Abortion, Choice, Responsibility

[Drea]

Women are both blessed and cursed with their ability to give birth.

Yes it's an absolute unbelievable feeling to carry a baby. It's an absolute unbelievable feeling to give birth to a tiny human being. It's utterly amazing -- makes me very very glad to be a woman.

Although I was never planning on having children -- I am sooo glad that I did.

If men could experience this wonder -- I think our world would be a much different (kinder) place.

There is nothing like the love between a mother and child.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Women are both blessed and cursed with their ability to give birth.

Yes it's an absolute unbelievable feeling to carry a baby. It's an absolute unbelievable feeling to give birth to a tiny human being. It's utterly amazing -- makes me very very glad to be a woman.

Although I was never planning on having children -- I am sooo glad that I did.

If men could experience this wonder -- I think our world would be a much different (kinder) place.

There is nothing like the love between a mother and child.

No offense - I'm sure it's great. But I'll go without the monthly cycles, breast feeding, weight gain etc. and stick to my cigars in the waiting room

[Riverwind]

Had the couple had agreed in the beginning that she would stay home and her "career" would entail being a wife and mother?

Exactly, every relationship is individual which is why there should never be any rules that are applied without taking into account the unique circumstances of each relationship. In the case I talked about there was always an understanding that the mother would go to back to work. The problem is she alone sets criteria regarding what 'acceptable' work is and after many years of excuses it is clear she has no intention to going back to work even if she says otherwise. The father is screwed - he is stuck supporting her even if he gets a divorce because of the 'sacrifices' she make to take care of the family.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Women are both blessed and cursed with their ability to give birth.

Yes it's an absolute unbelievable feeling to carry a baby. It's an absolute unbelievable feeling to give birth to a tiny human being. It's utterly amazing -- makes me very very glad to be a woman.

Although I was never planning on having children -- I am sooo glad that I did.

If men could experience this wonder -- I think our world would be a much different (kinder) place.

There is nothing like the love between a mother and child.

Which is why, when women spout off about the endless "work" of childcare, I call BS. You guys LOVE it.

[Drea]

No offense - I'm sure it's great. But I'll go without the monthly cycles, breast feeding, weight gain etc. and stick to my cigars in the waiting room

Do you have any children Jerry?

My son's father did not wait out in the waiting room. He came in there with me when I gave birth and he cried like a baby when he saw his son.

My brother was there for the birth of his first child. He too cried at the amazement of it.

If you don't have kids yet, when you do, go in with her. It's something you shouldn't miss.

Ok, monthly cycles really suck. But some things (children) are worth it. I got back to my "size" within 1 year so no problemo there. Breast feeding (although I didn't for reasons I won't go into here) is also incredibly amazing. It's amazing that a woman's body can nurture and sustain another human being. Those who did breastfeed say it's the best, being so close and bonding with your baby.

[Drea]

Which is why, when women spout off about the endless "work" of childcare, I call BS. You guys LOVE it.

It aint all roses Jer.

Ever been up with a baby who cried for six months straight?

Or the 2 year old who has a "fit" in the grocery store?

Ever work really hard at a difficult job, finally get to the end of it, and feel a huge sense of accomplishment? Even though it was really taxing and you didn't think you'd get through it? That's what it's about.

[JerrySeinfeld]

No offense - I'm sure it's great. But I'll go without the monthly cycles, breast feeding, weight gain etc. and stick to my cigars in the waiting room

Do you have any children Jerry?

My son's father did not wait out in the waiting room. He came in there with me when I gave birth and he cried like a baby when he saw his son.

My brother was there for the birth of his first child. He too cried at the amazement of it.

If you don't have kids yet, when you do, go in with her. It's something you shouldn't miss.

Ok, monthly cycles really suck. But some things (children) are worth it. I got back to my "size" within 1 year so no problemo there. Breast feeding (although I didn't for reasons I won't go into here) is also incredibly amazing. It's amazing that a woman's body can nurture and sustain another human being. Those who did breastfeed say it's the best, being so close and bonding with your baby.

Hey - whatever floats your boat.

Not for me. As a close friend and physician once said "whoever says childbirh is a beautiful thing has never witnessed it."

[Drea]

Hey - whatever floats your boat.

Not for me. As a close friend and physician once said "whoever says childbirh is a beautiful thing has never witnessed it."

What do you mean by "whatever floats your boat"?

I never once said it was beautiful -- there's friggin blood and sweat everywhere -- ick!

How old are you Jer?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Hey - whatever floats your boat.

Not for me. As a close friend and physician once said "whoever says childbirh is a beautiful thing has never witnessed it."

What do you mean by "whatever floats your boat"?

I never once said it was beautiful -- there's friggin blood and sweat everywhere -- ick!

How old are you Jer?

Old enough to know I don't want kids - but as I say; different strokes for different folks.

You're not going to try to change my mind are you?

[Drea]

Old enough to know I don't want kids - but as I say; different strokes for different folks.

You're not going to try to change my mind are you?

Heck no, not me. Some gorgeous young woman you fall in love with might tho.

As I've said before, I didn't want kids when I was in my 20's. Thankfully I got pregnant and got to experience the whole difficult, incredible, rewarding experience.

Never say never Jer.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Old enough to know I don't want kids - but as I say; different strokes for different folks.

You're not going to try to change my mind are you?

Heck no, not me. Some gorgeous young woman you fall in love with might tho.

As I've said before, I didn't want kids when I was in my 20's. Thankfully I got pregnant and got to experience the whole difficult, incredible, rewarding experience.

Never say never Jer.

I dunno. From the outside looking in it's amusing to me. People run around with their babies like they've done something magical and amazing. Gosh - ants breed, cockroaches breed, dogs breed, EVERYTHING breeds...yet human beings seem to want a medal because they breed.

I guess you gotta be into that kind of thing.

One thought: I can't decide if breeding is the most selfish or the most UNselfish thing someone can do??? Know what I mean?

[Drea]

I dunno. From the outside looking in it's amusing to me. People run around with their babies like they've done something magical and amazing. Gosh - ants breed, cockroaches breed, dogs breed, EVERYTHING breeds...yet human beings seem to want a medal because they breed.

I guess you gotta be into that kind of thing.

One thought: I can't decide if breeding is the most selfish or the most UNselfish thing someone can do??? Know what I mean?

I feel like I've gone back in time and am talking to my young self. You sound exactly like I did when I was about 25.

Until I experienced it first hand (at age 28) of course.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I dunno. From the outside looking in it's amusing to me. People run around with their babies like they've done something magical and amazing. Gosh - ants breed, cockroaches breed, dogs breed, EVERYTHING breeds...yet human beings seem to want a medal because they breed.

I guess you gotta be into that kind of thing.

One thought: I can't decide if breeding is the most selfish or the most UNselfish thing someone can do??? Know what I mean?

I feel like I've gone back in time and am talking to my young self. You sound exactly like I did when I was about 25.

Until I experienced it first hand (at age 28) of course.

hehe. I surpassed 25 quite awhile back. I'm still keeping the bachelor dream alive for all you married folk out there.

it's tough - went to hawaii last month - off to vegas next month...and portugal in the summer...meet people from all over the world, keep in touch with em, visit friends in boca raton over the winter....darn it all it sucks!

[Drea]

hehe. I surpassed 25 quite awhile back. I'm still keeping the bachelor dream alive for all you married folk out there.

it's tough - went to hawaii last month - off to vegas next month...and portugal in the summer...meet people from all over the world, keep in touch with em, visit friends in boca raton over the winter....darn it all it sucks!

Really good friend of mine. Travelled the world throughout his youth. He's now 44 and looking for a mate for life. He realizes he doesn't want to be alone forever and would like to have some children too.

He just went to Mexico, had fun with a little Chickita, but he said it was pretty hollow.

[JerrySeinfeld]

hehe. I surpassed 25 quite awhile back. I'm still keeping the bachelor dream alive for all you married folk out there.

it's tough - went to hawaii last month - off to vegas next month...and portugal in the summer...meet people from all over the world, keep in touch with em, visit friends in boca raton over the winter....darn it all it sucks!

Really good friend of mine. Travelled the world throughout his youth. He's now 44 and looking for a mate for life. He realizes he doesn't want to be alone forever and would like to have some children too.

He just went to Mexico, had fun with a little Chickita, but he said it was pretty hollow.

I guess he'sa convert then. But one anecdote does not make the case. I love my bachelorhood.

I have wonderful relationships in many spots around the world and at home. I am anything but alone or lonely.

People assume that if you're not married with kids then you are "alone" and your existence is hollow. I beg to differ. As long as you maintain healthy,meaningful relationships with the women and men in your life it can be very fullfilling and liberating to know there is more than one way to skin a cat

[piercj2]

I was just thinking about the relationship between working and having a family in this country and I realized that there are so many unreal expectations that people have. I was sitting in this litte researuant about a week ago and I heard these girls talking about how thery are going to get married right out ot college to thier boyfreinds and start a family. It happens all the time. The fact is due to women working, our economy being not so great, living expenses being higher and the way our society been influenced by media, hollowywood, feminsim, and just the our generation changing there is so many unrealistic expectations. I just felt like telling these girls if they realized that the average marriage ocuurs at about the age of twenty seven, about fifty percent get divorce, one out of every three don't make it past five years, and still in many others, someone is cheating or someone is just unhappy. Sometimes I feel like I am the only young person (22) who thinks about these things. I mean so many high school and college students have this romantic veiw of being married, and the women choosing when, how often, and if they want to work while still having a family. Sometimes I feel like shouting, "Its not that easy." Most famillies depend on a two salaries to sustain the family, and that is saying that you are able to sustain and enjoy a career. Even amongst very intellegent people I talk to, I still think so many people are just not in toon to the real word

[JerrySeinfeld]

I was just thinking about the relationship between working and having a family in this country and I realized that there are so many unreal expectations that people have. I was sitting in this litte researuant about a week ago and I heard these girls talking about how thery are going to get married right out ot college to thier boyfreinds and start a family. It happens all the time. The fact is due to women working, our economy being not so great, living expenses being higher and the way our society been influenced by media, hollowywood, feminsim, and just the our generation changing there is so many unrealistic expectations. I just felt like telling these girls if they realized that the average marriage ocuurs at about the age of twenty seven, about fifty percent get divorce, one out of every three don't make it past five years, and still in many others, someone is cheating or someone is just unhappy. Sometimes I feel like I am the only young person (22) who thinks about these things. I mean so many high school and college students have this romantic veiw of being married, and the women choosing when, how often, and if they want to work while still having a family. Sometimes I feel like shouting, "Its not that easy." Most famillies depend on a two salaries to sustain the family, and that is saying that you are able to sustain and enjoy a career. Even amongst very intellegent people I talk to, I still think so many people are just not in toon to the real word

As hard as we try it's hard for humans to break the hard wired behaviors: women seek long term mates to provide for them and the childeren they so desperately want to have.

Men look around for as many mates as possible.

Perhaps we haven't changed that much from the caveman days which so definitely shaped our current selves.

[piercj2]

I think that what you siad is really why I think about these issues of gender today. I also beleive, that at a woman's heart (even though some don't admit it) she wants to have a husband to support her and a children, however I think men are more independent and content for one night stands and hook ups. When you try to rationalize all this in our society, or any society, really nothing makes pure sense. There are millions of woman out there that can support themselves and do fine alone, but most seem so desperate for a relationship, and/ or a husband, and alot of the time they don't seem like women who are emotionally needy or lonely. I also beleive, that feminism really warped the mind of alot of women, I think millions of women were perfectly happy raising thier family, and a small group of voices overwelmed them into thinking they were not doing real work. Men, I think usually just remain men, and not much is going to change them, they have always been the same and will be, while women change, adapt, and in my opinion never really know exactly who they are (some of them). I mean for billions of years, women's primary job has been to raise and take care of the family, this goes back to biblical times, and now they all the sudden out of now where are career minded? I think outside influence definately had something to do with that. I mean what history book before the 1950s depicted women wanting to be independent, support themselves, and take over society. Exactly, none. I also feel this out of women's nature, they are so indecisive and gullable, that their core heart's desires are often hard to get at.

[Drea]

I guess he'sa convert then. But one anecdote does not make the case. I love my bachelorhood.

I have wonderful relationships in many spots around the world and at home. I am anything but alone or lonely.

People assume that if you're not married with kids then you are "alone" and your existence is hollow. I beg to differ. As long as you maintain healthy,meaningful relationships with the women and men in your life it can be very fullfilling and liberating to know there is more than one way to skin a cat

He didn't mean his life was hollow -- the sex, though it was fun for him, he felt it was hollow (superficial).

Then along comes little pierce...

Many of us women, pierce DO end up having our cake and eating it too. Life is great! Many of us have awesome careers and children too.

The whole idea that you can't have both is antiquated.

I mean for billions of years, women's primary job has been to raise and take care of the family, this goes back to biblical times, and now they all the sudden out of now where are career minded? I think outside influence definately had something to do with that. I mean what history book before the 1950s depicted women wanting to be independent, support themselves, and take over society

Biblical time is maybe 4000 years old.

Sorry to be nitpicky but if your a Christian then what are you doing talking about "billions" of years ago? In Christianity we only got here a few thousand years ago.

I don't think the women's adgenda includes "taking over society" (as though we're like, aliens or something coming to take over!)

You can read about the sufferagettes, they were active in the beginning of the 20th century. They got us women the vote.

Of course having children is valuable in our society (ie real work) but in today's economic climate a family needs two income earners. Needs two people who are able to share the workload equally. This does not mean that women want to stop having children. Having children is a woman's choice, but, thankfully for feminists, it's no longer our ONLY choice.

Rented Pride and Prejudice last night -- I said to my husband "I'm so glad it's 2006."

Those young woman, in the movie, HAD to find a mate or be a burden on their parents for life. How horrible it must have been to be so dependent! Once again, I thank the feminists of the 20th century.

[August1991]

Although I was never planning on having children -- I am sooo glad that I did.

If men could experience this wonder -- I think our world would be a much different (kinder) place.

Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir were all mothers. What's your point?

[August1991]

The fact is due to women working, our economy being not so great, living expenses being higher and the way our society been influenced by media, hollowywood, feminsim, and just the our generation changing there is so many unrealistic expectations.

I think I can safely say that young people with unrealistic expectations is not a new phenomenon. The fact of the matter is that we only get one chance to live our life. We don't get a chance to play the game a second time.

[Drea]

Although I was never planning on having children -- I am sooo glad that I did.

If men could experience this wonder -- I think our world would be a much different (kinder) place.

Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir were all mothers. What's your point?

3 powerful (gasp!) women were mothers. So what?

The point was NOT to say there are NO "bad" women. Silly.

The point was to say that if men were to experience love like a mother does maybe there would be LESS strife in the world.

Not that it had anything whatsoever to do with the conversation I was having with Jerry, but hey, if yah wanna jump in with "Some women are bad!", you go right on ahead.

[August1991]

As hard as we try it's hard for humans to break the hard wired behaviors: women seek long term mates to provide for them and the childeren they so desperately want to have.

Men look around for as many mates as possible.

Perhaps we haven't changed that much from the caveman days which so definitely shaped our current selves.

That argument seems to be a rationalization of your behaviour (or self-declared behaviour since we have no evidence other than your say-so).

Many species do not behave as you suggest and anyway, the relations between females and males are more complex. For example, you imply that only women want to procreate when that is clearly false. Men too are hard-wired to procreate. Considering other species, at issue is who will bear the burden of raising the young.

In the past, people had children in part to take care of them in old age. Now, people rely on markets and the State to do this. It is an interesting question which long-term contracts are likely to be more honoured: those within a family, between anonymous individuals or through the State.

[Drea]

I think some men tend to forget that sex is enjoyable for women too.

Some think that it's only the man who wants to have sex for the sake of sex. Both genders have a sex drive, not a "procreation" drive.

August -- sorry for jumpin' on you in the other post, my bad.

[piercj2]

I still hold to what I said about woman being gullable and a little irrational. I mean I have already quoted biblical scriptures that have said the exact same thing in earlier posts. ALso watch any reality t.v. show or just observe society as a whole and see how many woman are in relationships where they they think they are perfectly functional, and they are in "love," when half of the time they guy doesen't even care about them. I mean watch the real world, or road rules, or any other reality t.v. show and you can see that girls are always crying about some guy who, "said they loved her," or "really cared about her," or other things like this. Like, that show called the Gauntlet right now, watch how Jodie, randomly hooks up with guys than then thinks she's in love or something and crys(Alton, Mark). Or watch on the new real world, how one of those girls, especially the little skinny one (anarexic) is always crying about something. ALso, girls are desperate for attention, just go to any college bar or anything. I know that some people aready said this was, "flirty," or, "playing games," but there is a big difference between flirting, and being desperate and that line is crossed. And just look how sexually promisquous women are in our society, and the media, sex in the city, desperate housewives, graves anatomy, or anything else, I mean aren't women suppose to have a little bit of innocence to them and not just throw everything out there. And just think about all the books, and internet dating sites often but there to help a woman find a relationship. Most women do want a meaningful relationship otherwise they wouldn't think about, cry about, and dedicate so much of themselves to finding a partner. Everything in our society shows this side of them. I guess the other side of this is the fact, that maybe some people think there is nothing wrong with women being sexually promisquous and provocative and having affairs. As a man, I always did value a little purity and innoncence in a woman