Ukraine Can't Win the War

[User]

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

You seem to have forgotten what I was saying was the truth, so I'll summarize what's in the nested quotes above. I said that Russia doesn't want a ceasefire but a permanent peace agreement. You said that was the "dumbest lie in the world" and -that's- when i said it was the truth, after which I provided evidence for my belief with a linked article. I suspect you don't generally bother to look at nested quotes, so again, that linked article is here:

Once again... Russia started this war. The permanent peace agreement can be had whenever they want, when they stop their invasion. 

What Russia is interested in is not peace, but conquest. They want Ukraine to capitulate to their demands to control them. 

That is not peace, it is subjugation. 

Yes, what you are saying is and continues to be an absurdly dumb lie. 

No, I don't read whatever propaganda opinions you link to. Make your own arguments or don't. 

[Scott75]

5 hours ago, User said:

Once again... Russia started this war.

No, you're wrong about that too. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs set the record straight on that in a speech he gave to European Parliament back in February. Quoting:

**

Now in 2014, the U.S. worked actively to overthrow Yanukovych. Everybody knows the phone call intercepted by my Columbia University colleague, Victoria Nuland, and the U.S. ambassador, Geoffrey Pyatt. You don’t get better evidence. The Russians intercepted her call, and they put it on the Internet. 

It’s fascinating. By doing that, they all got promoted in the Biden administration. That’s the job. When the Maidan occurred, I was called soon after. “Professor Sachs, the new Ukrainian prime minister would like to see you to talk about the economic crisis.” So, I flew to Kyiv, and I was walked around the Maidan. And I was told how the U.S. paid the money for all the people around the Maidan, the “spontaneous” Revolution of Dignity.

Ladies and gentlemen, please, how did all those Ukrainian media outlets suddenly appear at the time of the Maidan? Where did all this organization come from? Where did all these buses come from? Where did all those people come from? Are you kidding? This is an organized effort. And it’s not a secret, except perhaps to citizens of Europe and the United States. Everyone else understands it quite clearly.

**

Source:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

 

That's not even the darkest part of what happened during Euromaidan. This is the darkest part:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hidden-truth-about-ukraine-italian-documentary-bombshell-evidence-kiev-euromaidan-snipers-kill-demonstrators/5619684

[User]

21 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

No, you're wrong about that too. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs set the record straight on that in a speech he gave to European Parliament back in February.

Nothing in this speech you provided shows or explains how I am wrong. 

This is a simple fact. Russia invaded Ukraine. 

[Scott75]

30 minutes ago, User said:

53 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

No, you're wrong about that too. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs set the record straight on that in a speech he gave to European Parliament back in February. Quoting:

**

Now in 2014, the U.S. worked actively to overthrow Yanukovych. Everybody knows the phone call intercepted by my Columbia University colleague, Victoria Nuland, and the U.S. ambassador, Geoffrey Pyatt. You don’t get better evidence. The Russians intercepted her call, and they put it on the Internet. 

It’s fascinating. By doing that, they all got promoted in the Biden administration. That’s the job. When the Maidan occurred, I was called soon after. “Professor Sachs, the new Ukrainian prime minister would like to see you to talk about the economic crisis.” So, I flew to Kyiv, and I was walked around the Maidan. And I was told how the U.S. paid the money for all the people around the Maidan, the “spontaneous” Revolution of Dignity.

Ladies and gentlemen, please, how did all those Ukrainian media outlets suddenly appear at the time of the Maidan? Where did all this organization come from? Where did all these buses come from? Where did all those people come from? Are you kidding? This is an organized effort. And it’s not a secret, except perhaps to citizens of Europe and the United States. Everyone else understands it quite clearly.

**

Source:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

Nothing in this speech you provided shows or explains how I am wrong.

I have a feeling you'd see things differently if Russia were to help overthrow the elected President of the United States.

[User]

1 minute ago, Scott75 said:

I have a feeling you'd see things differently if Russia were to help overthrow the elected President of the United States.

How would that make me see things differently?

[Scott75]

11 minutes ago, User said:

13 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

I have a feeling you'd see things differently if Russia were to help overthrow the elected President of the United States.

How would that make me see things differently?

So you're saying Americans wouldn't be hopping mad with Russia if that happened? Actually, I think that Jeffrey Sachs gives a better example of a turnaround here. Quoting from his speech to European Parliament once more:

**

Trump won the 2016 election and then expanded arms shipments to Ukraine. There were many thousands of deaths in the shelling by Ukraine in the Donbas. There was no implementation of the Minsk II agreement.

Then Biden came into office in 2021. I hoped for better but was profoundly disappointed once again. I used to be a member of the Democratic Party. I now am a member of no party because both are the same anyway. The Democrats became complete warmongers over time, and there was not one voice in the party calling for peace. Just as with most of your parliamentarians, the same way.

At the end of 2021, Putin put on the table a last effort to reach a modus operandi with the U.S., in two security agreement drafts, one with Europe and one with the United States. He put the Russia-U.S. draft agreement on the table on Dec. 15, 2021.

Following that, I had an hour-long call with [National Security Advisor] Jake Sullivan in the White House, begging, “Jake, avoid the war. You can avoid the war. All the U.S. has to do is say, ‘NATO will not enlarge to Ukraine.’” And he said to me, “Oh, NATO’s not going to enlarge to Ukraine. Don’t worry about it.”

I said, “Jake, say it publicly.”

“No. No. No. We can’t say it publicly.”

I said, “Jake, you’re going to have a war over something that isn’t even going to happen?”

He said, “Don’t worry, Jeff. There will be no war.”

These are not very bright people. I’m telling you, if I can give you my honest view, they’re not very bright people. They talk to themselves. They don’t talk to anybody else. They play game theory. In noncooperative game theory, you don’t talk to the other side. You just make your strategy. This is the essence of non-cooperative game theory. It’s not negotiation theory. It’s not peacemaking theory. It is unilateral, noncooperative theory, if you know formal game theory.

That’s what they play. That kind of game theory started [in application] at the RAND Corporation. That’s what they still play. In 2019, there’s a paper by RAND, “Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground.”

Incredibly, the paper, in the public domain, asks how the U.S. should annoy, antagonize, and weaken Russia. That’s literally the strategy. We’re trying to provoke Russia, trying to make Russia break apart, perhaps have regime change, maybe unrest, maybe an economic crisis.

That’s what you in Europe call your ally. So, there I was with my frustrating phone call with Sullivan, standing out in the freezing cold. I happened to be trying to have a ski day.

“Oh, there’ll be no war, Jeff.”

We know what happened next: the Biden administration refused to negotiate over NATO enlargement. The stupidest idea of NATO is the so-called open-door policy, based on Article 10 of the NATO Treaty (1949). NATO reserves the right to go where it wants, as long as the host government agrees, without any neighbor – such as Russia — having any say whatsoever.

Well, I tell the Mexicans and the Canadians, “Don’t try it.” You know, Trump may want to take over Canada. So, the Canadian government could say to China, “Why don’t you build a military base in Ontario?” I wouldn’t advise it. The U.S. would not say, “Well, it’s an open door. That’s Canada’s and China’s business, not ours.” The U.S. would invade Canada.

Yet grownups, including in Europe, in this Parliament, in NATO, in the European Commission, repeat the absurd mantra that Russia has no say in NATO enlargement. This is nonsense stuff. This is not even baby geopolitics. This is just not thinking at all. So, the Ukraine War escalated in February 2022 when the Biden Administration refused any serious negotiations.

**

 

Source:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

[User]

7 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

So you're saying Americans wouldn't be hopping mad with Russia if that happened?

The discussion we are having is not about how mad people would be. 

[Scott75]

49 minutes ago, User said:

58 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

1 hour ago, User said:

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

1 hour ago, User said:

2 hours ago, Scott75 said:

7 hours ago, User said:

Once again... Russia started this war.

No, you're wrong about that too. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs set the record straight on that in a speech he gave to European Parliament back in February. Quoting:

**

Now in 2014, the U.S. worked actively to overthrow Yanukovych. Everybody knows the phone call intercepted by my Columbia University colleague, Victoria Nuland, and the U.S. ambassador, Geoffrey Pyatt. You don’t get better evidence. The Russians intercepted her call, and they put it on the Internet. 

It’s fascinating. By doing that, they all got promoted in the Biden administration. That’s the job. When the Maidan occurred, I was called soon after. “Professor Sachs, the new Ukrainian prime minister would like to see you to talk about the economic crisis.” So, I flew to Kyiv, and I was walked around the Maidan. And I was told how the U.S. paid the money for all the people around the Maidan, the “spontaneous” Revolution of Dignity.

Ladies and gentlemen, please, how did all those Ukrainian media outlets suddenly appear at the time of the Maidan? Where did all this organization come from? Where did all these buses come from? Where did all those people come from? Are you kidding? This is an organized effort. And it’s not a secret, except perhaps to citizens of Europe and the United States. Everyone else understands it quite clearly.

**

Source:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

 

That's not even the darkest part of what happened during Euromaidan. This is the darkest part:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hidden-truth-about-ukraine-italian-documentary-bombshell-evidence-kiev-euromaidan-snipers-kill-demonstrators/5619684

Nothing in this speech you provided shows or explains how I am wrong.

I have a feeling you'd see things differently if Russia were to help overthrow the elected President of the United States.

How would that make me see things differently?

So you're saying Americans wouldn't be hopping mad with Russia if that happened?

The discussion we are having is not about how mad people would be. 

You're right, it was about who started the war. I'd say that the U.S.'s part in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych, who was the elected Ukrainian President at the time, was what started it all. I mean tell me, if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister, then the new government insisted that all government institutions and schools spoke French, causing the English part of Canada to rebel, you don't think that the U.S. would step in?

[User]

32 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

You're right, it was about who started the war. I'd say that the U.S.'s part in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych, who was the elected Ukrainian President at the time, was what started it all. I mean tell me, if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister, then the new government insisted that all government institutions and schools spoke French, causing the English part of Canada to rebel, you don't think that the U.S. would step in?

No, that is not a start to any war. You are trying to absurdly justify Russia starting a war... but it was Russia that started the war. 

[Scott75]

10 hours ago, User said:

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

You're right, it was about who started the war. I'd say that the U.S.'s part in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych, who was the elected Ukrainian President at the time, was what started it all. I mean tell me, if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister, then the new government insisted that all government institutions and schools spoke French, causing the English part of Canada to rebel, you don't think that the U.S. would step in?

No, that is not a start to any war.

Are you suggesting that if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister and then proceeded to aid and abet the new regime's persecution of its English speaking population that the U.S. would just sit placidly by? Or, assuming that you realize that the U.S. would -not- just sit watching placidly, do you think that the world would agree that it was the U.S. that "started" a war when it went in to protect the English speaking population of Canada?

[User]

17 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Are you suggesting that if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister and then proceeded to aid and abet the new regime's persecution of its English speaking population that the U.S. would just sit placidly by? Or, assuming that you realize that the U.S. would -not- just sit watching placidly, do you think that the world would agree that it was the U.S. that "started" a war when it went in to protect the English speaking population of Canada?

My position is quite clear here. I am not suggesting anything. 

Russia started this war. Russia took advantage of the chaos going on with the Ukrainian government and annexed Crimea. Then they started a shadow war in the Donbas. Then they launched an all out full scale invasion of Ukraine. 

You keep saying they want a peace plan... they can have that anytime they want by simply stopping the war of aggression they are pushing. 

We don't need silly hypothetical games that do not correlate to understand this. 

[Scott75]

8 minutes ago, User said:

28 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Are you suggesting that if France helped overthrow Canada's Prime Minister and then proceeded to aid and abet the new regime's persecution of its English speaking population that the U.S. would just sit placidly by? Or, assuming that you realize that the U.S. would -not- just sit watching placidly, do you think that the world would agree that it was the U.S. that "started" a war when it went in to protect the English speaking population of Canada?

My position is quite clear here. I am not suggesting anything. 

Russia started this war. Russia took advantage of the chaos going on with the Ukrainian government and annexed Crimea.

Do you know -why- there was chaos in the Ukrainian government?

[User]

8 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Do you know -why- there was chaos in the Ukrainian government?

Again, that is you trying to justify Russia starting a war... but at the end of the day, they started a war. This is their war of aggression. 

If you are going to then sit here arguing about them wanting a peace plan... they had that before they started this war. There was already peace. 

 

[Scott75]

59 minutes ago, User said:

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

Do you know -why- there was chaos in the Ukrainian government?

Again, that is you trying to justify Russia starting a war...

No, I'm trying to get you to realize that the war in Ukraine was started by what happened during Euromaidan. Some articles that are quite educational in this regard:

https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/24/timeline-euromaidan-the-original-ukraine-crisis/

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hidden-truth-about-ukraine-italian-documentary-bombshell-evidence-kiev-euromaidan-snipers-kill-demonstrators/5619684

[User]

1 minute ago, Scott75 said:

No, I'm trying to get you to realize that the war in Ukraine was started by what happened during Euromaidan. Some articles that are quite educational in this regard:

https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/24/timeline-euromaidan-the-original-ukraine-crisis/

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hidden-truth-about-ukraine-italian-documentary-bombshell-evidence-kiev-euromaidan-snipers-kill-demonstrators/5619684

No, it was not. 

Whatever your opinion is on the happenings of internal Ukraine politics, none of that was a war or the start of one.