Coleman Hughes on race & "woke" identity politics

[Moonlight Graham]

Coleman Hughes demonstrates how to express and debate the problems with today's leftwing racial identity politics ("woke" ideology) using logic while remaining calm and respectful and finding common understandings where possible.  @Michael Hardner this is our guide to elevate discussion.

Here's he's confronted on The View:

On Bill Maher, where he finds disagreement and agreement with another reasonable person regarding police racial issues.  Great discussions!

Edited April 4 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

19 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Coleman Hughes demonstrates how to express and debate the problems with today's leftwing racial identity politics ("woke" ideology) using logic while remaining calm and respectful and finding common understandings where possible.  @Michael Hardner this is our guide to elevate discussion.

Here's he's confronted on The View:

On Bill Maher, where he finds disagreement and agreement with another reasonable person regarding police racial issues.  Great discussions!

1. I think I agree with the first guy, but two things:
- His message is not for a mass audience, it's not so much a moral message as it is directed at policy makers and a "public" discussion
- Probably shouldn't have used the term "call a spade a spade"

2. Love how Maher says "no other show will talk about this..." meanwhile The View had Hughes on... 
-Message is not for a mass audience either, and as such having an audience that APPLAUDS points is stupid.  I haven't watched this show because I find Maher to be a blowhard

I agree with the manner of discussion in both of these clips - and they're well positioned to inform a public of various sides of an issue.  Only thing I don't like is audience applauding points that they morally agree with...

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I think I agree with the first guy, but two things:
- His message is not for a mass audience, it's not so much a moral message as it is directed at policy makers and a "public" discussion
- Probably shouldn't have used the term "call a spade a spade"

2. Love how Maher says "no other show will talk about this..." meanwhile The View had Hughes on... 
-Message is not for a mass audience either, and as such having an audience that APPLAUDS points is stupid.  I haven't watched this show because I find Maher to be a blowhard

I agree with the manner of discussion in both of these clips - and they're well positioned to inform a public of various sides of an issue.  Only thing I don't like is audience applauding points that they morally agree with...

1.  How are the messages not for a mass audience?  What is wrong with saying "calling a spade a spade"?

2.  Audience applause is probably a bad format if the goal of a show is objective discussion.   The audience will typically side with the host because why would they show up if they didn't like the host?  So then remove the audience I guess.   Might work for The View, but Maher is also part comedy show so they want the laughs.

Maher has an ego but is one of the few moderate and reasonable political hosts on US TV

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  How are the messages not for a mass audience? 

2. What is wrong with saying "calling a spade a spade"?

3.  Audience applause is probably a bad format if the goal of a show is objective discussion.   The audience will typically side with the host because why would they show up if they didn't like the host?  So then remove the audience I guess.   Might work for The View, but Maher is also part comedy show so they want the laughs. Maher has an ego but is one of the few moderate and reasonable political hosts on US TV

1. Masses aren't public's, they don't think.  They only consume.

2. Spade is a pejorative for black person, like n*gger.

3. Still not sure how I feel about these shows.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Masses aren't public's, they don't think.  They only consume.

2. Spade is a pejorative for black person, like n*gger.

 

1.  But how does this answer my question.  How is this message not consumable by the masses, as opposed to identity politics messaging?

2. True, but that's not where the phrase comes from, it has ancient greek origins:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

"The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur against African Americans,^[15] which was not recorded until 1928.^"

Edited April 5 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  But how does this answer my question.  How is this message not consumable by the masses, as opposed to identity politics messaging?

2. True, but that's not where the phrase comes from, it has ancient greek origins:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

"The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur against African Americans,^[15] which was not recorded until 1928.^"

1. Because it requires too much thought.

2. Still.  People don't use the word niggardly anymore either.

...

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Because it requires too much thought.

2. Still.  People don't use the word niggardly anymore either.

...

1.  Not any more than woke theory though.  I mean what he's saying is what most people believed from at least the 60's (MLK) until 10 years ago.

2.  Well i still use "spade a spade" and I don't get looks and so do many others since it's a common phrase, nor have i ever heard a black person referred to as a spade.  Either way, this guy is black so he can use both haha.

[Yakuda]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:28 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. I think I agree with the first guy, but two things:
- His message is not for a mass audience, it's not so much a moral message as it is directed at policy makers and a "public" discussion
- Probably shouldn't have used the term "call a spade a spade"

2. Love how Maher says "no other show will talk about this..." meanwhile The View had Hughes on... 
-Message is not for a mass audience either, and as such having an audience that APPLAUDS points is stupid.  I haven't watched this show because I find Maher to be a blowhard

I agree with the manner of discussion in both of these clips - and they're well positioned to inform a public of various sides of an issue.  Only thing I don't like is audience applauding points that they morally agree with...

1. Why not use the phrase "call a spade a spade"? Are we really afraid of words? Clearly we are and thats why thinks are the way they are. 

2. Agreed. I think Maher is a buffoon but he has called out both sides of the political aisle and we need MUCH MORE of that. What I love is when leftists want to dismiss him. That's how I know he's struck a nerve with them. 

People these days are mostly low intelligence thanks to public education 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Yakuda said:

1. Why not use the phrase "call a spade a spade"? Are we really afraid of words? Clearly we are and thats why thinks are the way they are. 

2. Agreed. I think Maher is a buffoon but he has called out both sides of the political aisle and we need MUCH MORE of that. What I love is when leftists want to dismiss him. That's how I know he's struck a nerve with them. 

3. People these days are mostly low intelligence thanks to public education 

1. We're not afraid of words. We just don't want to make people feel bad. Same reason we don't say niggardly anymore.

2. A lot of people though have to make up stuff so that they can pretend to be both sides.  I don't think both sides is a good way to be either. Culturally conservative in these times is the best

3. Intelligence doesn't change over time, knowledge does. And if you think you don't have enough knowledge to understand the issues , my response is that nobody does.

[Yakuda]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. We're not afraid of words. We just don't want to make people feel bad. Same reason we don't say niggardly anymore.

2. A lot of people though have to make up stuff so that they can pretend to be both sides.  I don't think both sides is a good way to be either. Culturally conservative in these times is the best

3. Intelligence doesn't change over time, knowledge does. And if you think you don't have enough knowledge to understand the issues , my response is that nobody does.

1. Right. We never want people to "feel bad" unless those people are people with agree with 

2. Sounds like an excuse to ignore things you don't like.

3. You don't suppose "knowledge" in and of itself is necessarily a good thing do you? Seems to me lots of people have lots of "knowledge" and most of it is useless. 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Yakuda said:

1. Right. We never want people to "feel bad" unless those people are people with agree with 

2. Sounds like an excuse to ignore things you don't like.

3. You don't suppose "knowledge" in and of itself is necessarily a good thing do you? Seems to me lots of people have lots of "knowledge" and most of it is useless. 

1. I generally don't want people to feel bad, but I also fall into insults sometimes admittedly.  I DO however use words with purpose and consideration.  If you want to cause people to be confused and possibly offended, ask a black person if he is niggardly with his opinions.
2. Not sure how that follows.  It seems to me that 'both sidesism' is more like that, if that's what you mean.
3. Knowledge is a good thing, to my mind.  Although who wouldn't want to be Adam/Eve or Adam/Steve I suppose... eating apples, looking at Eve's bazooms... chatting up the snakes.... How to weigh the value of knowledge objectively is an interesting question btw.

[Yakuda]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I generally don't want people to feel bad, but I also fall into insults sometimes admittedly.  I DO however use words with purpose and consideration.  If you want to cause people to be confused and possibly offended, ask a black person if he is niggardly with his opinions.
2. Not sure how that follows.  It seems to me that 'both sidesism' is more like that, if that's what you mean.
3. Knowledge is a good thing, to my mind.  Although who wouldn't want to be Adam/Eve or Adam/Steve I suppose... eating apples, looking at Eve's bazooms... chatting up the snakes.... How to weigh the value of knowledge objectively is an interesting question btw.

1. I dont want people to feel bad either but I dont control how someone else feels. It's also the case that some times we have to say things that might make people feel bad because what's said needs to be said. Have you noticed that not too many people seem to give a s**t ufbtheir words make donald trump feel bad? 

2. I suspected as much 

3. Well I think it's patently obvious that not all knowledge is equally valuable but maybe I'm just old school. On top of that knowledge without action useless whether it's good or bad knowledge. 

[Michael Hardner]

56 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. I dont want people to feel bad either but I dont control how someone else feels. It's also the case that some times we have to say things that might make people feel bad because what's said needs to be said. Have you noticed that not too many people seem to give a s**t ufbtheir words make donald trump feel bad? 

2. I suspected as much 

3. Well I think it's patently obvious that not all knowledge is equally valuable but maybe I'm just old school. On top of that knowledge without action useless whether it's good or bad knowledge. 

1. That's a Dodge. You're accountable for your actions. Everyone is.  I don't admonish people for making fun of Trudeau or other public figures. I think that's a different thing than talking to someone directly.

2.3. ok

[Yakuda]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. That's a Dodge. You're accountable for your actions. Everyone is.  I don't admonish people for making fun of Trudeau or other public figures. I think that's a different thing than talking to someone directly.

2.3. ok

It's not a dodge it's a fact. I am accountable for MY words but how you react to them emotionally, mentally behaviorally or cognitively. This constant blaming of other people for your problems is nonsense. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

It's not a dodge it's a fact. I am accountable for MY words but how you react to them emotionally, mentally behaviorally or cognitively. This constant blaming of other people for your problems is nonsense. 

Right but do you think that you're not accountable for insulting someone?  Harassment?  Hate speech?

 

Words mean things.

[Yakuda]

53 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Right but do you think that you're not accountable for insulting someone?  Harassment?  Hate speech?

 

Words mean things.

What's do you mean by "accountable"? Is insulting someone a crime? Harassment isn't good. "Hate speech" is just a fancier way of saying it's "insulting". Hate speech is BS 

Words used to mean things now they are weapons. 

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

What's do you mean by "accountable"? Is insulting someone a crime? Harassment isn't good. "Hate speech" is just a fancier way of saying it's "insulting". Hate speech is BS 

Words used to mean things now they are weapons. 

I had a post disappear. 

I just mean that you can't feign innocence if you use words that normally will be taken as insults. So you can own that and not say.... Why should I not use this term? The reason you would use it would be to insult. If you want to do that then that's your option. 

 

The rules of social discourse haven't changed since the first insult shrieked by some chimp 

 

[Yakuda]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I had a post disappear. 

I just mean that you can't feign innocence if you use words that normally will be taken as insults. So you can own that and not say.... Why should I not use this term? The reason you would use it would be to insult. If you want to do that then that's your option. 

 

The rules of social discourse haven't changed since the first insult shrieked by some chimp 

 

I'm not feigning innocence I'm saying I don't control how you feel about my words. If I could control it I would make you happy to hear whatever I said. I cant do that so to say I insult you is a ridiculous. Now should I say it if I know you don't like it? That's a different matter altogether. This is the problem your hurt feelings somehow outweigh the right of people to say things you don't like. BTW people can be "insulted" by just about anything so I'm not very impressed when people say they're insulted. 

[Michael Hardner]

22 hours ago, Yakuda said:

I'm not feigning innocence I'm saying I don't control how you feel about my words. If I could control it I would make you happy to hear whatever I said. I cant do that so to say I insult you is a ridiculous. Now should I say it if I know you don't like it? That's a different matter altogether. This is the problem your hurt feelings somehow outweigh the right of people to say things you don't like. BTW people can be "insulted" by just about anything so I'm not very impressed when people say they're insulted. 

I don't understand what we are talking about here.  Nobody is talking about rights.   This seems like an attempt to make this question more complicated than it is:

"1. Why not use the phrase "call a spade a spade" "

A: You don't use it if you don't want to potentially insult someone.  

If you want to offend, go ahead.

 

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't understand what we are talking about here.  Nobody is talking about rights.   This seems like an attempt to make this question more complicated than it is:

"1. Why not use the phrase "call a spade a spade" "

A: You don't use it if you don't want to potentially insult someone.  

If you want to offend, go ahead.

 

It's not complicated at all. If you are insulted by the phrase, call a spade a spade, thats really nothing more than a you problem isn't it?  

Tell me why I should care if you're insulted? Would you be justified in punching me in the nose if I used a word that insulted you? Should you not be charged with assault if you did punch me in the nose because I used a word that insulted you? 

Edited April 25 by Yakuda

[Michael Hardner]

57 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. It's not complicated at all. If you are insulted by the phrase, call a spade a spade, thats really nothing more than a you problem isn't it?  

2. Tell me why I should care if you're insulted?

3. Would you be justified in punching me in the nose if I used a word that insulted you?

4. Should you not be charged with assault if you did punch me in the nose because I used a word that insulted you? 

1. Why is it a problem ?  Is it a problem to find things insulting ?  I don't think it is.  Is it a problem to miscommunicate ?  Maybe ?  So who is charged with fixing that ?  Maybe both sides.

2. 3. 4. I don't have time to teach you how to be a human being, sorry.

[Yakuda]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Why is it a problem ?  Is it a problem to find things insulting ?  I don't think it is.  Is it a problem to miscommunicate ?  Maybe ?  So who is charged with fixing that ?  Maybe both sides.

2. 3. 4. I don't have time to teach you how to be a human being, sorry.

1. Copy and paste where I said it's a problem if people find things are insulting. What I actually said was it's the person problem if they are insulted by words not mine. People can be insulted all they like but I'm not sure how that should impede what words I use. Are you entitled to living life without insult or offense? 

2. 3. 4. This is akin to, "If in have to explain it you can't understand it". The translation is, "I have no explanation". So you think if I insult someone they would be justified in punching me in the nose and should be free from prosecution for assault  for punching me in the nose because I insulted them. 

Edited April 25 by Yakuda

[Michael Hardner]

 

34 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. Copy and paste where I said it's a problem if people find things are insulting. 
2. Are you entitled to living life without insult or offense? 
3. This is akin to, "If in have to explain it you can't understand it".
4. The translation is, "I have no explanation".
5. So you think if I insult someone they would be justified in punching me in the nose and should be free from prosecution for assault  for punching me in the nose because I insulted them. 

1. "Then it's a you problem isn't it"
2. It's a boring strawman... the original question was asked by you and answered by me.  Are you just doing this because you don't want to go to bed and want to stay up ? 
3. Or maybe.... you already know the answer.
4. I don't.  You have to learn how to be a person all by yourself.
5. No.

Ok, that's enough questions... go to bed....

*Switches off light... Peppa Pig nightlight comes on*

[Yakuda]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

1. "Then it's a you problem isn't it"
2. It's a boring strawman... the original question was asked by you and answered by me.  Are you just doing this because you don't want to go to bed and want to stay up ? 
3. Or maybe.... you already know the answer.
4. I don't.  You have to learn how to be a person all by yourself.
5. No.

Ok, that's enough questions... go to bed....

*Switches off light... Peppa Pig nightlight comes on*

 Very good. If you're insulted by my words that's a you problem. I'm not telling you you shouldn't be insulted Im saying it's your problem not mine if you are insulted. 

I certainly wouldn't learn to be an adult human being from you. A child maybe but nothing more. 

Is it nighttime where I am? It's what you think you know that gets people like you in trouble.