Harper must be banging his head after this quote

[newbie]

I should add, as a Tory, if I ever voted a Tory MP in and they switched to the Liberals I would be REALLY angry...

I agree. I didn't approve of Belinda's crossing without getting a mandate from her constituents. At least she did that in the last election. But this crossing the floor crap has to stop. If they want to leave the party sit as a damn Independent then.

[geoffrey]

I should add, as a Tory, if I ever voted a Tory MP in and they switched to the Liberals I would be REALLY angry...

I agree. I didn't approve of Belinda's crossing without getting a mandate from her constituents. At least she did that in the last election. But this crossing the floor crap has to stop. If they want to leave the party sit as a damn Independent then.

Independants can't do anything. Emerson now better represents his constituants.

We, being non-Vancouverites, should be pissed off because our elected people didn't get cabinet posts (muwaha my MP is PM, suckers ). The last people that should be pissed of is people in Vancouver-Kingsway that now get a seat at the table.

Personally, I think Harper should dismiss Emerson to show to those in Kingsway how stupid they are protesting having their interests represented in Cabinet. :angry:

[tml12]

I should add, as a Tory, if I ever voted a Tory MP in and they switched to the Liberals I would be REALLY angry...

I agree. I didn't approve of Belinda's crossing without getting a mandate from her constituents. At least she did that in the last election. But this crossing the floor crap has to stop. If they want to leave the party sit as a damn Independent then.

Independants can't do anything. Emerson now better represents his constituants.

We, being non-Vancouverites, should be pissed off because our elected people didn't get cabinet posts (muwaha my MP is PM, suckers ). The last people that should be pissed of is people in Vancouver-Kingsway that now get a seat at the table.

Personally, I think Harper should dismiss Emerson to show to those in Kingsway how stupid they are protesting having their interests represented in Cabinet. :angry:

I take it a bit personally because when Belinda defected last May her new "plum cabinet post" was one held by my MP... :angry:

Not that I like either of them...Belinda's a bit hotter though...

Anyways, you make a good point geoffrey...though sorry our MPs can't be as "high up" as yours...

[newbie]

Independants can't do anything. Emerson now better represents his constituants.

We, being non-Vancouverites, should be pissed off because our elected people didn't get cabinet posts (muwaha my MP is PM, suckers ). The last people that should be pissed of is people in Vancouver-Kingsway that now get a seat at the table.

Personally, I think Harper should dismiss Emerson to show to those in Kingsway how stupid they are protesting having their interests represented in Cabinet. :angry:

That's okay if everything is a free vote. But ideologically speaking, this guy switched parties based on a loss or win of his own. He doesn't appear to own his own principles.

[Vancouver King]

Emerson is becoming a liability. Harper needs to get this guy in check, shut him up, and issue a statement about his decision before CBC starts any more leftist rants.

What, exactly, is Emerson bringing to the CPC table? There has to be an upside somewhere in this debacle. According to James Travers of the Star, a softwood agreement is largely accomplished, therefore Emersons negotiating skills can't be the reason. A voice for downtown Vancouver? Voters here are livid over his action and feel disenfranchised - will he give voice to those concerns?

Harper did not help his cause when he was quoted, "I expected that type of superficial criticism", in response to the uproar from voters in the riding. What arrogance. This from the man who promised new ethics in government.

If Harper could redo this episode he would not touch Emerson.

[newbie]

Independants can't do anything.

I'm sure Chuck Cadman would disagree.

[geoffrey]

Emerson is becoming a liability. Harper needs to get this guy in check, shut him up, and issue a statement about his decision before CBC starts any more leftist rants.

What, exactly, is Emerson bringing to the CPC table? There has to be an upside somewhere in this debacle. According to James Travers of the Star, a softwood agreement is largely accomplished, therefore Emersons negotiating skills can't be the reason. A voice for downtown Vancouver? Voters here are livid over his action and feel disenfranchised - will he give voice to those concerns?

Harper did not help his cause when he was quoted, "I expected that type of superficial criticism", in response to the uproar from voters in the riding. What arrogance. This from the man who promised new ethics in government.

If Harper could redo this episode he would not touch Emerson.

I think the intention was to have Emerson speak for Vancouver. But since Vancourites apparently don't want representation in cabinet, I say he dismisses Emerson and says go run in a by-election, just to prove how ignorant they are being right now.

[tml12]

Emerson is becoming a liability. Harper needs to get this guy in check, shut him up, and issue a statement about his decision before CBC starts any more leftist rants.

What, exactly, is Emerson bringing to the CPC table? There has to be an upside somewhere in this debacle. According to James Travers of the Star, a softwood agreement is largely accomplished, therefore Emersons negotiating skills can't be the reason. A voice for downtown Vancouver? Voters here are livid over his action and feel disenfranchised - will he give voice to those concerns?

Harper did not help his cause when he was quoted, "I expected that type of superficial criticism", in response to the uproar from voters in the riding. What arrogance. This from the man who promised new ethics in government.

If Harper could redo this episode he would not touch Emerson.

Harper could have made a better response and Emerson should stop prancing around saying "I'm flabbergasted" and the rest of that "I didn't even think one person would object to this" bullshit criticism he has been offering us.

[newbie]

Emerson thinks he is now the victim apparently.

[tml12]

Emerson thinks he is now the victim apparently.

Or he is trying to "turn the table."

[August1991]

I think the reaction is similar to children who are angry with their choice of ice cream flavour. In the future, choose more carefully.

Choose more carefully? So now when we're in the voting booth we have to realize that our candidate may "cross the floor.?" This is democracy? It's called fraud August. And today 100's of his constituents protested, even calling Emerson a traitor. This is a clear case of Emerson trying to advance his own private interest. He would have stayed Liberal had they won. It's a disgusting situation, and Harper has to move on this if he's to have any credibility on his moral high ground that he platformed on.

On 90% of issues I would back August over Newbie.

On this issue I would have to agree with Newbie. Many of his constituents thought they were getting a Liberal MP and now he's a Tory.

I have a problem with that...

[aside]These quotes within quotes are getting out of hand... [/aside]

How can it be fraud, Newbie? We vote for a member of parliament, not for a party.

If you want a Party system, then let's get rid of parliament and just vote for the Prime Minister President. Or, we could vote for the party and it would choose the candidates, according to a party list. In either case, the party leader or party apparatus would have all the power.

Before, everyone was upset that that the PMO has all the power and MPs were not free to express an opinion. But then when an MP exercises his right to be independent, everyone is also upset.

You can't have it both ways.

----

Representative democracy is not a bad system. You elect a representative and that person then takes decisions on your behalf. In such a system, voters have to know who their representative is. It seems to me that many Canadians don't really want such a system because they aren't prepared to go to the trouble to find out who their candidates are. They just vote for the party, and they don't even go to the trouble of finding out who their party has selected.

In other countries, such as the UK, France and the US, voters know their local candidates and usually expect them to express independent thoughts. Canadian politics resemble Soviet politics.

The Vancouver-Kingsway voters chose Emerson and now some of them are upset about their choice. You call it fraud as if there is a higher authority that can resolve this issue. Newbie, it 's a democracy. We the people are the higher authority.

[shoop]

Emerson feels people have been harassing him because people have been ringing his doorbell and protesting outside his house.

It is a little too much, (Not as a defence of what he did.) But at what point is the guy allowed to have a private life?

Emerson thinks he is now the victim apparently.

[Riverwind]

It is a little too much, (Not as a defence of what he did.) But at what point is the guy allowed to have a private life?

Not if you are a politician in BC... (as Mike Harcourt, Glen Clark and Gorden Campbell have all learned the hard way).

[shoop]

Point made, I guess.

But that still doesn't really justify what those people are doing to the guy, does it?

Not if you are a politician in BC... (as Mike Harcourt, Glen Clark and Gorden Campbell have all learned the hard way).

[Riverwind]

But that still doesn't really justify what those people are doing to the guy, does it?

No. But Emerson will have probably have to have a round the clock bodyguard soon (Campbell did for awhile - may still do so).

What kind of annoys me about these 'protests' is I really doubt that a large number of the protesters are actually Liberals. I suspect most are NDP looking for a cause.

[geoffrey]

But that still doesn't really justify what those people are doing to the guy, does it?

No. But Emerson will have probably have to have a round the clock bodyguard soon (Campbell did for awhile - may still do so).

What kind of annoys me about these 'protests' is I really doubt that a large number of the protesters are actually Liberals. I suspect most are NDP looking for a cause.

Such as winning the riding in a by-election?

[Vancouver King]

But that still doesn't really justify what those people are doing to the guy, does it?

No. But Emerson will have probably have to have a round the clock bodyguard soon (Campbell did for awhile - may still do so).

What kind of annoys me about these 'protests' is I really doubt that a large number of the protesters are actually Liberals. I suspect most are NDP looking for a cause.

To many, the party labels are secondary to them being victims of an "Alice in Wonderland" factor completely beyond their control and wishes. Their Jan 23rd choice of party was dismissed in service to David Emerson's ego.

[geoffrey]

But that still doesn't really justify what those people are doing to the guy, does it?

No. But Emerson will have probably have to have a round the clock bodyguard soon (Campbell did for awhile - may still do so).

What kind of annoys me about these 'protests' is I really doubt that a large number of the protesters are actually Liberals. I suspect most are NDP looking for a cause.

To many, the party labels are secondary to them being victims of an "Alice in Wonderland" factor completely beyond their control and wishes. Their Jan 23rd choice of party was dismissed in service to David Emerson's ego.

How was their choice dismissed? They elected David Emerson, and David Emerson sits. I don't get it? Unless your still trying to create some convoluted approach saying that the candidate is meaningless to the party.

Hush up and enjoy your cabinet minister while it lasts, piss of Harper enough with your whining and he's sure to call that by-election for you. And then you won't have a cabinet minister for a long long time. Enjoy your days in non-representation, I know I enjoyed them for the last 12 years!

[newbie]

How can it be fraud, Newbie? We vote for a member of parliament, not for a party.

So then why have a party name beside the candidate? Seems to me parties have platforms and some people actually vote for a candidate based on those platforms. I have it both ways when the man I put an X to in the ballot box is elected to the represent his constituents as a member of the party beside his name. Anything less than that is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

[newbie]

Enjoy your days in non-representation, I know I enjoyed them for the last 12 years!

Cry me a freaking river. I'm a Liberal in Alberta. Do you know how long it's been since a Liberal Gov't has been in place here?

[August1991]

How can it be fraud, Newbie? We vote for a member of parliament, not for a party.

So then why have a party name beside the candidate? Seems to me parties have platforms and some people actually vote for a candidate based on those platforms. I have it both ways when the man I put an X to in the ballot box is elected to the represent his constituents as a member of the party beside his name. Anything less than that is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

IMV, you've touched the key point, Newbie.

I guess the party label is an advisory, but that's all. In fact, if the party label is important to voters, then voters should know where a candidate is situated wrt party policies. I wouldn't expect Jack Layton to cross over to the Tories any time soon.

I happen to think Harper is trying to create a system like the UK, France and the US where MPs are more independent. Harper's attempt to do this is confusing to people.

As to the protesters, I don't know much about BC politics but I can see why they would be mostly NDP supporters. They have every right to protest and Harper is going to have live with them and the media. Our ex-PM PM is happily laughing somewhere, relieved that someone else has to bear the burden of "running" the country.

I can understand why voters are POed, and my first reaction was that Emerson should ideally have resigned, or sat as a backbencher or as an independent. On second thought, I realized that if MPs are to have any relevance, they must be free to cross the floor.

----

I'll note the way Emerson became a cabinet minister. Harper phoned him up and asked him. I'll note too that Turner is still in caucus and we only have his description of how Harper tried to "discipline" him. I'm more distressed about Fortier. Competence and honesty aside, he hasn't been elected to anything.

I'm not saying the optics on all this good. They aren't. Some commentators have defended Harper by claiming that he is showing his ability to play "hardball" politics. Yeah, well...

It might help if Harper at some point explained what's going on here. Has anybody seen anything? When is Harper's next press conference?

[Riverwind]

So then why have a party name beside the candidate? Seems to me parties have platforms and some people actually vote for a candidate based on those platforms. I have it both ways when the man I put an X to in the ballot box is elected to the represent his constituents as a member of the party beside his name. Anything less than that is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

Legally speaking we vote for the candidate and the party the candidate belongs to is irrelevant. So you are wasting your time trying to make it sound like there was some criminal mis-doing here.

Frankly, I am wondering where these protesters were back in 2002 when the Conservative MP for Richmond defected to the Liberals. Made the national news for maybe one day. There was no hand wringing about about democracy being denied.

[shoop]

84 years, 173 days and counting ...

Cry me a freaking river. I'm a Liberal in Alberta. Do you know how long it's been since a Liberal Gov't has been in place here?

[na85]

So then why have a party name beside the candidate? Seems to me parties have platforms and some people actually vote for a candidate based on those platforms. I have it both ways when the man I put an X to in the ballot box is elected to the represent his constituents as a member of the party beside his name. Anything less than that is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

Legally speaking we vote for the candidate and the party the candidate belongs to is irrelevant. So you are wasting your time trying to make it sound like there was some criminal mis-doing here.

Frankly, I am wondering where these protesters were back in 2002 when the Conservative MP for Richmond defected to the Liberals. Made the national news for maybe one day. There was no hand wringing about about democracy being denied.

Just because it happened in 2002 and got next to no attention doesn't mean that the current situation is any less meritous. In 2002 I was 16 years old and not interested in politics. The circumstances were different, else there would have been a similar level of media attention.

Newbie raises a valid point: MPs run under a party banner because they either subscribe to or identify with the values and ideas put forth in said party's platform. Why run under a particular colour if you plan to switch sides later? Why not run as an independent? The fact is, in large cities it's not always possible for everyone to get to know their candidate personally.

[shoop]

A big part of why this has gotten *so* much attention is that Parliament isn't sitting and it started before the Olympics when nothng else was going on.

This thing has definitely been pushed off the front pages. Between the Olympics, the British soldiers beating those civilians, the hockey betting scandal and Cheney shooting his hunting partner this story will die down very quickly. In spite of the NDP-lead citizen protests to the contrary.

I gotta wonder why Harper didn't just name McKay Minister of DFAIT then bring Emerson in during the spring or fall?

Just because it happened in 2002 and got next to no attention doesn't mean that the current situation is any less meritous. In 2002 I was 16 years old and not interested in politics. The circumstances were different, else there would have been a similar level of media attention.