the way to heaven, abolish money

[User]

11 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

There is no difference between your free market economy and the gift economy except that the gift economy is easier since it doesn't use money, if you disagree tell me why or shut up.

Its so much easier... yet you can't answer any questions about how it works when asked. 

Let's try this one again... what happens when everyone wants a Lamborgini?

How do people save for retirement?

How do people prioritize their wants and needs? Lots of people want to go on a fancy cruise ship, but most can't afford to do so, so they must sacrifice, save, or do something different... how does a gift economy account for that?

How does a gift economy deal the most basic fundamentals of scarcity of goods and services?

You can't or won't answer any of these questions. 

Telling me to shut up? How is a gift economy supposed to work when people like you exist and can't even gift a nice discussion? Why would you be trusted to gift enough to compensate for what you are taking from everyone else?

 

[Gaétan]

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Let's try this one again... what happens when everyone wants a Lamborgini?

We just make lamborgini then

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How do people save for retirement?

There is no need to save for retirement since we abolish money, we don't need money to get what we need it is provided by working voluntarily.

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How do people prioritize their wants and needs? Lots of people want to go on a fancy cruise ship, but most can't afford to do so, so they must sacrifice, save, or do something different... how does a gift economy account for that?

It is free of charge in the country then when tourists come we ask for a depot in US dollars or euros and with that money we finance expences in others countries made by canadians.

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How does a gift economy deal the most basic fundamentals of scarcity of goods and services?

We produce products for ourself and the surplus we produce we export it in other countries and we charge them in US or Euros and with that money we buy from other countries what we don't produce.

 

[User]

2 hours ago, Gaétan said:

We just make lamborgini then

There is no need to save for retirement since we abolish money, we don't need money to get what we need it is provided by working voluntarily.

It is free of charge in the country then when tourists come we ask for a depot in US dollars or euros and with that money we finance expences in others countries made by canadians.

We produce products for ourself and the surplus we produce we export it in other countries and we charge them in US or Euros and with that money we buy from other countries what we don't produce.

 

Why is it everyone doesn't drive a Lamborgini today? -They do not produce enough value through their current work to afford one. 

So why would a gift economy be different? Who is this "we" that is going to be making Hundreds of millions of Lamborginis so everyone can have one?

If someone did not save anything for retirement, they have nothing to gift in retirement. Do they just take whatever they want? What limits them from taking more in retirement than they ever gifted when working? How do you account for any of that? How does a gift economy account for people today who save more so they can enjoy retirement more vs those who did not save anything at all and will barely make ends meet in retirement?

You are completely not answering how people prioritize wants vs needs in a gift economy when goods and services are scarce. 
 

[Gaétan]

43 minutes ago, User said:

Why is it everyone doesn't drive a Lamborgini today? -They do not produce enough value through their current work to afford one. 

So why would a gift economy be different? Who is this "we" that is going to be making Hundreds of millions of Lamborginis so everyone can have one?

If someone did not save anything for retirement, they have nothing to gift in retirement. Do they just take whatever they want? What limits them from taking more in retirement than they ever gifted when working? How do you account for any of that? How does a gift economy account for people today who save more so they can enjoy retirement more vs those who did not save anything at all and will barely make ends meet in retirement?

You are completely not answering how people prioritize wants vs needs in a gift economy when goods and services are scarce. 
 

Why every one would like a Lamborgini? You said that but it doesn't correspond to the reality. People in retirement will be supported as the same as they are supported in money economy. People when they don't pay for don't take more they need, simple psychology, they take more when we are in a money system and they can afford it. Just see Bill Gates, he takes more like boats, swimming pools, big castle because he has a lot of money no matter what people may think, same with other rich.

[User]

1 minute ago, Gaétan said:

Why every one would like a Lamborgini? You said that but it doesn't correspond to the reality. People in retirement will be supported as the same as they are supported in money economy. People when they don't pay for don't take more they need, simple psychology, they take more when we are in a money system and they can afford it. Just see Bill Gates, he takes more like boats, swimming pools, big castle because he has a lot of money no matter what people may think, same with other rich.

In an economy, goods and services are a finite thing. There is only so much produced and a limited amount of people to provide services, which means services are limited. 

In a free market economy, value is what drives an individual's wants and needs. Value is subjective. The reason why everyone doesn't have a Lamborgini (or any other luxury sports car) is because they can't afford one. People make choices every day of their life regarding the priority of what they value more. 

Example: Someone might love to golf, bowl, and collect coins. However, they can't afford to do them all. They can only afford to do one activity, because they have to work most of the time. So, they choose to value golf. However, they want to do more, so they need to make more money, so they look for a better job, get more skills, and now they have enough time to Golf and Bowl, but they still had to choose to cut back on a few other expenses during the month, like they dropped their Cable TV and Netflix subscriptions. 

All these decisions are made based on how much $$$$ someone has and makes... and is tracked in a budget, they have an account. 

A gift economy answers none of these questions. There is no gift account, there is no ability for people to save or make decisions based on their wants and needs that is reflective of what they produce. 

You have it completely backwards, people earn $$$$ and make decisions on how much they have. People who earn more $$$ can exchange it for more things. In a gift economy, nothing you have said explains why someone can't simply take as much as they want, because they no longer have to prioritize needs. 

Bill Gates can buy a yacht because he can afford it... in a gift economy, what tells someone they can't afford something?

[Gaétan]

20 hours ago, User said:

Bill Gates can buy a yacht because he can afford it... in a gift economy, what tells someone they can't afford something?

Your brain, what you can afford, is governed by your work and the work of other members of the community, it's the same in a money society but the non-money society is more egalitarian.

[User]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Your brain, what you can afford, is governed by your work and the work of other members of the community, it's the same in a money society but the non-money society is more egalitarian.

How do you track what you can afford in a gift society? 

In a money society... we have money. Money is simply a token to represent the value someone has created through their work and creations. 

 

[Gaétan]

4 hours ago, User said:

How do you track what you can afford in a gift society? 

In a money society... we have money. Money is simply a token to represent the value someone has created through their work and creations. 

 

There is no currency calculation of your work, what you can get depends on your choices and those of your community. It may be that you want a Tesla, but if those cars aren't available because they're junk, you won't get one.

[User]

6 hours ago, Gaétan said:

There is no currency calculation of your work, what you can get depends on your choices and those of your community. It may be that you want a Tesla, but if those cars aren't available because they're junk, you won't get one.

This is gibberish. If there is no way to calculate the value of your work... how does anyone know what they can afford? Just saying it depends on your choices and community is not an answer. How does that work?

 

[Gaétan]

1 hour ago, User said:

This is gibberish. If there is no way to calculate the value of your work... how does anyone know what they can afford? Just saying it depends on your choices and community is not an answer. How does that work?

 

Calculating the value of your labor is a devil's plan, in a world without money the value of your labor is the same no matter how hard you labor:

Mt 

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Edited May 1, 2024 by Gaétan

[User]

58 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

Calculating the value of your labor is a devil's plan, in a world without money the value of your labor is the same no matter how hard you labor:

Mt 

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

So, you can't answer the questions and resort to random scripture instead. 

Is your argument that you want to impose a Christian theocracy on everyone now? I do not understand why you are quoting scripture. Never mind, the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with not having value to your labor. The point of this scripture here was that you should not be envious of what others get paid, or to the larger point, that God's gift of salvation is freely given to all regardless of when they seek it. That his followers may come young or old before they die. 

What does that have to do with a gift economy? 
 

[Gaétan]

8 hours ago, User said:

So, you can't answer the questions and resort to random scripture instead. 

Is your argument that you want to impose a Christian theocracy on everyone now? I do not understand why you are quoting scripture. Never mind, the scripture you quoted has nothing to do with not having value to your labor. The point of this scripture here was that you should not be envious of what others get paid, or to the larger point, that God's gift of salvation is freely given to all regardless of when they seek it. That his followers may come young or old before they die. 

What does that have to do with a gift economy? 
 

You must not take this Gospel text in an imaginative sense, but as it is. Your work is paid the same in a cashless system as in the kingdom of God. So no matter how hard you work, whether you work hard or not, we are all entitled to the same rewards, there is no discrimination between hard work or not. So no matter what you do as work your reward is the same as everybody. As exemple if your reward in a moneyless society are house, food, clothes, vacation, time off, and everything you can get your neighbour has the right to the samething as you.. Do you want to live like in the kingdom of heaven or as in hell. Human killed Jesus because they wanted to live as in hell.

[User]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

You must not take this Gospel text in an imaginative sense, but as it is. Your work is paid the same in a cashless system as in the kingdom of God. So no matter how hard you work, whether you work hard or not, we are all entitled to the same rewards, there is no discrimination between hard work or not. So no matter what you do as work your reward is the same as everybody. As exemple if your reward in a moneyless society are house, food, clothes, vacation, time off, and everything you can get your neighbour has the right to the samething as you.. Do you want to live like in the kingdom of heaven or as in hell. Human killed Jesus because they wanted to live as in hell.

This is a parable. I’m taking it as it was meant. Even taking it literally as you insist, all it does is completely disagree with everything you have previously argued.

These people were paid a wage. That isn’t a gift economy at all.

So now you are arguing for some kind of Christian theocracy where everyone’s wages are the same. 
 

And if you want to argue Christianity you are still woefully wrong about money, as there is no definitive position against money and in fact, we have the parable of the talents which flies in the face of what you are trying to argue. 
 

[Gaétan]

45 minutes ago, User said:

This is a parable. I’m taking it as it was meant. Even taking it literally as you insist, all it does is completely disagree with everything you have previously argued.

These people were paid a wage. That isn’t a gift economy at all.

So now you are arguing for some kind of Christian theocracy where everyone’s wages are the same. 
 

And if you want to argue Christianity you are still woefully wrong about money, as there is no definitive position against money and in fact, we have the parable of the talents which flies in the face of what you are trying to argue. 
 

The parable of talent means that when you live in a world of money or evil you have to invest the money otherwise it is starvation, you can't hide money. That's a bad side of money because if it doesn't circulate nobody can eat. You have to take this parable literaly as the other one and not according to your imagination. The parable of the workers says that in the Kingdom it is like this not as what it is, then in heaven they dont use money at all and no matter what is your labor your reward is like the one of everybody.

Edited May 1, 2024 by Gaétan

[User]

53 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

The parable of talent means that when you live in a world of money or evil you have to invest the money otherwise it is starvation, you can't hide money. That's a bad side of money because if it doesn't circulate nobody can eat. You have to take this parable literaly as the other one and not according to your imagination. The parable of the workers says that in the Kingdom it is like this not as what it is, then in heaven they dont use money at all and no matter what is your labor your reward is like the one of everybody.

Yes, we live in a world of money and there is no scriptural foundation for a doctrine against its use as you are trying to argue. 

Where am I taking it by imagination? They are parables. They are not literal events, they are stories told to convey a point and message. I am focused on that message here. 

So, lets review: You tried to argue for a Gift economy... you couldn't, you failed repeatedly to explain yourself or answer basic questions. 

Now you pivot to wanting a society with money, only it should be one where everyone is paid the same and are using scripture wrongly to do so and ignoring the rest. 

So, what exactly is your argument now? What is it you want? 

 

[blackbird]

The premise of this thread is total foolishness.

[User]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The premise of this thread is total foolishness.

It was just too easy to point out its flaws... but for some reason I can't quite get Gaétan to admit that. 

[Gaétan]

1 hour ago, User said:

Yes, we live in a world of money and there is no scriptural foundation for a doctrine against its use as you are trying to argue. 

Where am I taking it by imagination? They are parables. They are not literal events, they are stories told to convey a point and message. I am focused on that message here. 

So, lets review: You tried to argue for a Gift economy... you couldn't, you failed repeatedly to explain yourself or answer basic questions. 

Now you pivot to wanting a society with money, only it should be one where everyone is paid the same and are using scripture wrongly to do so and ignoring the rest. 

So, what exactly is your argument now? What is it you want? 

 

That's your opinion, i based mine on scripture, not you, if you use imagination you can say anything of a scripture but it has to be taken as it is said first.

[User]

5 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

That's your opinion, i based mine on scripture, not you, if you use imagination you can say anything of a scripture but it has to be taken as it is said first.

No, you have failed to use scripture and I have pointed out the flaws in your position with scripture. I brought up the parable of the talents, remember?

I don't have to take anything as you say it... that is YOUR opinion now. 

 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

That's your opinion, i based mine on scripture, not you, if you use imagination you can say anything of a scripture but it has to be taken as it is said first.

Your use of scripture is totally twisted.

[Gaétan]

9 hours ago, User said:

No, you have failed to use scripture and I have pointed out the flaws in your position with scripture. I brought up the parable of the talents, remember?

I don't have to take anything as you say it... that is YOUR opinion now. 

 

Yes but your  interpretation of the scripture is back up by your imagination while i take it as it is, When the scripture says there is water in the cup it means what it means, if you use your imagination you can say anything like there is money in the cup or you can say that the cup is your body and the water is blood but it just says what it is, there is water in the cup, punto final.

Edited May 2, 2024 by Gaétan

[User]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Yes but your  interpretation of the scripture is back up by your imagination while i take it as it is, When the scripture says there is water in the cup it means what it means, if you use your imagination you can say anything like there is money in the cup or you can say that the cup is your body and the water is blood but it just says what it is, there is water in the cup, punto final.

What are you talking about?

Your take on the scripture is still a contradiction to your position here. You tried to say you wanted a gift economy, and then you said you wanted everyone to be paid the same wage.

 

 

[Gaétan]

6 hours ago, User said:

What are you talking about?

Your take on the scripture is still a contradiction to your position here. You tried to say you wanted a gift economy, and then you said you wanted everyone to be paid the same wage.

 

 

Exactly you are paid the same wage in a gift economy no matter what you do you but what is your wage? Anything others can get. If your neighbour can get a house, furnitures, TV, internet, car, food, clothes, whatever the society can afford to give you depends of work done by the community and anyone can get the samething. It doesn't depend of money it depends of work done. What you get is your own choice of course but it doesn't depend of money but work. You may rather live in apartment downtown that to live in a house two hour drive from the city but this is your choice. You have choice, you may like to play tennis others golf ot other activities.

Edited May 2, 2024 by Gaétan

[User]

3 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Exactly you are paid the same wage in a gift economy no matter what you do you but what is your wage? Anything others can get. If your neighbour can get a house, furnitures, TV, internet, car, food, clothes, whatever the society can afford to give you depends of work done by the community and anyone can get the samething. It doesn't depend of money it depends of work done. What you get is your own choice of course but it doesn't depend of money but work. You may rather live in apartment downtown that to live in a house two hour drive from the city but this is your choice. You have choice, you may like to play tennis others golf ot other activities.

Alright... I am done. 

You have no interest in honestly discussing this. Your entire schtick here was to want a gift economy that had no money. Now, you are pretending like you never said any of that, and your idea of a gift economy does have money. 

[Gaétan]

18 minutes ago, User said:

Alright... I am done. 

You have no interest in honestly discussing this. Your entire schtick here was to want a gift economy that had no money. Now, you are pretending like you never said any of that, and your idea of a gift economy does have money. 

There is no money in a gift economy not the system i propose anyway. What you get for your work is according to your choice and what the community can afford to give you. Like if you want to go to the moon but maybe the community cannot afford that to people.