SCC allows kirpans

[Hydraboss]

Cyber, answer for me the question geoffery posed earlier:

Can I wear a rapier to my kid's school? No. But why not? No one has ever been threatened or injured in Canadian schools with one.

What about a full-fledged sword? I am Christian, and during the Crusades it was acceptable for Christian knights to carry them. Would you have a problem with my kid wearing one?

If you do, then you are a bigot, ignorant and intolerant.

[cybercoma]

Cyber, answer for me the question geoffery posed earlier:

Can I wear a rapier to my kid's school? No. But why not? No one has ever been threatened or injured in Canadian schools with one.

What about a full-fledged sword? I am Christian, and during the Crusades it was acceptable for Christian knights to carry them. Would you have a problem with my kid wearing one?

If you do, then you are a bigot, ignorant and intolerant.

These comparisons are idiotic. They're not a symbol of the faith, nor are they demanded as signs of devotion to your religion. If they were, then I'm certain the SCC would have no problem with your kid carrying them, with the same limitations they put on the kirpans.

And yes, there was a kid in Alberta that went through his highschool with a sword on a murderous rampage.

Of course, it wasn't a sikh and it wasn't a religious ornament he was using. He brought the sword specifically for the act of murdering other students.

Regardless, I don't think carrying the sword should be a crime, hell I don't think carrying guns should be a crime. MURDERING PEOPLE ON THE OTHERHAND.....

[GostHacked]

It's not being carried to be used in the capacity that you're suggesting. Once again, let me know when Sikh's in Canada are using their Kirpans to commit violent crimes in our schools. It doesn't happen, because that's not what they're for. I'm very sorry that you're too bigoted, ignorant and intolerant to understand that.

It might not be used by the person wearing it. That will not prevent others from taking it and using it for other puposes. Why even take the chance? It is not ignorant or bigoted.

[GostHacked]

I like Maple Leaf Forum because it is the only English language forum in Canada (that I know of) where everyone can freely express a viewpoint and have it fairly considered. This thread is proof.

I am glad I visit this site on a regular basis. If I was on that site, along with Black Dog, BHS, Monty Burns... each one of us would get a instant permaban.

I am glad things are a little more relaxed around here. I have never had the urge/need to find another place to visit.

[cybercoma]

It's not being carried to be used in the capacity that you're suggesting. Once again, let me know when Sikh's in Canada are using their Kirpans to commit violent crimes in our schools. It doesn't happen, because that's not what they're for. I'm very sorry that you're too bigoted, ignorant and intolerant to understand that.

It might not be used by the person wearing it. That will not prevent others from taking it and using it for other puposes. Why even take the chance? It is not ignorant or bigoted.

Because "why take the chance" logic can be extended infinitely. Literally, ANYTHING can be used as a weapon.

[August1991]

Is the issue safety in schools or religious dress?

Once again, let me know when Sikh's in Canada are using their Kirpans to commit violent crimes in our schools. It doesn't happen, because that's not what they're for. I'm very sorry that you're too bigoted, ignorant and intolerant to understand that.

In France, it's illegal for a girl to wear a scarf in school, and I don't think a scarf has ever been used to commit a violent crime. (Well, I guess you could strangle someone with a scarf.)

Cybercoma, are the French bigotted, ignorant and intolerant?

Once again, in Canada, is public safety in schools the issue, or is it something else?

----

I am glad things are a little more relaxed around here. I have never had the urge/need to find another place to visit.

Relaxed? It gets heated sometimes.

[cybercoma]

It's a dagger. Your point?

It's not being carried to be used in the capacity that you're suggesting. Once again, let me know when Sikh's in Canada are using their Kirpans to commit violent crimes in our schools. It doesn't happen, because that's not what they're for. I'm very sorry that you're too bigoted, ignorant and intolerant to understand that.

In France, it's illegal for a girl to wear a scarf in school, and I don't think a scarf has ever been used to commit a violent crime. (Well, I guess you could strangle someone with a scarf.)

Cybercoma, are the French bigotted, ignorant and intolerant?

Yes.

[August1991]

Cybercoma, are the French bigotted, ignorant and intolerant?

Yes.

And you're not?

[cybercoma]

That has no bearing on whether or not they are.

[August1991]

Those kirpans are not only a religious symbol but also used as a weapon. A few years back when there was dissention amongst the Temperates and Moderates, at least half a dozen people were injured from the use of the kirpan. I know cuz I lived in "the war zone" and witnessed it happening.

Can you provide a reference to this claim?

[Biblio Bibuli]

Those kirpans are not only a religious symbol but also used as a weapon.

Can you provide a reference to this claim?

Why should he?

Wouldn't YOU use it if you .... say ... feared for you life?

[gerryhatrick]

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need.

Do you have a source for that?

Everything I've read says it is never used as a weapon.

[politika]

Here is a case where I definitely think the Prime Minister SHOULD use the not-withstanding clause to overturn this ridiculous decision.

Too dangerous, the Liberals would have a ticket to the minority population next election.

Elections aside, we should just treat everyone equally and ban all religious items and symbols from school.

I disagree. I think Harper could make some serious political hay by pointing out that if the Liberals had their way, the not-withstanding clause would have been eliminated, and the Prime Minister would no longer have the ability to protect school kids from this outrageous decision. People would be thanking their lucky stars that the Liberals didn't get in. The polls I've seen show 95-99% of respondants are opposed to the Supreme Court's decision. That means a LOT of Liberal voters are not happy with this, and would probably welcome some way to reverse it.

What's outrageous is the idea that Sikh's would be attacking other students with something they carry as a religious symbol. Whoever came up with the idea that this was something of "public safety" should be looked-down upon for trying to persecute people for the religion they practice. We're not talking about allowing assault and murder, we're allowing someone to carry a religious relic. Why not ban rosaries while we're at it, because you could probably strangle someone with one of those...or dig their eyes out with the crucifix.

Just because they're carrying the Kirpan does not mean they're going to be murdering school children.

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

[gerryhatrick]

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

You get the stupid post of the year award. Hands down.

Go get educated on the Kirpan. Then come back and try again.

[politika]

Has anyone ever been attacked with a Kirpan?

Uhm, yes.

In a school? With a kirpan that met school regulations?

----

Look, we are talking about some kid wearing the equivalent of a cross around his neck. If you want to forbid all forms of religious symbols in State schools, then fine. Let's do it and get on with life. Then, if some people want to have a religious school where they can freely genuflect and carry bazookas to the Great God of Ordnance, they can organize (and pay for) their own schools.

IOW, if this thread is just a rant against religion in State schools, then say so.

Yes but can a cross around the neck kill somone as a knife can?

[politika]

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

You get the stupid post of the year award. Hands down.

Go get educated on the Kirpan. Then come back and try again.

THe Kirpan is a knife you ignornat fool, your post arnt anyhting special either almost somthing to laugh at you can hardly state your oppinions with out backing them up. A kirpan is a knife and can be used in a assault mos tof these people in this forum will back me up, and if you got your head out of your ass you would know that.

Just answer me this would you want your kid in a school where a kid with a KNIFE was sitting next to him? DOn;t even tell me you would. Anyways wtf arms their kid?

[geoffrey]

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

You get the stupid post of the year award. Hands down.

Go get educated on the Kirpan. Then come back and try again.

THe Kirpan is a knife you ignornat fool, your post arnt anyhting special either almost somthing to laugh at you can hardly state your oppinions with out backing them up. A kirpan is a knife and can be used in a assault mos tof these people in this forum will back me up, and if you got your head out of your ass you would know that.

Just answer me this would you want your kid in a school where a kid with a KNIFE was sitting next to him? DOn;t even tell me you would. Anyways wtf arms their kid?

Apparently the bandwidth on the Sikh Canada homepage has been excede by everyone look at that article I posted earlier in this thread.

The comment earlier about the crusader sword isn't invalid. The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol of victory for freedom of their religion, victory gained through military means. So why not wear my 6 foot broadsword, symbol of my religions victory for freedom?

Why? Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

The Sikh's do not believe in Canadian law, it says so in their guidelines, that they must put their religion first. And removal of a Kirpan is like an attack on religion so they can defend with lethal force if anyone tries to take it away.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us, and leave their weapons at home, they can go move to some place that accepts weapons carried around all the time.

Seriously, Canada is no place for weapons to be carried on all people at all times. How ridiculous. Either have them denounce their views on carrying weapons at all times or deport.

[Chimera]

Your right, Canada is a civilized country. As such the contempt the Sikh community has shown other towards Canadians is mind boggling. The contempt the Supreme Court has shown towards other Canadians is mind boggling. If the kirpan is a symbol, make it out of plastic or miniturize it down to a lapel pin.

Who protects Canadians from the tyranny of the minority?

Yes but can a cross around the neck kill somone as a knife can?

If the SCC had upheld the absolute ban on Kirpans, then even these would not be allowed. Would that be just? The decision still does not prevent schools from banning them on a case by case basis, it just means they are not banned outright.

No kirpans in school.

No turbans in the RCMP. <rant>

Canadian laws and values. If you want to wear your turban, you are not going to be an RCMP, the hat is symbolic of the history of the RCMP. wearing your turban degrades and dishonours your commitment to the RCMP.

And those things should be taken out of schools. Instead of saying .. well they MAY hurt someone. Why take the chance.

When in Rome do what the Romans do. When in Canada, do what we do. I was really upset they allowed the turbans in the RCMP. That is NOT, I repeat NOT discrimination. Tradition of a long standing Canadian Iconic establishment. There are not many things that you can claim to be Canadian. Why ruin what we have left.

</rant>

Is our society and culture so fragile that a few turbans will destroy it? I used to think like you when I was younger. Then I met a few Sikhs while I was in the army. They wore their turbans, but it did not make them any less of a Canadian soldier. It is actually the idea of the multicultural society that Trudeau envisioned, and I now agree with. These Sikhs have integrated into our society, while still being allowed to practice their own religious beliefs. If you take away their freedoms of religion, they will resent our society, and never integrate, they will always be outsiders. IMHO, that is more dangerous to our society than a million turbans in our forces.

[gerryhatrick]

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

You get the stupid post of the year award. Hands down.

Go get educated on the Kirpan. Then come back and try again.

THe Kirpan is a knife you ignornat fool, your post arnt anyhting special either almost somthing to laugh at you can hardly state your oppinions with out backing them up. A kirpan is a knife and can be used in a assault mos tof these people in this forum will back me up, and if you got your head out of your ass you would know that.

Just answer me this would you want your kid in a school where a kid with a KNIFE was sitting next to him? DOn;t even tell me you would.

Obviously the Supreme Court of Canada disagrees with you.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. Your claim that it is something that will be used is one of ignorance and stupidity.

Anyways wtf arms their kid?

Your competing with yourself for that stupid post award.

Go educate yourself. Don't make one false determination and then read into it all of your own fears and biases.

[gerryhatrick]

When in Rome do what the Romans do. When in Canada, do what we do. I was really upset they allowed the turbans in the RCMP. That is NOT, I repeat NOT discrimination.

Oh yes it is. It's intollerant and hateful also. But most importantly, it's extremely ignorant also. Many of those people wearing turbans ARE CANADIAN.

If you don't like Canada and what it is I invite you to move someplace else. My Canada is multi-cultural. That doesn't mean we allow immigrants and expect them to conform and become "Canadian" in some shape or form after we've given them citizenship. It means they ARE CANADIAN after they get thier citizenship and we are HAPPY to see them keep all of who they are when they arrived in this nation.

By your logic, We should all be living in teepees on the plains and eating bannock. Or living in igloos? Or does you "while in Rome do as Romans do" mantra only apply to immigrants starting now, with YOU being an example of a "Roman"?

It makes me proud that the RCMP allows turbans to be worn. It made that institution richer, and if you can't see that you're missing part of what it is to be a Canadian.

[gerryhatrick]

Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

Sihks aren't ridiculous. They are proud and noble and worthy Canadians.

Roll out some more hate and intollerance....this is fun.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us,

I think you should re-consider. I don't see a person with intollerant and hateful attitudes like your own to be truely Canadian.

[Shakeyhands]

you know, one thing that I am not positive on is this, is the Kirpan sharpened or is it a dull blank so to speak?

anyone know?

[Argus]

Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

Sihks aren't ridiculous. They are proud and noble and worthy Canadians.

Roll out some more hate and intollerance....this is fun.

Do you honestly think the majority of people in our secular society could ever relate to an orthodox sikh with those big turbans, ridiculous beards, costumes and knives? They are curious relics of another age from a land where goat herding is still considered high technology.

[Minimus Maximus]

I've asked a couple of Sikhs about this issue and have been ensured that children are taught that improper usage of the kirpan would be sacreligious and would not be tolerated. Sikh children are taught that the kirpan is a symbol and as such has no other actual use. The day I see a Sikh child peeling an apple with a kirpan I will start to worry for my childrens safety.

[Argus]

Has anyone ever been attacked with a Kirpan?

Uhm, yes.

In a school? With a kirpan that met school regulations?

Now you're refining the question. I don't know. I suppose it would take a long search to find out. However, we have had very, very, very few orthodox sikh kids wanting to wear knives to school, so quite possibly not - so far. That's not really the point, though, is it?

Look, we are talking about some kid wearing the equivalent of a cross around his neck.

No, we're not. Crosses are innocuous and harmless. A knive is neither. It's a very visible weapon. It is not a religious ornament which can be used as a weapon. It is a weapon which can be used as a religious ornament.

And frankly, this kid would have been involved in a lot of fights. You must know as well as anyone else how kids pick on the wierd and bizare in school. And this kid with his turban and his costume and his knife would have been fodder for every bully in the school. You don't think one or two might not have decided to take this knife away from him?

If you want to forbid all forms of religious symbols in State schools, then fine. Let's do it and get on with life.

I don't have a problem with small ornaments, with little crosses or stars of david, or any other little symbol such as the Wiccans wear. I have to admit to a problem with religions which require a full fledged costume be worn everywhere they go. To me, this is designed primarily to ensure they never blend in with others, that they have only each other to associate with. A kid dressed like this will be stared at and mocked everywhere - except among his own, which will come to be the only place he feels at home and comfortable.