David Suzuki getting wiser?

[cybercoma]

Personally I think we need to stop the growth and start building to support the population we have.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

The problem is indirectly related to infrastructure, and much more directly related to the fact that you (and everyone else) can drive on the road for "free".

This leads to so many other problems: wasted fuel, wasted time, excessive air pollution, wear-and-tear on the roads, accidents, incorrectly built roads, badly designed and zoned cities.

If I had to make an urgent to-do-list for the environment, one item would be charging drivers for the use of road space according to the specific time they use it - free at 3 am, expensive at 5 pm.

Punish those who work 9-5 jobs? Interesting.

But let drunk drivers roam around for free....hmm.

[Black Dog]

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

Or how about build cities that don't require long commutes from residence to employment? Come to think of it, all that really needs to be done is for individuals to rethink their lifestyle and consumption choices. Building more roads is not the solution to traffic.

[Hicksey]

Personally I think we need to stop the growth and start building to support the population we have.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

The problem is indirectly related to infrastructure, and much more directly related to the fact that you (and everyone else) can drive on the road for "free".

This leads to so many other problems: wasted fuel, wasted time, excessive air pollution, wear-and-tear on the roads, accidents, incorrectly built roads, badly designed and zoned cities.

If I had to make an urgent to-do-list for the environment, one item would be charging drivers for the use of road space according to the specific time they use it - free at 3 am, expensive at 5 pm.

Have you seen the level of taxation on cars and gasoline and diesel fuel? Trucks pay on a per mile and fuel mileage basis already.

Driving on our roadways is far from free.

[geoffrey]

Personally I think we need to stop the growth and start building to support the population we have.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

The problem is indirectly related to infrastructure, and much more directly related to the fact that you (and everyone else) can drive on the road for "free".

This leads to so many other problems: wasted fuel, wasted time, excessive air pollution, wear-and-tear on the roads, accidents, incorrectly built roads, badly designed and zoned cities.

If I had to make an urgent to-do-list for the environment, one item would be charging drivers for the use of road space according to the specific time they use it - free at 3 am, expensive at 5 pm.

I can't remember where I saw this, but there is definitely a large city that does this already. It's based on license plates, you buy a different plate for times you want to drive, all at prices that depend on demand. It's encouraged companies to stagger schedules as an employment benifet, and traffic troubles have been greatly reduced.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

Or how about build cities that don't require long commutes from residence to employment? Come to think of it, all that really needs to be done is for individuals to rethink their lifestyle and consumption choices. Building more roads is not the solution to traffic.

Correct, more roads encourage more people to drive. Building more roads has never solved any traffic issues.

[Hicksey]

Personally I think we need to stop the growth and start building to support the population we have.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

The problem is indirectly related to infrastructure, and much more directly related to the fact that you (and everyone else) can drive on the road for "free".

This leads to so many other problems: wasted fuel, wasted time, excessive air pollution, wear-and-tear on the roads, accidents, incorrectly built roads, badly designed and zoned cities.

If I had to make an urgent to-do-list for the environment, one item would be charging drivers for the use of road space according to the specific time they use it - free at 3 am, expensive at 5 pm.

I can't remember where I saw this, but there is definitely a large city that does this already. It's based on license plates, you buy a different plate for times you want to drive, all at prices that depend on demand. It's encouraged companies to stagger schedules as an employment benifet, and traffic troubles have been greatly reduced.

How many litres of gasoline and diesel do you think are wasted, and extra unnecessary polution contributed because the city of Toronto hasn't built roads to support the population explosion in the area? Every truck that sits idling in traffic waiting to move uses 3 litres of diesel fuel per hour. In my average trip across the city each day in my truck I spend no less than 40 min idling along (most days in excess of an hour) the 401. If we build better roads, it lends to better and more reliable public transportation, which in turn might make it a more appealing alternative.

Or how about build cities that don't require long commutes from residence to employment? Come to think of it, all that really needs to be done is for individuals to rethink their lifestyle and consumption choices. Building more roads is not the solution to traffic.

Correct, more roads encourage more people to drive. Building more roads has never solved any traffic issues.

Then stop charging me taxes for the roads. I refuse to pay for infrastructure they're not building. The roads in the GTA, specifically the majors, are in horrible condition.

The reason people do not live near where they work (especially in the GTA) is because real estate values and property taxes are beyond outrageous in downtown areas. Not everyone that works downtown can afford to live downtown.

[speaker]

to me the obvious response is get off the Reserve. Go find work and a life with out the problems.

[Spike22]

Speaker, so your solution is to import everyone into one of the last places with wilderness left to protect, which will ultimately destroy it?

Canada has 25% of world's remaining wilderness forests.

We have immigrants that need to start a new life why not give them a nice lot to start their new life here in Canada?

[geoffrey]

*Removed due to my confusion on the topic*

[quinton]

Spike22, because Canada is a land of harsh climate and predominately shield rock and is not suited towards sustaining more people than it already has at the expense of its biodiversity and ecological integrity.

Canada could never sustain all of the foreigners who would love to live here.

Do you know why they come here? In many cases, simply to earn money, but in other cases, they come here because of the wealth of natural resources. Eg: There are more Netherlands born farmers in Canada than Nova Scotian born farmers.

In Netherlands they are too overpopulated to have their own affordable farm land, so here in Canada we let them have our farm land.

If we go the same way as the Netherlands, no one will want to immigrate here because the cost of living will be sky high and there'll be no resources left.

[geoffrey]

Spike22, because Canada is a land of harsh climate and predominately shield rock and is not suited towards sustaining more people than it already has at the expense of its biodiversity and ecological integrity.

Canada could never sustain all of the foreigners who would love to live here.

Do you know why they come here? In many cases, simply to earn money, but in other cases, they come here because of the wealth of natural resources. Eg: There are more Netherlands born farmers in Canada than Nova Scotian born farmers.

In Netherlands they are too overpopulated to have their own affordable farm land, so here in Canada we let them have our farm land.

If we go the same way as the Netherlands, no one will want to immigrate here because the cost of living will be sky high and there'll be no resources left.

Size of Netherlands, size of Canada... Netherlands has 1/2 the people of Canada, and about 1/20 the size of useable land. Nope sorry, we've got room. Bring 'em on over.

[quinton]

geoffery, the Netherlands does not have the option of producing enough food to feed its own people.

With over 385 people per square kilometer, common sense will tell you that you cannot feed that many people on a square kilometer which is about 200 acres.

Once you've subtracted the land for Netherlanders dwellings, cities, and roads, you can see that they could never be self sufficient.

geoffery, do you want to import so many immigrants into Canada that we can no longer feed our own people?

[geoffrey]

geoffery, the Netherlands does not have the option of producing enough food to feed its own people.

With over 385 people per square kilometer, common sense will tell you that you cannot feed that many people on a square kilometer which is about 200 acres.

Once you've subtracted the land for Netherlanders dwellings, cities, and roads, you can see that they could never be self sufficient.

geoffery, do you want to import so many immigrants into Canada that we can no longer feed our own people?

We've got lots and lots of food. We are a massive exporter of food!

Personally, I don't care about immigrants from an economic perspective. Let them come. I only object to immigrants that refuse to accept Western ways. Besides, we need more people, our birth rates are declining!

We can't have billions coming, but a few here and there should be ok.

[Riverwind]

Size of Netherlands, size of Canada... Netherlands has 1/2 the people of Canada, and about 1/20 the size of useable land. Nope sorry, we've got room. Bring 'em on over.

Holland exists within the context larger European continent. You cannot extrapolate the population densities you see in Holland over larger land areas.

Canada could support a larger population than it has now but I don't see the point - increasing the population will just divide the resource pie more. Alberta is swimming in money right now because the oil revenues only have to be shared with a relatively small number of people.

[geoffrey]

Size of Netherlands, size of Canada... Netherlands has 1/2 the people of Canada, and about 1/20 the size of useable land. Nope sorry, we've got room. Bring 'em on over.

Holland exists within the context larger European continent. You cannot extrapolate the population densities you see in Holland over larger land areas.

Canada could support a larger population than it has now but I don't see the point - increasing the population will just divide the resource pie more. Alberta is swimming in money right now because the oil revenues only have to be shared with a relatively small number of people.

Not true, we don't have enough people. More people, more spending, more economy. More people to dig oil out of the ground.

Oil revenues aren't a fixed number, they grow with people that move here, take the oil out of the ground, and then spend that money in other businesses.

[BubberMiley]

[Oil revenues aren't a fixed number, they grow with people that move here, take the oil out of the ground, and then spend that money in other businesses.

I didn't think anybody still thought natural resources are infinite. You must be very young.

[August1991]

Have you seen the level of taxation on cars and gasoline and diesel fuel? Trucks pay on a per mile and fuel mileage basis already.

Driving on our roadways is far from free.

You don't pay according to the time at which you drive a vehicle - and that is the whole story. Gasoline taxes are irrelevant because they don't take into account the congestion you impose on others because of the time of day you drive.

Your gasoline tax is equivalent to charging the same for a cottage rental year-round, regardless of the season.

In the case of raods, this is absurd and is equivalent to handing over our natural resources to anyone willing to cart them away. The environments of cities around the world suffer severe problems because of the lack of proper road use pricing.

If you drive on Sunday or at 3 am when there are usually no other vehicles on the roads, it should be free to drive. If you drive on Friday at 4 pm, it should be expensive.

The technology exists to charge vehicles for using roads this way (it could be done with transponders and cellular networks) and cities could eliminate property taxes and solve their revenue problems.

-----

The world's environmental problems are not due to man's greediness or to a mindless consumer society. They are simply due to the fact that while we have to pay for each other's time, we don't have to pay enough for the world's others resources (that paradoxically we collectively own).

IOW, the world lacks too many prices. It is not free market capitalism that is destroying the environment; it is the lack of free market capitalism in too many areas, such as road use.

[Hicksey]

Have you seen the level of taxation on cars and gasoline and diesel fuel? Trucks pay on a per mile and fuel mileage basis already.

Driving on our roadways is far from free.

You don't pay according to the time at which you drive a vehicle - and that is the whole story. Gasoline taxes are irrelevant because they don't take into account the congestion you impose on others because of the time of day you drive.

Your gasoline tax is equivalent to charging the same for a cottage rental year-round, regardless of the season.

In the case of raods, this is absurd and is equivalent to handing over our natural resources to anyone willing to cart them away. The environments of cities around the world suffer severe problems because of the lack of proper road use pricing.

If you drive on Sunday or at 3 am when there are usually no other vehicles on the roads, it should be free to drive. If you drive on Friday at 4 pm, it should be expensive.

The technology exists to charge vehicles for using roads this way (it could be done with transponders and cellular networks) and cities could eliminate property taxes and solve their revenue problems.

-----

The world's environmental problems are not due to man's greediness or to a mindless consumer society. They are simply due to the fact that while we have to pay for each other's time, we don't have to pay enough for the world's others resources (that paradoxically we collectively own).

IOW, the world lacks too many prices. It is not free market capitalism that is destroying the environment; it is the lack of free market capitalism in too many areas, such as road use.

That sounds all fine and dandy, but if you do that goods will become prohibitively expensive. Don't believe me? Everything at every store you buy from got there by truck.

Its either that or sunday at 3 am will become the new friday at 4pm and nothing will be solved from a pollution or congestion standpoint.

[August1991]

That sounds all fine and dandy, but if you do that goods will become prohibitively expensive. Don't believe me? Everything at every store you buy from got there by truck.

Its either that or sunday at 3 am will become the new friday at 4pm and nothing will be solved from a pollution or congestion standpoint.

Precisely. Everything in the stores would be more expensive, and 3 am would become the new 4 pm.

Well, not quite. And in that "not quite" lies all the difference in the world.

(Keep in mind too that this would be money we would just be paying to ourselves. In theory, every dollar paid for road use according to time-of-use could reduce property taxes by one dollar.)

[Hicksey]

That sounds all fine and dandy, but if you do that goods will become prohibitively expensive. Don't believe me? Everything at every store you buy from got there by truck.

Its either that or sunday at 3 am will become the new friday at 4pm and nothing will be solved from a pollution or congestion standpoint.

Precisely. Everything in the stores would be more expensive, and 3 am would become the new 4 pm.

Well, not quite. And in that "not quite" lies all the difference in the world.

(Keep in mind too that this would be money we would just be paying to ourselves. In theory, every dollar paid for road use according to time-of-use could reduce property taxes by one dollar.)

But if people are using the roads during the free time, how does anyone benefit?

[BubberMiley]

But if people are using the roads during the free time, how does anyone benefit?

Oy, because the free time is when you want people using the roads. You need more roads if everybody uses them all at once: charge the highest rate at rush hour and traffic gets spaced out through the day.

[Hicksey]

But if people are using the roads during the free time, how does anyone benefit?

Oy, because the free time is when you want people using the roads. You need more roads if everybody uses them all at once.

I'd tell you one thing. If that happened I'd quit my day job and get a night job. I'll be damned if I am going to spend my whole paycheque getting to work.

[Riverwind]

Oil revenues aren't a fixed number, they grow with people that move here, take the oil out of the ground, and then spend that money in other businesses.

You forget about the law of dimishing returns. Adding 10 to 20% to the population would likely bring a net benefit. Doubling or tripling the population would likely make everyone poorer.

You may remember the recession of the early 1990s: BC was the only part of the country that still had a growing economy. However, that growth was a complete illusion created by population growth - the GDP per person in BC dropped for most of the 1990s.

[geoffrey]

Oil revenues aren't a fixed number, they grow with people that move here, take the oil out of the ground, and then spend that money in other businesses.

You forget about the law of dimishing returns. Adding 10 to 20% to the population would likely bring a net benefit. Doubling or tripling the population would likely make everyone poorer.

You may remember the recession of the early 1990s: BC was the only part of the country that still had a growing economy. However, that growth was a complete illusion created by population growth - the GDP per person in BC dropped for most of the 1990s.

Completely agreed. Sustainable immigration is a key aspect of it. We can triple our population just fine... over a very long period of time.

Unloading a few boats of foreigners isn't going to make us richer. It takes decades to build the economy around these new additions!

[quinton]

geoffrey, you may think Canada can slowly triple its population "just fine".

But I reckon that if these guys could talk, they would disagree with you:

http://www.rom.on.ca/ontario/risk.php?doc_...gion=5&status=3

On behalf of the Barn Owl, Northern Cricket Frog, Lake Erie Watersnake, Spotted Wintergreen and other endangered species of Ontario, I respectfully disagree with your statement.

In fact, I think that if we don't reduce our population and consumption soon, many of these critters and plants will be extinct within our lifetimes.

You saying that we can triple our population is pure ignorance and unscientific.

Maybe according to your vision of casinos, malls and multilane hiways and importing more food and slaughtering more boreal forest this is acceptable...

But not according to my vision of a world that I'd want to live in where nature is plentiful and where you don't have to compete with hoards of people just to enjoy it.

[geoffrey]

geoffrey, you may think Canada can slowly triple its population "just fine".

But I reckon that if these guys could talk, they would disagree with you:

http://www.rom.on.ca/ontario/risk.php?doc_...gion=5&status=3

On behalf of the Barn Owl, Northern Cricket Frog, Lake Erie Watersnake, Spotted Wintergreen and other endangered species of Ontario, I respectfully disagree with your statement.

In fact, I think that if we don't reduce our population and consumption soon, many of these critters and plants will be extinct within our lifetimes.

You saying that we can triple our population is pure ignorance and unscientific.

Maybe according to your vision of casinos, malls and multilane hiways and importing more food and slaughtering more boreal forest this is acceptable...

But not according to my vision of a world that I'd want to live in where nature is plentiful and where you don't have to compete with hoards of people just to enjoy it.

Environmentalism and economic growth can work together. Irresponsible practices in the past have been mostly remedied.

Either way, you haven't explained how your going to stop population growth?