jews are a little more aware that they are interpreting scripture for everyday use, but both have their dogmas written in stone.

The Palestinians seek emancipation, but what emancipation do they seek? No one in Israel (or anywhere in the world for that matter) is emancipated. Israelis are not free. They must emancipate themselves from their religious slavery before the Palestinians can do the same. All religious privileges must be abolished. The Palestinian finds himself in religious opposition to the state which recognizes Judaism as its foundation but by asking for emancipation, they invariably acknowledge this slavery or subordination of citizenry to religion. Religious opposition can be done away by making it impossible through the abolition of religion.

[Black Dog]

So, seems the ball is in the Palestinians court. They don't terrorize and the government has no reason to change. Two parties dedicated to pulling out of the West bank on top and the two against on the bottom. Only terrorism can change that, hence, only Palestinians can screw it up.

Question: why is Israel's policies WRT the West Bank contingent upon the Palestinians' "good behaviour"? Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, why not do the same to the West Bank?

[Army Guy]

BD:

Question: why is Israel's policies WRT the West Bank contingent upon the Palestinians' "good behaviour"? Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, why not do the same to the West Bank?

Giving the palestians everything will solve nothing. The arabs in the region are not going to be happy until Israel ceases to exist. Which begs the question why give them anything, if thier only focus is elimination of the state of Israel. It's easy for some to blame Israel for all thier problems, but it's hard to feel sorry for a people who can't do anything for themselfs.

My Webpage

[Black Dog]

Giving the palestians everything will solve nothing

What do you mean by "everything"? Furthermore: where has such a course of action been advocated.

The arabs in the region are not going to be happy until Israel ceases to exist.

Does that include the millions of Israeli Arabs who, though deprived of many of the rights of their fellow citizens, by and large live in peace? The millions of Palestinians who don't take part in terrorist activity and who support a peaceful resolution to the conflict? Indeed, most polls of the Palestinian population show a high level of support for political negotiations with Israel, so your statement above is as invalid as saying "the Israelis aren't going to be happy until they control the whole region" based on the actions of a small, radical bloc of the population.

Which begs the question why give them anything, if thier only focus is elimination of the state of Israel.

You're basing your conclusion on a (faulty) premise of your own creation: that, my friend, is begging the question.

[Army Guy]

BD:

What do you mean by "everything"? Furthermore: where has such a course of action been advocated.

Everything meaning the Gaza and the west bank. If you are suggesting that the Hamas will be satisified with thier current demands of israel pulling out of all of Gaza or the west bank your wrong.

( taken from the link i provided)

No Hamas leader has made a move to renounce or even revise the poisonous Hamas charter, which calls for the obliteration of Israel and vows to "raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." To the contrary, Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land." Some moderation.

Does that include the millions of Israeli Arabs who, though deprived of many of the rights of their fellow citizens, by and large live in peace?

Perhaps it doers include a few of them, but not all. Just what rights are they deprived of ?

The millions of Palestinians who don't take part in terrorist activity and who support a peaceful resolution to the conflict?

There may be a few that actually support the peace process, but the majority have spoken thru thier votes for the Hamas or thier actions..

"the Israelis aren't going to be happy until they control the whole region" based on the actions of a small, radical bloc of the population.

the Israelis are tried of being blown up, and shoved around by the Arabs in the region, so if you are suggesting that there will be no lasting peace until the palestians are driven from the land your right...

And it's not a small, radical bloc of the population. unless the hamas rigged the election somehow...and somehow that will be israel's fault as well...

You're basing your conclusion on a (faulty) premise of your own creation: that, my friend, is begging the question.

Yes and i created that web site i provided as well, in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail. Hamas party officals have stated publically thier goals in regards to Israel. No where did they mention about taking long hot showers together, shaking hands thru the fence, or dating each others sisters....

[lost&outofcontrol]

Perhaps it doers include a few of them, but not all. Just what rights are they deprived of ?

There may be a few that actually support the peace process, but the majority have spoken thru thier votes for the Hamas or thier actions..

You claim to be a writer for the Globe and Mail, that is frightening. Thank Buddha we have reporters like you who research their claims before spouting crap like that.

And I quote:

...two-thirds of Palestinians believe Hamas should change its policy of rejecting Israel’s right to exist. Most also support a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Post-election polls indicate that Hamas’ victory is due largely to Palestinians’ desire to end corruption in government rather than support for the organization’s political platform.

the Israelis are tried of being blown up, and shoved around by the Arabs in the region, so if you are suggesting that there will be no lasting peace until the palestians are driven from the land your right...

And it's not a small, radical bloc of the population. unless the hamas rigged the election somehow...and somehow that will be israel's fault as well...

I posted this link in the Who will Do Iran? thread but you conveniently ignored it. Both sides are guilty of terrorism. The majority of the population supports peace. Just like in Christianity you have extreme wings filled with nutcases, the same applies to Islam. A minority on both sides controls the game for its own political advantage.

Yes and i created that web site i provided as well, in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail. Hamas party officals have stated publically thier goals in regards to Israel. No where did they mention about taking long hot showers together, shaking hands thru the fence, or dating each others sisters....

I guess they have "spell checkers" on staff at the Globe and Mail. Stop trying to frame the entire region as a bunch of crazed lunatics that want the destruction of Israel. Glad to see the media is still independent.

[Black Dog]

Everything meaning the Gaza and the west bank. If you are suggesting that the Hamas will be satisified with thier current demands of israel pulling out of all of Gaza or the west bank your wrong.

I maintain that a immediate halt to new settlement in the West Bank is the first step. I'm glad to see Kudima moving in that direction.

There may be a few that actually support the peace process, but the majority have spoken thru thier votes for the Hamas or thier actions..

When asked why they voted for Hamas, the highest ratio of Palestinians (43%) of those who voted for Hamas said they did so with the hope to end the corruption while (10.7%) said they did so with the hope to see better living conditions. A ratio of (18.8%) said they did so for religious factors while only (11.8%) said they did so because of Hamas political program. Within the same lines, when Palestinians in general were asked why most people voted for Hamas, the highest ratio (44%) said most people voted for Hamas with the hope to end corruption while (18.9%) said people hope to see better living conditions and a

ratio of (13.3%) said people voted for Hamas for religious factors.

Link

the Israelis are tried of being blown up, and shoved around by the Arabs in the region, so if you are suggesting that there will be no lasting peace until the palestians are driven from the land your right...

No I'm sugesting there will be no peace as long as small group of religious radicals drives Israel's agenda.

And it's not a small, radical bloc of the population. unless the hamas rigged the election somehow...and somehow that will be israel's fault as well...

I'm talking about Israel's population and the radical Zionist settlers.

Yes and i created that web site i provided as well, in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail. Hamas party officals have stated publically thier goals in regards to Israel. No where did they mention about taking long hot showers together, shaking hands thru the fence, or dating each others sisters....

But you didn't specify "Hamas party officials". You said: "The arabs in the region are not going to be happy until Israel ceases to exist.", which I take to mean all the Arabs in the region. In other words, you're making broad generalizations about an entire population based on the actions/words of a few. That's sloppy thinking.

As an aside, it's especially frustrating to see this kind of impercision of language crop up with such regularity during the discussion of the Palestine/Israel question when I know full well that a similar approach taken by the opposite side (eg, equating the goals of the settlement bloc with all Israelis and/or Jews) would inevitably lead to cries of racism and anti-semetism. If one is a racist construct then so is the other.

[Army Guy]

lost&outofcontrol:

You claim to be a writer for the Globe and Mail, that is frightening. Thank Buddha we have reporters like you who research their claims before spouting crap like that.

And I quote:

Actually i was being sarcastic, in my claim to be a reporter. if you had read the whole post it might have made sense. And i did read your research. But the facts are stating something different.

I posted this link in the Who will Do Iran? thread but you conveniently ignored it. Both sides are guilty of terrorism. The majority of the population supports peace. Just like in Christianity you have extreme wings filled with nutcases, the same applies to Islam. A minority on both sides controls the game for its own political advantage.

I read your thread, and i think whom ever did the poll screwed it up. The palestinians support peace thru the elimination of Israel. They support peace, thru exploding themselfs in large crowds, they support peace thru riots, thru lack of action in tracking down terrorists, thru lack of law and order, by throwing rocks at soldiers...sounds like they support peace to me...tell me if you had watched your home dozed by israel would you support peace? This conflict has gone on far to long for the majority of people to live side by side and there not be conflict.

If the majority of palestinians wanted peace they would police themselfs to put an end to this TIT for Tat conflict...

I guess they have "spell checkers" on staff at the Globe and Mail.

Must not have been that bad as you got the drift on my post.

Stop trying to frame the entire region as a bunch of crazed lunatics that want the destruction of Israel. Glad to see the media is still independent.

They don't need me for that ,they've done it all by themselfs. And have you read the link i provided you see that a recent political member of Hamas" if there is such a thing" had been quoted as saying as much. Have you been to the Gaza strip or west bank, or are you basing your opinon on just what you read....

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

[Black Dog]

I read your thread, and i think whom ever did the poll screwed it up. The palestinians support peace thru the elimination of Israel. They support peace, thru exploding themselfs in large crowds, they support peace thru riots, thru lack of action in tracking down terrorists, thru lack of law and order, by throwing rocks at soldiers...sounds like they support peace to me...tell me if you had watched your home dozed by israel would you support peace? This conflict has gone on far to long for the majority of people to live side by side and there not be conflict.

If the majority of palestinians wanted peace they would police themselfs to put an end to this TIT for Tat conflict...

Your psychic powers are truly astounding. Or perhaps you're just talking out yer arse? As I stated before, poll after poll shows a high level of majority support for negotiations and the peace process. As one pollster noted back in January of this year: "Palestinian willingness to compromise is greater than it has been at any time since the start of the peace process." Also: what makes you think the average Mohammed has any power to influence Hamas, or Islamic Jihad or any other militant group, let alone the direction of the whole state? I suspect the opposite is true: they are powerless and it is that feeling of powerlessness in the face of domestic corruption and Israeli aggression that feeds the militants.

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

Zuhayr Muhsin (sometimes spelled Zahir Muhsein) was the Secretary General of the Syrian Ba'athist group Sa`iqa established by the Syrian government in opposition to Arafat's Fatah. His membership of the PLO was due to pressure from Syria even though his pan-Arab position (i.e. the Syrian position) put him at constant conflict with the mainstream Palestinian nationalists. Muhsin was unpopular with the PLO; he was accepted mainly because the PLO relied heavily on Syria's support. In other words: he was a Syrian puppet and his statement reflects the pan Arab philosophy that was in vogue at the time, though it was and is completely at odds with the PLO charter and reflected what was an extreme minority opinion within the PLO and in Palestinian society.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Actually i was being sarcastic, in my claim to be a reporter. if you had read the whole post it might have made sense.

You said

in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail.

I didn't detect any hint of sarcasm in this but I guess my sarcastometer is a bit off today. Sorry

I read your thread, and i think whom ever did the poll screwed it up. The palestinians support peace thru the elimination of Israel. They support peace, thru exploding themselfs in large crowds, they support peace thru riots, thru lack of action in tracking down terrorists, thru lack of law and order, by throwing rocks at soldiers...sounds like they support peace to me...tell me if you had watched your home dozed by israel would you support peace? This conflict has gone on far to long for the majority of people to live side by side and there not be conflict.

If the majority of palestinians wanted peace they would police themselfs to put an end to this TIT for Tat conflict...

So the I guess this poll and this poll and this one and this one (thanx Black Dog) are all wrong.

I guess they have "spell checkers" on staff at the Globe and Mail.

Must not have been that bad as you got the drift on my post.

Sorry that was wrong on my part.

They don't need me for that ,they've done it all by themselfs. And have you read the link i provided you see that a recent political member of Hamas" if there is such a thing" had been quoted as saying as much. Have you been to the Gaza strip or west bank, or are you basing your opinon on just what you read....

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Yes, lets all quote 30 year old articles. Wasn't Zahir Muhsein a Syrian puppet?**edit* damn Black Dog beat me to it.

[Army Guy]

BD:

I maintain that a immediate halt to new settlement in the West Bank is the first step. I'm glad to see Kudima moving in that direction

I see it as the Israelis doing all the giving and the Hamas giving nothing. I also see it as when the Palestinians get everything they claim rights to there still will be conflict in the area , as they will not be satisified until they get it all.

As for them voting for the Hamas to end the corruption, they put all thier hopes and dreams into a Terrorist organization who's sole purpose is to continue the fight in the elemination of Israel. That to me sends a clear message they are more concerned with the corruption than peace...and does nothing to support the claim that the majority want peace.

No I'm sugesting there will be no peace as long as small group of religious radicals drives Israel's agenda

My piont is that on both sides it is not a minority but the majority that drives both sides agenda's...

But you didn't specify "Hamas party officials". You said: "The arabs in the region are not going to be happy until Israel ceases to exist.", which I take to mean all the Arabs in the region. In other words, you're making broad generalizations about an entire population based on the actions/words of a few. That's sloppy thinking.

That is what the link was for, and yes i do believe that most arabs in the region would rejoice if israel meet it's end....As for sloppy thinking , no more than someone stating that the majority of palestinians wanting peace with Israel. Because thier actions do not prove that, we do not see the palestinians making an effort to curb terrorism, police thier side of the borders, control thier people, nor changing thier minds thru thier media that peace is thier prime objective....because it is not, action speaks louder than words...

As an aside, it's especially frustrating to see this kind of impercision of language crop up with such regularity during the discussion of the Palestine/Israel question when I know full well that a similar approach taken by the opposite side (eg, equating the goals of the settlement bloc with all Israelis and/or Jews) would inevitably lead to cries of racism and anti-semetism. If one is a racist construct then so is the other.

I do believe i've posted before that the Israelis are no angels and have taken part in terrorist activities. What i find fustrating about this whole topic is everyone loves the under dog when in this case the underdog brought alot of thier problems on thier selfs.

And while thier is no mention of just how they ended up in their current postion, and whom else share in that blame such as the other Muslim countries in that region. and just what have they done for there brothers in arms...The entire world does not care about this situation nor do they care about finding a solution...nor will they let Isreal solve it militarily so it will continue to fester until it explodes.

[GostHacked]

This can really shut the doors for dialogue,

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...60419?hub=World

So as per the TIT for TAT in the last couple weeks.

A suicide attack on Israel,

Rocket attacks for almost a week straight.

Another suicide bomber.

Here is a good list of Israeli Casualties since Sept 2000

And here is a list of UN resolution against Israel I would assume that the majority of them have been vetoed by the U.S.

Dudes, we could go on, the path seems clear in their intent. Either side won't stop till the other is dead.

[Army Guy]

You're basing your conclusion on a (faulty) premise of your own creation: that, my friend, is begging the question.

To which i replied sacastically (refering to the link i provided):

Yes and i created that web site i provided as well, in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail. Hamas party officals have stated publically thier goals in regards to Israel. No where did they mention about taking long hot showers together, shaking hands thru the fence, or dating each others sisters....

So the I guess this poll and this poll and this one and this one (thanx Black Dog) are all wrong.

It means they speak of peace but thier actions show other wise. And how can you take any of those polls seriouily when the Hamas government makes statements like the ones below. Don't try and blow smoke up my arse when this government was voted in by the Palestinian people, and don't tell me they did not know of thier agenda before they voted....If they truily wanted peace they would have voted for peace....

Interior Minister Saeed Seyam, chosen by Hamas to lead the security services, has refused to order the arrest of terrorists who attack Israel. Making it crystal clear, he said last month that "the day will never come when any Palestinian would be arrested because of his political affiliation or because of resisting the occupation."

No Hamas leader has made a move to renounce or even revise the poisonous Hamas charter, which calls for the obliteration of Israel and vows to "raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." To the contrary, Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land." Some moderation

Yes, lets all quote 30 year old articles. Wasn't Zahir Muhsein a Syrian puppet?**edit* damn Black Dog beat me to it.

How about the quote above it was taken from the globe and mail Apr 19 th, do they sound like the ramblings of a government or people that want peace, Like i said before actions talk louder than words...and if the people are not doing anything about Hamas policy then they must agree with it..

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