Our Border Guards Ran Away

[tml12]

We've had this debate before, it's actually a "no brainer". Arm the border gaurds, give them the tools they require to accomplish thier jobs safely. If the biggest obsticle in arming them is training, then train them whats the big deal, it can be done by any policing agency be RCMP or local. In a short time.

This is another mess left by our last goverment, and one i hope will be solved quickly by the present one. Nobody should have to put thier lives at risk unnessicarily for this Country. But then again when have we as Canadians been concern about lives when compared to a dollar.

As someone who crosses the border more than 10 times per year and who has worked with border guards in different areas there is no doubt in my mind border guards need to be armed.

This Eastern Canadian obsession that guns are bad and the idiotic Liberal proposal to ban guns are just examples of leftist ignorance.

Train them, arm them, and secure this country's borders NOW.

Agreed. I see it even more than you do. I cross twice a day. One there and once back.

If we don't they're going to keep walking off the job until they get it. About once every week the people at the border walk off the job in protest.

And I can imagine the traffic...especially if you need to do it everyday. I hope PM Harper gets them armed soon.

[Wilber]

We've had this debate before, it's actually a "no brainer". Arm the border gaurds, give them the tools they require to accomplish thier jobs safely. If the biggest obsticle in arming them is training, then train them whats the big deal, it can be done by any policing agency be RCMP or local. In a short time.

This is another mess left by our last goverment, and one i hope will be solved quickly by the present one. Nobody should have to put thier lives at risk unnessicarily for this Country. But then again when have we as Canadians been concern about lives when compared to a dollar.

Absolutely.

In the Fraser Valley there is a 80 KM stretch of border with close to 2 million Canadians living on one side of it. 25 Km of that is the responsibility of the Abbotsford police department. We have no regular military ground forces in BC. All there is for border security are the unarmed customs officers and the police forces of the municipalities along that border. Those police forces are a mixture of local and RCMP detachments but even in the case of the RCMP they are bought and paid for by the municipalities and any time they have to deal with border issues, it takes away from policing in their communities. This was another element of Martin's downloading Federal responsibilities to the cities during the nineties. The Americans know all this. Is it any wonder they didn't take our former government seriously when it comes to securing our borders.

One of the US police spokesmen commenting on yesterdays incident said that there was no way that they were going to let those guys cross the border because they might never get them back.

[Black Dog]

Anyone bother to read the article?

U.S. authorities closed the border at Blaine, Wash., on Tuesday after an exchange of gunfire on the American side between border guards, police and two murder suspects from California.

Absolutely nothing in the article about the Canuck guards "running away".

[Wilber]

Anyone bother to read the article?

U.S. authorities closed the border at Blaine, Wash., on Tuesday after an exchange of gunfire on the American side between border guards, police and two murder suspects from California.

Absolutely nothing in the article about the Canuck guards "running away".

I don't believe anyone "ran away".

According to the media here, they walked off the job after the incident.

[politika]

Check this out:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060124/w012498.html

American murders with guns were being chased towards Canada, and our border guards packed up for the day and left because they were scared.

I hope Harper arms these people with not only sidearms, but whatever weaponry they need to defend our country. How sad is it that our law enforcement people have to run away in fear?

I don't blame the border guards, don't worry, I'd be running too. Lets give these people the tools to do their job or lets just stop pretending to be soverign.

I completly agree, and right after this happaned Harper made a promise to arm are border guards. I think this will be granted within a matter of months and should not take that long.

by the way I would have ran as well. But if I had a gun I would gladly stand on guard for thee

[Lost2]

If the problem is this routine, it would make far more sense to create and task an RCMP or even military group to police the border, rather than expecting civil servants hired to check for contraband, collect tax and check passports to become a SWAT team.

Long before 9-11 most european countries used either military or national police at border crossings. It makes far more sense and is far safer for all concerned to provide full time professional armed support rather than arming customs officers who weren't hired for it and are not trained for it. Customs officers have a real purpose. If we need security use professionals, don't make it part of their job as they will never be as well trained or experienced as professional police or military personnel and it will actually impede their real function.

I hope this won't become one of those idiot ideas that amounts to "Hey! We got these guys there already. Just give them guns and save money instead of providing real security." Its a recipe for disaster and some things should not be considered just because they're cheaper.

I'd agree... but it won't happen in Canada. The military policing inside our borders isn't favourable to anyone. The RCMP is so short staffed and underfunded already, that this is unfeasiable. The RCMP needs years of rebuilding before it can be where it wants to, adding a huge other mandate will only compound this.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to recruit 10,000 police officers? Can't happen overnight, we need a solution now, not 10 or 15 years from now. These people are leaving our borders open because they fear for their lives.

I don't disagree with you, but I just don't think any other way is feasiable right now.

One way they can start this is to scrap the gun registry and use the money to recruit more police officers and arm them properly. Also get the judges to forget their political agenda and hit people who use guns in their offences the stiffest sentence on the books.

[justcrowing]

Border guards have wanted to be armed for the past 35+ years. Summer help recruitment are University Students.

Job requirements, etc. ................

Salary range:

$ 43,928 to $ 48,558 annually

Applicants should be aware of the possible need to have and maintain a certain level of fitness in order to perform the duties of a Customs Inspector.

Failure to meet the minimum requirements for any of the training courses mentioned will result in termination or demotion.

The pool established as a result of this selection process may be used to staff positions on a full-time, term or permanent basis.

Conditions of Employment:

Possession of a valid driver's license or personal mobility to a degree normally associated with the possession of a valid driver's license within the limits of the CCRA Travel Policy.

-Willingness to travel

-Overtime required

-Willingness to work a variable work schedule, 7 days/24 hours, weekends as well as statutory holidays

-Willingness to operate a government vehicle

-Willingness to maintain and wear a uniform

-Willingness to use protective equipment.

Conditions of Appointment:

Successful candidates must undertake and successfully complete an extensive training program for new recruits. This will include eight weeks of training at the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency College . Candidates must also complete the Officer Powers training, as well as Use of Force training . The Use of Force training requires significant physical exertion.

Candidates must pass the second language test achieving a BBC rating. For more information on second language requirements please consult the Public Service web site at http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/ppc/sle_pg_01_e.htm

Reliability/Security:Enhanced with Airport Access

Job description and duties:

Protection of the Canadian society and the Canadian economy. Contributions to the competitiveness of Canadian business and facilitation of legitimate international travel and trade through the efficient and effective processing of the movement of people, goods and conveyances across the Canadian border.

[tml12]

Border guards have wanted to be armed for the past 35+ years. Summer help recruitment are University Students.

Job requirements, etc. ................

Salary range:

$ 43,928 to $ 48,558 annually

Applicants should be aware of the possible need to have and maintain a certain level of fitness in order to perform the duties of a Customs Inspector.

Failure to meet the minimum requirements for any of the training courses mentioned will result in termination or demotion.

The pool established as a result of this selection process may be used to staff positions on a full-time, term or permanent basis.

Conditions of Employment:

Possession of a valid driver's license or personal mobility to a degree normally associated with the possession of a valid driver's license within the limits of the CCRA Travel Policy.

-Willingness to travel

-Overtime required

-Willingness to work a variable work schedule, 7 days/24 hours, weekends as well as statutory holidays

-Willingness to operate a government vehicle

-Willingness to maintain and wear a uniform

-Willingness to use protective equipment.

Conditions of Appointment:

Successful candidates must undertake and successfully complete an extensive training program for new recruits. This will include eight weeks of training at the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency College . Candidates must also complete the Officer Powers training, as well as Use of Force training . The Use of Force training requires significant physical exertion.

Candidates must pass the second language test achieving a BBC rating. For more information on second language requirements please consult the Public Service web site at http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/ppc/sle_pg_01_e.htm

Reliability/Security:Enhanced with Airport Access

Job description and duties:

Protection of the Canadian society and the Canadian economy. Contributions to the competitiveness of Canadian business and facilitation of legitimate international travel and trade through the efficient and effective processing of the movement of people, goods and conveyances across the Canadian border.

They should be trained to use them and then use them...why not?

[uOttawaMan]

I'm a University Student, one of the the 30-40 or so in my region that Customs (now Border Services) hires every year. The training involved is 5 weeks for summer students, including use of force training.

So if we are to be armed, we need more training time, in an already short work period.

[fixer1]

I am all for arming the Customs People at Border crossings, as long as the proper training and phsycological testing has been done. I do not see there being a large need to use the weapons, but when the need arises it is not something you can say "oops I can not stop an armed criminal here"

I guess it all stems at a growing population of city dwellers that can not see the need for firearms for any reason. Most country people know it is good to have a small caliber rifle to deal with varmints and other possible animals who could spread rabies and many other things. In the country you learn to be seld sufficient. Most child are taught hunting and fishing and general woosmanship including respect for firearms. This is where we find the biggest difference between city and rural mindsets.

If border guards were armed what is it, that people would be afraid of? Do you think they will go postal one day? Or are you against guns completely. In the Bahamas they has a ban on all guns, and if you use one in a crime there are predetermined sentences. It is something like 10 years for having the gun in the commission of a crime, plus 2 years for every bullet in the gun. And they do stick to it. So you will seldom see guns used there in crimes, and if you do you seldom see a second offender. Canada could easily do the same. But person al ownership of rifles and hunting weapons should never be disallowed, as Canada is a country where wilderness is still the largest portion of our nation, and it is impossible for Police and game wardens to be there to stop some animals from attacking people.

So arming border guards whose job it is to seek out the bad guys, and then ask them to deal with them with while unarmed, is not something we should be doing. Teach them how to handle weapons train them and test them, and then let them do their job.

[Army Guy]

Uottawaman:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

There are other ways as well that can improve thier safety, as well as improve the security of our borders, such as reinforcing structures, installing bullet proof glass, Panick Gates to seal of roads. All can be done without our borders looking like fort apache.

[uOttawaMan]

Uottawaman:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

There are other ways as well that can improve thier safety, as well as improve the security of our borders, such as reinforcing structures, installing bullet proof glass, Panick Gates to seal of roads. All can be done without our borders looking like fort apache.

We are already equipped with pepper spray and a baton. What I'm saying is this, students make up a massive part of Border Services summer work force.

So either: A) No more students working the actual border crossings, which means you need to hire a hella lot of part time "professionals" because you cant hire full time guards, they are just taking there vacation time in the summer, there is no need for more guards.

or Stricter hiring practices and training would need to be in place. Training a university student to use a gun is no different that training a fresh recruit into the Armed Forces in the use of firearms. Just because they are younger doesnt mean they cant handle it, they just need proper training, same as their "experienced " counterparts would need, because none of them are ready for guns at the moment either.

The problem there lies, ending school on April 30th, training runs into mid-May before students hit the job. And thats a shortened program, the reason why students do not have the authority to arrest.

If you tack on firearms training (to go with the safe handling and discharge of fireams) training we already have to do, it would be probbably close to June before students started work, 2 months after they were hired. Leaving them just over 3 months to work on the actual job, June-Labour Day.

This is a problem that cannot be solved quickly , they have to do some serious planning on how this would affect border services.

[Wilber]

Uottawaman:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

There are other ways as well that can improve thier safety, as well as improve the security of our borders, such as reinforcing structures, installing bullet proof glass, Panick Gates to seal of roads. All can be done without our borders looking like fort apache.

We are already equipped with pepper spray and a baton. What I'm saying is this, students make up a massive part of Border Services summer work force.

So either: A) No more students working the actual border crossings, which means you need to hire a hella lot of part time "professionals" because you cant hire full time guards, they are just taking there vacation time in the summer, there is no need for more guards.

or Stricter hiring practices and training would need to be in place. Training a university student to use a gun is no different that training a fresh recruit into the Armed Forces in the use of firearms. Just because they are younger doesnt mean they cant handle it, they just need proper training, same as their "experienced " counterparts would need, because none of them are ready for guns at the moment either.

The problem there lies, ending school on April 30th, training runs into mid-May before students hit the job. And thats a shortened program, the reason why students do not have the authority to arrest.

If you tack on firearms training (to go with the safe handling and discharge of fireams) training we already have to do, it would be probbably close to June before students started work, 2 months after they were hired. Leaving them just over 3 months to work on the actual job, June-Labour Day.

This is a problem that cannot be solved quickly , they have to do some serious planning on how this would affect border services.

As a resident of a border community who's police department is regularly called to the border to handle problems and is the only agency available to patrol the Canadian side of a 25 KM stretch of border that has a road on each side separated with nothing but a shallow ditch, I am tired of having this country's border security paid for out of my property taxes. Give it back to the Federal Government to whom it belongs.

[Hicksey]

Uottawaman:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

There are other ways as well that can improve thier safety, as well as improve the security of our borders, such as reinforcing structures, installing bullet proof glass, Panick Gates to seal of roads. All can be done without our borders looking like fort apache.

Does everyone think that they're going to be so irresponsible to put an untraied student out in a booth with a weapon? Students have no place in the booth or out where harm can befall upon them. And in my experience I've never seen one in that position.

People that oppose it are just making up reasons not to allow it at this point.

[Army Guy]

uOttawaMan:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

My piont was this if students are to be armed then they would need the wpns training. Training someone to use a pistol does not take months or weeks, you might at the very most add 2 weeks to your training time and that would be a very intensive training period. That being said are the RCMP (volenteers part timers) armed, last i heard they were not.

We are already equipped with pepper spray and a baton. What I'm saying is this, students make up a massive part of Border Services summer work force.

This would all that would be needed if you were working with a full time ARMED person. If the crossing is to dangerous to allow this partnership, then perhaps using students to fill these postions should be looked at. And more full time postions added.

Border services is no different than any other department when it comes to summer holidays. Better planning on thier part would be required to ensure that there was an adquate number of full time gaurds available to handle any situation that may come up.

Hicksey:

Does everyone think that they're going to be so irresponsible to put an untraied student out in a booth with a weapon? Students have no place in the booth or out where harm can befall upon them. And in my experience I've never seen one in that position.

That was not my piont, i was responding to Uottawaman post that wpns training would add to his training time. my response was without this training it would be a disaster waiting to happen.

And yes our government has acted irresponsiable, for not allowing our border gaurds to be armed along time ago, for not ensuring they had the proper equipment to do there job safely. And i did say students should be regulated to performing tasks that do not require them to be armed.

People that oppose it are just making up reasons not to allow it at this point

If you had read all the posts you'd find that i did say i was for arming our border services.

[Hicksey]

uOttawaMan:

Having a part time student armed without having the proper training is a disaster waiting to happen. But there are many diffent options such as leaving those part timers unarmed,paired with an experianced officer that is. There are many diffent forms of non lethal wpns available for students to carry such as pepper spray, a spray foam etc. Or just delegate them to other tasks that do not require them to be armed.

My piont was this if students are to be armed then they would need the wpns training. Training someone to use a pistol does not take months or weeks, you might at the very most add 2 weeks to your training time and that would be a very intensive training period. That being said are the RCMP (volenteers part timers) armed, last i heard they were not.

We are already equipped with pepper spray and a baton. What I'm saying is this, students make up a massive part of Border Services summer work force.

This would all that would be needed if you were working with a full time ARMED person. If the crossing is to dangerous to allow this partnership, then perhaps using students to fill these postions should be looked at. And more full time postions added.

Border services is no different than any other department when it comes to summer holidays. Better planning on thier part would be required to ensure that there was an adquate number of full time gaurds available to handle any situation that may come up.

Hicksey:

Does everyone think that they're going to be so irresponsible to put an untraied student out in a booth with a weapon? Students have no place in the booth or out where harm can befall upon them. And in my experience I've never seen one in that position.

That was not my piont, i was responding to Uottawaman post that wpns training would add to his training time. my response was without this training it would be a disaster waiting to happen.

And yes our government has acted irresponsiable, for not allowing our border gaurds to be armed along time ago, for not ensuring they had the proper equipment to do there job safely. And i did say students should be regulated to performing tasks that do not require them to be armed.

People that oppose it are just making up reasons not to allow it at this point

If you had read all the posts you'd find that i did say i was for arming our border services.

I was agreeing with you actually. I must have not picked the right words. My point was that everyone disagreeing with you and I, saying that we ought not arm our border guards, were seemingly grasping at straws to come up with reasons to support their position.

Considering we live next door to a nation that allows their citizens to arm themselves, I've always figured this was a no-brainer.

And to whomever suggested batons and pepper spray, pa-leaze. Explain how either can protect a person from an impending gunshot. Unless you're right on top of the person you have no recourse. And even then, an agressive move could get you shot.

[uOttawaMan]

I was agreeing with you actually. I must have not picked the right words. My point was that everyone disagreeing with you and I, saying that we ought not arm our border guards, were seemingly grasping at straws to come up with reasons to support their position.

Considering we live next door to a nation that allows their citizens to arm themselves, I've always figured this was a no-brainer.

And to whomever suggested batons and pepper spray, pa-leaze. Explain how either can protect a person from an impending gunshot. Unless you're right on top of the person you have no recourse. And even then, an agressive move could get you shot.

The fact is , a baton , pepper spray, and a kevlar vest are on the whole usless unless we are defending ourselves against someone who is unarmed or has a knife. Any caliber of weapon is far beyond our self-defense measures.

[shoop]

You probably meant *armed* and not *unarmed*.

Fair. The equipment you mentioned, and proper training, should be more than enough to deal with an assailant with a knife.

Regadless, good work in arming the border guards!

The fact is , a baton , pepper spray, and a kevlar vest are on the whole usless unless we are defending ourselves against someone who is unarmed or has a knife. Any caliber of weapon is far beyond our self-defense measures.

[geoffrey]

You probably meant *armed* and not *unarmed*.

Fair. The equipment you mentioned, and proper training, should be more than enough to deal with an assailant with a knife.

Regadless, good work in arming the border guards!

The fact is , a baton , pepper spray, and a kevlar vest are on the whole usless unless we are defending ourselves against someone who is unarmed or has a knife. Any caliber of weapon is far beyond our self-defense measures.

I think he meant unarmed and you read it wrong.