Confused and Concerned

[ProudCanadian1191]

Hello There, I'm a new user here at these forums as of today. I'm 19 years old and from Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. I came to these forums as a result of searching for information on the parties running in the elections takings place this month. My concern is that I'm not very knowledgable in the political department and I'd like to learn more about what truly is an important subject. I've seen a lot of the commercials and read a few headlines, but other than that I'm a bit confused as to where to get more information on the pros and cons of each of the political parties. I have tried visiting the home sites of the Liberal, Conservative, and NDP parties, but my biggest fear about getting information from those sites is that they might be a little too biased to tell the whole story so-to-speak. For this reason I began looking for a more neutral site that might carry information on the pros and cons of all parties, and that search led me here.

So my question is this: can anyone provide me, if it's not too much trouble, with a reasonable amount of information on the pros and cons of all parties?

[apollo19]

Well this is subjective to everyone, but I'll point out my views:

Conservative Pros:

-less taxes

-a "daycare" allowance, or basically money for having kids

Liberal Pros:

-pay half of first+last years tuition (moving Canada closer to European education)

-commitment to multiculturalism

NDP Pros:

-the colours of the party make it seem like Halloween year-round

Conservative Cons:

-insistence on keeping socon issues on the table (like gay marriage and abortion)

Liberal Cons:

-scandal plauged, untrustworthy

-high growth on unnecessary social spending

NDP Cons:

-everything

[Hydraboss]

and don't forget...

Conservatives - "Now if we can only get rid of the federal government completely...no...wait...that's us!...Damn!

Liberals - "If we can just steal some of the funds from the 1.75/vote fund and give it to ourselves, then we would be able to give us some more of what we were going to give to the Liberals so they could kick-back a portion of the money to us...and...hold on...what the hell were we saying?...Damn!

...and of course...

NDP - "Trick or treat!!!...what the...candy?...I was hoping for a quarter trillion dollars to balance my budget...Damn!

Seriously, you're better to scan the forum for topics that interest you...and don't forget to check out the parties' websites for their platforms...well, at least most of their platforms.

Good luck.

[geoffrey]

Well of the parties that have a chance of being elected, heres my list (I assume your not voting Bloc ). This is from my perspective as an Alberta in post-secondary that also works in a small-business environment (could you say any more conservative ).

CPC Pros:-Tax Relief, especially the GST, they will create more jobs via their methods

-$10,000/year tax exemption on scholarships (this will be a godsend for me)

-Accountability Act, clean up all that trouble

-Harper is very smart, and will run this country effectively

-Trade benifets with not only the US but around the world

-Military and foreign policy will give Canada more credit on the world stage

CPC Cons:

-Environmental Policy is sketchy

-Bringing up same-sex marriage (I don't agree with Same-Sex Marriage, but this does turn off many Ontario voters)

-Still have a child-care program (I don't agree with any child care program)

-Will have trouble in a minority system

LPC Pros:

-Track record on keeping Canada fiscally sound

-Paying for half of first and last year of degrees

LPC Cons:

-Criminal investigations into the party

-Proven track record of corruption

-Simply been in power too long

-Again, they have a childcare program

NDP Pros:

-Environment, the only party that'd actual do anything.

-If your in a Union you'll benifet

NDP Cons:

-If your not in a Union... you might as well just pack your bags and move.

[August1991]

Hello There, I'm a new user here at these forums as of today. I'm 19 years old and from Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. I came to these forums as a result of searching for information on the parties running in the elections takings place this month. My concern is that I'm not very knowledgable in the political department and I'd like to learn more about what truly is an important subject. I've seen a lot of the commercials and read a few headlines, but other than that I'm a bit confused as to where to get more information on the pros and cons of each of the political parties. I have tried visiting the home sites of the Liberal, Conservative, and NDP parties, but my biggest fear about getting information from those sites is that they might be a little too biased to tell the whole story so-to-speak. For this reason I began looking for a more neutral site that might carry information on the pros and cons of all parties, and that search led me here.

So my question is this: can anyone provide me, if it's not too much trouble, with a reasonable amount of information on the pros and cons of all parties?

I think this is a good forum for Canadian politics, if you are interested to learn. We have posters from all across the spectrum - supporters of the NDP, the Conservatives, the Liberals and even one or two sympathetic to the BQ. Don't be shy to post a comment or question.

[mar]

Well, I gotta add something, tho a lot of the previous posts are true (and funny).

Liberals

PROS:

- Did not send Canadian Forces members the same age as you to Iraq to make us popular with George Bush.

- Will not gut social prgrams (they might want to but their voters won't let them)

- Did give you a nice income tax tax cut that the Conservatives plan to take away

- Have produced one of the best economic growth records in the Western world over their tenure (including Cretien when Martin was Finance Minister). Canadians pay less taxes now than they did in 1994 and have higher incomes (you can look it up in Statistics Canda, Government accounts and other official sources).

CONS:

- Implemented (admittedly with the aid of other parties) an ill conceived and expensive program to combat Quebec separation that, because of inadequate controls or deliberate planning, allowed Liberal party members, Liberal appointed civil servants and Liberal political hacks to steal large amounts of taxpayers' money. No question this was wrong and in fact criminal in the case of individuals. Importance depends on whether you believe that the people from the former Liberal government (the Cretien one) have been purged from the party and Martin is as innocent as he appears to be according to the Gomery report.

- May have created such dislike for themselves in Quebec that they will be inneffective in stemming separation if another referendum is sought.

- Definitley do have an air of entitlement from being in power so long. They may have become too fat and lazy to mount an effective campaign this time.

- Martin is not an especially skilled a politician and he may have discarded valuable people in his leadership fight with Cretien.

Conservatives:

PROS:

- The current U.S. administration loves them. While this to me is a negative, it will probably have positive advantages as Washington may settle things like the softwood lumber dispute just to shore up Harper.

- They will put small amounts of cash in peoples' pockets in the form of rebates and other giveaways. If you like that feeling of getting a cheque in the mail, you may like this.

- if they have a minority they might be only minimally dangerous

CONS:

- If they had been the government in 2003, people your age would have been brought back from Iraq in body bags.

- No track record in managing the country (there are very few party members left who ever served with any government).

- They have obligations to the Christian movement whose policies on abortion, same sex mariage, etc. you may not agree with. Jury is out on how important this would end up being.

- May attempt to erode social programs like heath care by underfunding them or otherwise compromising them

NDP

PROS:

Last remnant of the party that was the principal group pushing for public health care.

Many of their members are quite sincere (they have to be because they're never going to form a government).

CONS:

They will never form a government. Their time is past and they were unable to make the transition from "union party" to modern social-democratic party like the Labour Party in Britain did.

Green Party

Pick a political view, its represented somewhere in the buffet party platform. Maybe by the next election they will actually put together some coherent core beliefs.

[Wilber]

ProudCanadian

Confused:

Don't blame you. If you are looking for neutral information, tell us when you find it. Just take eveything with a grain of salt and don't let anyone tell you what to think no matter how hard we try.

Concerned:

OK but I wouldn't get too sweaty. No matter who wins this bun fight, in real terms it is most unlikely your world will change very much before the next election.

Like August says, this is a good place to learn, because the people here will make you think.

[Harare]

Hey Proud, here's a letter written by a non-political guy like you who put it quite well IMO -

Letter

I'd suggest that you ask yourself which is a more effective and productive way to get things done and to create wealth in a country have it done by Government or by Private Enterprise. If you think Government then the NDP & Libs who think more and bigger government should get your vote.

Think

Air Canada vs West Jet

Canada post vs Fed Ex

Privately run education vs public education

Good luck.

[Harare]

Geoffrey, I'd question this premise of yours -

LPC Pros:-Track record on keeping Canada fiscally sound.

that conveniently ignores our national debt of over 500 BILLION, largely at the hands of Liberals or their brilliant fiscal management of the GUN REGISTRY, The HRDC scandal or of Adscam.

For a small modern country with vast resources - usually stupidly sold as raw materials - and with the best location in the world for trade, you'd think we would be doing better than Taiwan, Holland, Denmark or Japan - all overcrowded and with no natural resources.

We should have a national PIGGY BANK of several hundred billion by now.

I'd fault all of our politicians for having no national vision beyond the next election.

[Wilber]

Hey Proud, here's a letter written by a non-political guy like you who put it quite well IMO -

Letter

I'd suggest that you ask yourself which is a more effective and productive way to get things done and to create wealth in a country have it done by Government or by Private Enterprise. If you think Government then the NDP & Libs who think more and bigger government should get your vote.

Think

Air Canada vs West Jet

Canada post vs Fed Ex

Privately run education vs public education

Good luck.

Air Canada hasn't been goverment run for years but it is still suffering from the hangover.

[Hicksey]

Hey Proud, here's a letter written by a non-political guy like you who put it quite well IMO -

Letter

I'd suggest that you ask yourself which is a more effective and productive way to get things done and to create wealth in a country have it done by Government or by Private Enterprise. If you think Government then the NDP & Libs who think more and bigger government should get your vote.

Think

Air Canada vs West Jet

Canada post vs Fed Ex

Privately run education vs public education

Good luck.

Air Canada hasn't been goverment run for years but it is still suffering from the hangover.

With all the taxpayer money floating around Air Canada, taxpayers should own it by now.

[BubberMiley]

Fed Ex is outrageously expensive compared to USPS if you're ordering from the States (Crazy brokerage fees)

Air Canada is a private corporation.

Canada has the best public school system in the world in which everyone can participate, not just rich kids who can have their education paid for.

And Canada was built on public enterprise, from the CNR coast to coast, to public utilities where private enterprise wasn't willing to foot the bill (but were more than willing to come in afterward, once the infrastructure was built by taxpayers' money).

Oh, and Manitoba has some of the best, cheapest automobile insurance rates in the country, with its publicly owned insurance--and paid for entirely by ratepayers.

We should be proud of the healthy mix of public and private enterprise in this country, and never get to ideological one way or the other. It's worked out very well for us.

[Hicksey]

Fed Ex is outrageously expensive compared to USPS if you're ordering from the States (Crazy brokerage fees)

Air Canada is a private corporation.

Canada has the best public school system in the world in which everyone can participate, not just rich kids who can have their education paid for.

And Canada was built on public enterprise, from the CNR coast to coast, to public utilities where private enterprise wasn't willing to foot the bill (but were more than willing to come in afterward, once the infrastructure was built by taxpayers' money).

Oh, and Manitoba has some of the best, cheapest automobile insurance rates in the country, with its publicly owned insurance--and paid for entirely by ratepayers.

We should be proud of the healthy mix of public and private enterprise in this country, and never get to ideological one way or the other. It's worked out very well for us.

In my limited experience, every service I get from the government I can get better from the private sector. And I do according to what I can afford and which I value a better job from.

I've been to the US and paid for health care. I couldn't afford to take an entire day off work to go to emergency with my sick child because the doctor told me it would be 2 weeks or more before I could be seen there. I was treated like a king. I was amazed. We were in and taken care of and including travel time it took me 4 hours, less than $100 including hospital and gas costs and I got back early enough to leave with my load and still get to my destination on time. $100 and four hours of my time where I would have been in emerg for 6-8 hours here in Chatham and lost nearly $250 in wages and no guarantee when they would get me a new load out.

I wouldn't care if we got the health care that keeps being promised. I'd value it. But what we get is nowhere near what is promised -- nowhere near worth the abyss of taxation that accompanies it.

[Boondoggle]

Hey Proud, here's a letter written by a non-political guy like you who put it quite well IMO -

Letter

I'd suggest that you ask yourself which is a more effective and productive way to get things done and to create wealth in a country have it done by Government or by Private Enterprise. If you think Government then the NDP & Libs who think more and bigger government should get your vote.

Think

Air Canada vs West Jet

Canada post vs Fed Ex

Privately run education vs public education

Good luck.

Central planning vs. free markets is a classic debate, and those interested should read about Keynes & Hayek. I think some government regulation is ok when it's in the interest of the public (ie health care), but name one country that's benefiting economically from government control of markets.

I disagree with you when it comes to the Liberals on this issue. The Liberals have spent billions on tax cuts, paid down debt, and signed on to NAFTA. This creates the conditions to expand private enterprise not government. The Liberals are more for big government when it comes to social programs. The national child care program they want to create is an example. However, they are fiscally conservative, and thus they're more of a centrist party.

This is an interesting topic, but it doesn't necessarily get into the details of the election or follow party lines. The fact is that the most important thing in politics is winning, and you do that by recognizing what there is demand for and using it to your advantage before your opponents use it against you. For example: with the increase of gun violence, there is demand for getting tough on crime, and Layton is talking about that even though it's typically more of a right-wing position. In contrast, Harper is talking about affordable housing, which is something you'd expect from Layton. Meanwhile, the Liberals have been one step behind because they're hoping the scare tactics used in the last election will work again.

Personally, I don't think the "hidden agenda" argument used by the Liberals holds water. After 12 years, the opposition is hungry for a chance to gain power. If they win and proceed to do things that upset alot of the constituents, it'll be twice as hard for them to get elected again, and I'm sure they're aware of that. Instead, I think what we'll see is that they will maintain the status quo on things like social program spending, and instead work on issues where there's more of a consensus but little action from the Liberals. If they want to stay in power after being elected, they'll have to prove themselves, and I think this is why they've taken care to have a pragmatic platform.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Let's keep it simple:

1. NDP believes GOVERNMENT is the solution to all issues. Got kids need daycare? The GOVERNMENT will make a program. Want medical care? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you. Lose your job? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you until you get another one.

This is all paid for by HIGH TAXES. So if you plan on being low income, poor or unemployed, you'll like the NDP alot.

2. LIBERALS think similar to the NDP on the GOVERNMENT taking care of everyone. But they also have lots of friends in big business in Toronto, so they occasionaly take private initiative into account.

BOTH OF THE ABOVE: believe that CANADA as a country should change its identity to accomodate new lifestyles (gay) or cultures (immigrants)

3. Conservatives believe we are an economically ADVANCED society which can get past depending on the GOVERNMENT to do things for us. They believe in setting out the proper CONDITIONS for businesses and individuals to flourish under a low tax environment.

Conservatives also have a sense of what they BELIEVE in. They don't CHANGE their beliefs everytime a new special interest group makes noise. They believe in GAY RIGHTS but not in GAY MARRIAGE, for example.

[newbie]

Let's keep it simple:

1. NDP believes GOVERNMENT is the solution to all issues. Got kids need daycare? The GOVERNMENT will make a program. Want medical care? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you. Lose your job? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you until you get another one.

This is all paid for by HIGH TAXES. So if you plan on being low income, poor or unemployed, you'll like the NDP alot.

2. LIBERALS think similar to the NDP on the GOVERNMENT taking care of everyone. But they also have lots of friends in big business in Toronto, so they occasionaly take private initiative into account.

BOTH OF THE ABOVE: believe that CANADA as a country should change its identity to accomodate new lifestyles (gay) or cultures (immigrants)

3. Conservatives believe we are an economically ADVANCED society which can get past depending on the GOVERNMENT to do things for us. They believe in setting out the proper CONDITIONS for businesses and individuals to flourish under a low tax environment.

Conservatives also have a sense of what they BELIEVE in. They don't CHANGE their beliefs everytime a new special interest group makes noise. They believe in GAY RIGHTS but not in GAY MARRIAGE, for example.

Wow! That was unpartisan. I would suggest strongly not to be swayed by anyone on this forum. Do your own research. All the leaders have fairly clear websites when you can get a very good understanding of the issues.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Let's keep it simple:

1. NDP believes GOVERNMENT is the solution to all issues. Got kids need daycare? The GOVERNMENT will make a program. Want medical care? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you. Lose your job? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you until you get another one.

This is all paid for by HIGH TAXES. So if you plan on being low income, poor or unemployed, you'll like the NDP alot.

2. LIBERALS think similar to the NDP on the GOVERNMENT taking care of everyone. But they also have lots of friends in big business in Toronto, so they occasionaly take private initiative into account.

BOTH OF THE ABOVE: believe that CANADA as a country should change its identity to accomodate new lifestyles (gay) or cultures (immigrants)

3. Conservatives believe we are an economically ADVANCED society which can get past depending on the GOVERNMENT to do things for us. They believe in setting out the proper CONDITIONS for businesses and individuals to flourish under a low tax environment.

Conservatives also have a sense of what they BELIEVE in. They don't CHANGE their beliefs everytime a new special interest group makes noise. They believe in GAY RIGHTS but not in GAY MARRIAGE, for example.

Wow! That was unpartisan. I would suggest strongly not to be swayed by anyone on this forum. Do your own research. All the leaders have fairly clear websites when you can get a very good understanding of the issues.

It's all true.

[Hicksey]

Let's keep it simple:

1. NDP believes GOVERNMENT is the solution to all issues. Got kids need daycare? The GOVERNMENT will make a program. Want medical care? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you. Lose your job? The GOVERNMENT will take care of you until you get another one.

This is all paid for by HIGH TAXES. So if you plan on being low income, poor or unemployed, you'll like the NDP alot.

2. LIBERALS think similar to the NDP on the GOVERNMENT taking care of everyone. But they also have lots of friends in big business in Toronto, so they occasionaly take private initiative into account.

BOTH OF THE ABOVE: believe that CANADA as a country should change its identity to accomodate new lifestyles (gay) or cultures (immigrants)

3. Conservatives believe we are an economically ADVANCED society which can get past depending on the GOVERNMENT to do things for us. They believe in setting out the proper CONDITIONS for businesses and individuals to flourish under a low tax environment.

Conservatives also have a sense of what they BELIEVE in. They don't CHANGE their beliefs everytime a new special interest group makes noise. They believe in GAY RIGHTS but not in GAY MARRIAGE, for example.

Well said JS.

[soothsayer]

Howdy,

I'd generally ignore the partisan crap you find on these forums and seemingly everywhere on the political front these days. My advice would be to start at the basics: understand the differences between right wing and left wing governments, and choose what you'd prefer. Generally, left wing governments are more socially progressive (supporting gay marriage, abortion, etc.) and believe in higher taxes which can be used to redistribute the wealth through social programs such as public health care, education, and child care. Generally, right wing governments are more socially conservative (don't support gay marriage, abortion, etc.) and believe in lower taxes so that more money is left in the individual's pocket. Conservative is right wing, NDP left wing, Liberal somewhere in between, and the Green party doesn't really fit on the traditional political spectrum.

This is heavily simplified, but it may be a good place to start. You then have to consider what issues are more important to you, and what each party offers in regards to these issues.

[Harare]

Good post JS....I'd agree with everything you said but I wonder if Government jobs weren't automatically union jobs if they would still be so keen on more government.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Howdy,

I'd generally ignore the partisan crap you find on these forums and seemingly everywhere on the political front these days. My advice would be to start at the basics: understand the differences between right wing and left wing governments, and choose what you'd prefer. Generally, left wing governments are more socially progressive (supporting gay marriage, abortion, etc.) and believe in higher taxes which can be used to redistribute the wealth through social programs such as public health care, education, and child care. Generally, right wing governments are more socially conservative (don't support gay marriage, abortion, etc.) and believe in lower taxes so that more money is left in the individual's pocket. Conservative is right wing, NDP left wing, Liberal somewhere in between, and the Green party doesn't really fit on the traditional political spectrum.

This is heavily simplified, but it may be a good place to start. You then have to consider what issues are more important to you, and what each party offers in regards to these issues.

This is roughly true - although I would add that only small amounts of conservatives are not in favor of abortion or gay marriage. Most don't care one way or the other.

To simplify your choice, think this way:

If you are poor, in a union or a student and need some help to keep your head above water,you'll like the LIBS and the NDP.

If you have moved up in the world and are starting to make some real money and think for yourself, you'll like the conservatives because they'll let you keep more of that income for yourself and your big house, nice cars and fancy vacations. So if you like cars, houses and vacations and would rather take care of yourself, vote conservative.

[Melanie_]

To simplify your choice, think this way:

If you are poor, in a union or a student and need some help to keep your head above water,you'll like the LIBS and the NDP.

If you have moved up in the world and are starting to make some real money and think for yourself, you'll like the conservatives because they'll let you keep more of that income for yourself and your big house, nice cars and fancy vacations. So if you like cars, houses and vacations and would rather take care of yourself, vote conservative.

I would change your response to say:

If you value each person independently working in their own best interests, regardless of how that impacts their fellow Canadians; if you value punitive actions taken when someone doesn't follow the predetermined "correct" lifestyle (think single parents in need of child care); if you value the Eagle over the Beaver; vote Conservative.

[JerrySeinfeld]

To simplify your choice, think this way:

If you are poor, in a union or a student and need some help to keep your head above water,you'll like the LIBS and the NDP.

If you have moved up in the world and are starting to make some real money and think for yourself, you'll like the conservatives because they'll let you keep more of that income for yourself and your big house, nice cars and fancy vacations. So if you like cars, houses and vacations and would rather take care of yourself, vote conservative.

I would change your response to say:

If you value each person independently working in their own best interests, regardless of how that impacts their fellow Canadians; if you value punitive actions taken when someone doesn't follow the predetermined "correct" lifestyle (think single parents in need of child care); if you value the Eagle over the Beaver; vote Conservative.

ah yes. the Hollywood, feel good view of thinking conservatives: they don't CARE about anyone.

it has to be simple, feel good and not be difficult, otherwise its wrong. great logic, lefties!

[Melanie_]

And yet, you can't muster an argument against any of the points......

[JerrySeinfeld]

And yet, you can't muster an argument against any of the points......

If you would cite clear examples instead of old hollywood tales about meanie neocons I'd be happy to.