Is it just me or have the Liberals around here fallen silent all of a

betsy · January 14, 2006

You love the Conservatives because they are determined to destroy Canada as a nation and turn it into a latter day Hanseatic League.
You love the Conservatives because - but why go on! There are a hundred reasons for the blinkered to love them.

You gotta be kidding me! :blink:

Yoo-hoo. Earth to Eureka....hello?

January 14, 2006

You are one sad case, betsy.

The Liberals have a child care programme in place and are proposing to enrich it. If it has taken 12 years, that is your fault: your fault because you would not press your Provincial governments to get with the agreements that the Liberals have been trying to reach with the Peovinces.

Those agreements are now signed with all Provinces.

Harper has said he will tear the agreements up.

Then, you are going off into wild flights of fancy about the UN and Ruanda. That merits no responnse. It is just too childish to seek some relationship with that and Canada,s prospects.

The terrible growth in Youth crime rates is a figment of the Conservative imagination and a useful tool for the most dishonest crew to ever disgrace Canadian politics. It is not there. The homicide rate has been decreasing for the whole period since the Liberals overpowered Campbell.

What should give you some reason for concern is a recent study by the Department of Criminology at the U of T. That study found a strong correlation between homicides and Income Inequality.

Will Harper destroy yhr nation? He has said very clearly that he will. I have gone over this time and time again but you have not taken in one thought. Canada is the most decentralized nation in the world - no exception. Many observers have commented that it is almost ungovernable.

Yet, Harper has sworn to devolve further powers to the provinces and to get the federal government out of programmes such as healthcare. That leaves Canada as ungovernable as a nation and what I called it: a latter day Hanseatic league.

The whole premise of the neocon existence is to increase that inequality.

So, when you address me, stop the "to Earth" jeering. I know more about the situation than you will ever know. More because you are too wrapped up in your beliefs to ever absorb infromation.

Canuck E Stan · January 14, 2006

You are one sad case, betsy.

Eureka,

You're a hasbeen.

A pompus know-it-all who at one time in his life was involved is a fringe party that went nowhere.

You tried to convince people you had a better answer to Liberal government back then, to no avail.

Then you moved on to the NDP, which until recently didn't suit you, and now you're defending the same government you tried to change with your fringe party.

You are the one sad case.

January 14, 2006

Try not to be an idiot, Canuck.

Canuck E Stan · January 14, 2006

Try not to be an idiot, Canuck.

Look deeply into the mirror of your past Eureka, and see how many you have managed to convince with your political dribble.

scribblet · January 14, 2006

You love the Conservatives for their aim to widen the gap between rich and poor in Canada and for their intention to increase the rate of poverty in the country.

The Chamber of Commerce of Canada, in its review of all the platforms of the parties had positive hopes about the way Harper will handle the US.

This chamber had voiced concern over the handling of the Liberal government of the USA, seriously concerned about the impact it will have on our economy.

The speaker mentioned that 80% of our trade is done with the US. She worries about jobs.

JOBS!

To me, that means INCOME.

Income means MONEY.

Without money, you are poor.

Well said Betsy - The Best Form of Welfare is a Job

Statements made about Harper and Bush are simply fear tactics with no basis in reality, in fact some of the statements made about Harper and the CPC are so far out in left field it leave one wondering if anyone writing that stuff is in the same century.

Hydraboss · January 14, 2006

Can we keep the PERSONAL slinging to a minimum? You both have views, so discuss them. The use of personal attacks is belittling to both. Want to pick on someone? I volunteer because I'm new and I don't bruise easily.

Discussion made this country, and discussion will keep it together.

Melanie_ · January 14, 2006

So forgive me if I don't actually buy that Early Childhood Learning sentiment you Liberal thinkers want to believe. In my views, there's nothing wrong with early childhood learning done at homes. Society had flourished...and had produced countless productive upright individuals without this Early Childhood Learning.

Betsy, you are right in saying that there is nothing wrong with early learning at home - I'm assuming you mean with a parent at home. I stayed at home, as I've mentioned before, when my younger two children were small. It was good for me, good for them, not so good for my career or for our family income. But for most families, that just isn't an option. A system doesn't mean that every child is in child care, any more than having a health system means that we all have heart bypass surgery. A system means that, when a service is needed, it is available. The Liberal child care plan talks about the QUAD principles of Quality, Universality, Accessibility, and Development - the Conservative plan does nothing on any of those fronts. The Conservative plan is short sighted and fondly looks back to a time when women had no options but to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

<edit> Yes, the best form of welfare is a job, but you can't work if you don't have child care.

Drea · January 14, 2006

I don't need childcare as my child is no longer "little".

The biggest problem for the women where I work is FINDING daycare space.

When my son was little (and I was a single mom) his daycare was almost completely paid for by the govt. The biggest issue I faced was finding a decent provider. I went through numerous "daycares" before I found a good one. It's very stressful when you have to leave your 9 month old baby with "whoever is available" because you've no choice!

My hubby and I now make good coin. If I had a baby now, would I NEED $100 from the govt? Nope. Would I actually spend the $100 on daycare? Probably not. We'd probably rent more movies LOL.

BTW, will this $100 per month be considered income? Will families be taxed on this extra income?

Harper's plan has NOTHING for my family. My son is grown, I don't take transit, and saving a lousy 1-2% of the gst is just plain lame. So the conservatives do absolutely NOTHING for middle income families who don't have babies! (that would be the MAJORITY of Canadians BTW).

I do like the conservatives stand on crime however. Minimum 2yr. sentence for any gun crime would be good.

Hydraboss · January 14, 2006

Drea, all well said.....but..

$100,000 house = 7% GST = $7,000

$100,000 house = 5% GST = $5,000

$10 shirt at Walmart = 7% GST = $0.70

$10 shirt at Walmart = 5% GST = $0.50

Multiply that by ALMOST EVERYTHING that you buy in a year.

And the GST plan means nothing to middle income earners?

Drea · January 14, 2006

Most people only buy a home every 5 years or so at the most frequent, so you are saving $2000 over 5 years.

I remember when the gst was first implemented. The biggest problem the govt had was THE COST OF COLLECTING THE GST. It costs something like 5% of all monies collected to pay for the collection of it. So now the gst won't do anything but cover the cost of collecting it so what is the point? Eventually it will actually COST MORE to collect than is collected!

A better strategy would be to cut personal income tax and lower corporate taxes to encourage business which in turn creates more jobs...

Personally, although I consider myself a liberal (small "l") Although I absolutely despise Mr. Harper himself, I hope that the conservative win a minority govt. because I really would like to see what they are capable of, what they really want for this country. But not with too much power! LOL

IMO if Peter MacKay were leader, the conservatives would have a sweeping majority -- many people, like me, think Harper is personally way too right wing.

I think we operate better under a minority anyway, when all people have a voice in parliament.

betsy · January 14, 2006

You are one sad case, betsy.
The Liberals have a child care programme in place and are proposing to enrich it. If it has taken 12 years, that is your fault: your fault because you would not press your Provincial governments to get with the agreements that the Liberals have been trying to reach with the Peovinces.

Those agreements are now signed with all Provinces.

Harper has said he will tear the agreements up.

Then, you are going off into wild flights of fancy about the UN and Ruanda. That merits no responnse. It is just too childish to seek some relationship with that and Canada,s prospects.

The terrible growth in Youth crime rates is a figment of the Conservative imagination and a useful tool for the most dishonest crew to ever disgrace Canadian politics. It is not there. The homicide rate has been decreasing for the whole period since the Liberals overpowered Campbell.

What should give you some reason for concern is a recent study by the Department of Criminology at the U of T. That study found a strong correlation between homicides and Income Inequality.

Will Harper destroy yhr nation? He has said very clearly that he will. I have gone over this time and time again but you have not taken in one thought. Canada is the most decentralized nation in the world - no exception. Many observers have commented that it is almost ungovernable.

Yet, Harper has sworn to devolve further powers to the provinces and to get the federal government out of programmes such as healthcare. That leaves Canada as ungovernable as a nation and what I called it: a latter day Hanseatic league.

The whole premise of the neocon existence is to increase that inequality.

So, when you address me, stop the "to Earth" jeering. I know more about the situation than you will ever know. More because you are too wrapped up in your beliefs to ever absorb infromation.

Yeah, right!

So far, from what heard from a debate in Toronto....

Provinces are complaining about Martin's "Father knows best" approach.

They say the Liberals had torn down the community programs.

At a radio station, tehy talk about the problems of the maritimes that they say the government do not understand.

The provinces are complaining about too much interference!

Good! Harper's reviewing those done deals by the Liberals! Good for him! I put that as a plus-point on his score.

As a leader, it shows he'll take nothing for granted....especially with the golden record of the Liberals for fudging, poor mathematical skills, and a steady pattern of corruptions....EVERYTHING that the Liberals did should all be reviewed! You betcha....at the rate they're peeling off like an onion.....there'll be more corruptions likely to be un-earthed by reviewing them again.

Most of these Liberal policies were hastily thrown in anyway. Somebody's gotta do it right. Obviously that ain't the Liberals!

Sorry if I offend you with the "earth to..." Sometimes I do get carried away.

Well, the way the Liberals are "governing" the nation seem to be pushing Canada to be split up like a melon!

That is already a proven.

You may know a lot of intricacies or have a better understanding of politics, as you claim.....and I may be stupid in your opinion, ignorant and easily fooled. But you know what?

I just say it like an ordinary bloke, a disgruntled taxpayer...one of the common people out there.

Being a staunch Liberal supporter, your assessment of me is not surprising.

The Liberals have been treating us as ignorant fools all these time.

betsy · January 14, 2006

So forgive me if I don't actually buy that Early Childhood Learning sentiment you Liberal thinkers want to believe. In my views, there's nothing wrong with early childhood learning done at homes. Society had flourished...and had produced countless productive upright individuals without this Early Childhood Learning.

Betsy, you are right in saying that there is nothing wrong with early learning at home - I'm assuming you mean with a parent at home. I stayed at home, as I've mentioned before, when my younger two children were small. It was good for me, good for them, not so good for my career or for our family income. But for most families, that just isn't an option. A system doesn't mean that every child is in child care, any more than having a health system means that we all have heart bypass surgery. A system means that, when a service is needed, it is available. The Liberal child care plan talks about the QUAD principles of Quality, Universality, Accessibility, and Development - the Conservative plan does nothing on any of those fronts. The Conservative plan is short sighted and fondly looks back to a time when women had no options but to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

<edit> Yes, the best form of welfare is a job, but you can't work if you don't have child care.

QUAD principle. Sounds very appealing to me Melanie. But you see...the big problem is: It's coming from the Liberals!

Their credibility sucks.

mar · January 14, 2006

QUAD principle. Sounds very appealing to me Melanie. But you see...the big problem is: It's coming from the Liberals!
Their credibility sucks.

If the spirit of Edmund Burke (I'm sure as a good conservative you know who that is) appeared to you in a burning bush and told you that the current liberal party best embodies the principles of free choice and respect for the individual that is the conservative tradition you'd say "Suck rocks, fireboy."

So you see your role as, what?

Proselitiser in that narrow little island in the history of conservatism currently called the Conservative Party of Canada?

Agent Provocateur?

Party Hack?

Harper Acolyte?

I mean you gotta admit when you're saying "Sounds very appealing to me Melanie. But you see...the big problem is: It's coming from the Liberals" that kinda suggests rational discourse is not your interest.

Vancouver King · January 14, 2006

Seems like a bunch of conservatives are patting each other on the back about an election nearly in the bag. All the Liberals that seemed to be fighting what they thought was the good fight for their party seem to have disappeared.

What has become of the forums favorite liberal, Norman Chateau? No one could hijack a thread faster than Normie.

All right then, I'll play leftest advocate: CTV, among others, has observed a stopping of CPC support at the 38-39% level. Could this be Canadians way of telling Stephen Harper, that yes we will give you the gov't, but only in a minority situation and depending on your performance in this pressure cooker, we will grant you a majority in a year or two?

betsy · January 14, 2006

So forgive me if I don't actually buy that Early Childhood Learning sentiment you Liberal thinkers want to believe. In my views, there's nothing wrong with early childhood learning done at homes. Society had flourished...and had produced countless productive upright individuals without this Early Childhood Learning.

Betsy, you are right in saying that there is nothing wrong with early learning at home - I'm assuming you mean with a parent at home. I stayed at home, as I've mentioned before, when my younger two children were small. It was good for me, good for them, not so good for my career or for our family income. But for most families, that just isn't an option. A system doesn't mean that every child is in child care, any more than having a health system means that we all have heart bypass surgery. A system means that, when a service is needed, it is available. The Liberal child care plan talks about the QUAD principles of Quality, Universality, Accessibility, and Development - the Conservative plan does nothing on any of those fronts. The Conservative plan is short sighted and fondly looks back to a time when women had no options but to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

<edit> Yes, the best form of welfare is a job, but you can't work if you don't have child care.

QUAD principle. Sounds very appealing to me Melanie. But you see...the big problem is: It's coming from the Liberals!

Their credibility sucks.

I was in a rush to go when I answered your post, Melanie....so now that I'm back, let me just repeat myself again.

I am for family values....and imho, the parents should have the right to choose what they think is best for their children. That is the main reason why I am against National Childcare....it intrudes on parents' rights. Plus compounded by the fact that it is coming from the Liberals. We know the boondagles of Liberals....nice packaging and trimmings....but hardly any substance.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with early childcare learning at home! And it does not necessarily means at home with a parent, either. It could be a grandmother, a neighbor, a friend....or even what everyone calls with derision, a "babysitter." Quality early childhood learning is not exclusive to institutions.

Okay, just to make sure I get this right....Melanie, what does Martin exactly means by early childhood learning?

betsy · January 14, 2006

So forgive me if I don't actually buy that Early Childhood Learning sentiment you Liberal thinkers want to believe. In my views, there's nothing wrong with early childhood learning done at homes. Society had flourished...and had produced countless productive upright individuals without this Early Childhood Learning.

Betsy, you are right in saying that there is nothing wrong with early learning at home - I'm assuming you mean with a parent at home. I stayed at home, as I've mentioned before, when my younger two children were small. It was good for me, good for them, not so good for my career or for our family income. But for most families, that just isn't an option. A system doesn't mean that every child is in child care, any more than having a health system means that we all have heart bypass surgery. A system means that, when a service is needed, it is available. The Liberal child care plan talks about the QUAD principles of Quality, Universality, Accessibility, and Development - the Conservative plan does nothing on any of those fronts. The Conservative plan is short sighted and fondly looks back to a time when women had no options but to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

<edit> Yes, the best form of welfare is a job, but you can't work if you don't have child care.

QUAD.

Harper's plan fits that profile. So there's no problem there.

Quality

Harper's plan does not eliminate quality. Actually it will help boost...or at least maintain quality by means of healthy competition. There is a certain standard to be followed....that's why we have the Day Nurseries Act.

Universality

Everybody gets the break.

Accessibility

Spaces galore, my friend! Parents' head will swirl from too many choices, in fact.

Development

You bet. Since it is the parents' rights....it is also the parents' responsibility to choose which one they think will be beneficial for their children.

geoffrey · January 14, 2006

QUAD.
Harper's plan fits that profile. So there's no problem there.

Quality

Harper's plan does not eliminate quality. Actually it will help boost...or at least maintain quality by means of healthy competition. There is a certain standard to be followed....that's why we have the Day Nurseries Act.

Universality

Everybody gets the break.

Accessibility

Spaces galore, my friend! Parents' head will swirl from too many choices, in fact.

Development

You bet. Since it is the parents' rights....it is also the parents' responsibility to choose which one they think will be beneficial for their children.

Good points Betsy, I don't see how Martin or Laytons plan cover any of these aspects.

Quality

There is no higher quality then a mother/father raising their child at home, however, competition in the private daycare section insures that poor quality centres close their doors quickly, and the good quality ones are where you send your kids. Since when has a federal institution ever provided quality? Why would anyone think it would change now.

Universality

Stay at home parents, grandparents, people already having their kids in private care all don't see anything from this plan. It's insulting to many stay at home moms and dads.

Accesibility

Only would be accessible for urban Canandians. Do you actually believe that efficient care can be provided to all the children in some remote rural communities? Private care and parents do a far better job of this.

Development

Taking kids out of their current situation with loving parents or daycare providers and throwing them into a big institutionalized child cookie cutter isn't really a good thing for childhood development.

What about all those thousands of people that's sole income is from daycare? Do we kick these people out to the curb as well?

What a ridiculous vote buying system. I don't support Harper's plan either by the way, though its the ONLY plan that makes sense right now. Why do we even need a daycare plan? Thats what it comes down to in my mind. When will we get to the point where everything is provided by the government? Let parents make choices with THEIR money, and stop bribing them with Brave New World type educational centres or bribing them with their own cash.

betsy · January 14, 2006

I don't need childcare as my child is no longer "little".
The biggest problem for the women where I work is FINDING daycare space.

When my son was little (and I was a single mom) his daycare was almost completely paid for by the govt. The biggest issue I faced was finding a decent provider. I went through numerous "daycares" before I found a good one. It's very stressful when you have to leave your 9 month old baby with "whoever is available" because you've no choice!

My hubby and I now make good coin. If I had a baby now, would I NEED $100 from the govt? Nope. Would I actually spend the $100 on daycare? Probably not. We'd probably rent more movies LOL.

BTW, will this $100 per month be considered income? Will families be taxed on this extra income?

Harper's plan has NOTHING for my family. My son is grown, I don't take transit, and saving a lousy 1-2% of the gst is just plain lame. So the conservatives do absolutely NOTHING for middle income families who don't have babies! (that would be the MAJORITY of Canadians BTW).

I do like the conservatives stand on crime however. Minimum 2yr. sentence for any gun crime would be good.

I don't have any kids of my own....yet I pay school tax.

When I was with the govt-funded agency, I had a mother on welfare who picked up her kid at an unexpectedly early time. Apparently she decided to skip school that day and so she was there yapping with me for so long. You know what, she came in a taxi...and all that time the taxi was waiting outside. I guess you could say, she was entitled .

But as a taxpayer.... I was paying for that.

But that's life. We all have to contribute one way or another.

And then you hear about those blasted corruptions and wasteful spendings by those who have created a climate of entitylement...on the backs of the working people!

No matter what they say, the Liberals do not share the same values as that of most Canadians!

So, can you blame if I just want to see them gone?

betsy · January 14, 2006

Drea, all well said.....but..
$100,000 house = 7% GST = $7,000

$100,000 house = 5% GST = $5,000

$10 shirt at Walmart = 7% GST = $0.70

$10 shirt at Walmart = 5% GST = $0.50

Multiply that by ALMOST EVERYTHING that you buy in a year.

And the GST plan means nothing to middle income earners?

Don't forget the car! Most middle-class folks change cars every so often!

betsy · January 14, 2006

Most people only buy a home every 5 years or so at the most frequent, so you are saving $2000 over 5 years.
I remember when the gst was first implemented. The biggest problem the govt had was THE COST OF COLLECTING THE GST. It costs something like 5% of all monies collected to pay for the collection of it. So now the gst won't do anything but cover the cost of collecting it so what is the point? Eventually it will actually COST MORE to collect than is collected!

A better strategy would be to cut personal income tax and lower corporate taxes to encourage business which in turn creates more jobs...

Personally, although I consider myself a liberal (small "l") Although I absolutely despise Mr. Harper himself, I hope that the conservative win a minority govt. because I really would like to see what they are capable of, what they really want for this country. But not with too much power! LOL

IMO if Peter MacKay were leader, the conservatives would have a sweeping majority -- many people, like me, think Harper is personally way too right wing.

I think we operate better under a minority anyway, when all people have a voice in parliament.

Drea, give Harper a chance to prove himself. There's been too many scare-mongering...things blown out of proportions or simply made up.

Melanie_ · January 14, 2006

Okay, just to make sure I get this right....Melanie, what does Martin exactly means by early childhood learning?

Just to be clear, I'm giving my interpretation of what has been said by the Liberals - I believe this to be what Martin means. Early childhood learning recognizes that children are learning throughout childhood; learning doesn't start when they turn 5 and go to kindergarten. But the learning is not the academic education the school system provides; it is physical, social, and emotional, as well as cognitive. No one is saying that parents and grandparents can't provide this. But the majority of children will not spend all of their time at home with a parent before entering the school system, and more and more grandmothers (such as myself) are still in the workforce, or living too far away. Quality child care means that, when you care for groups of children, you need to understand how to meet the needs of the group while still meeting individual needs, and provide activities and experiences that will be age appropriate and foster learning.

This is not limited to child care centres. Family child care providers are a natural choice for many parents, as it allows children to be in a homelike setting. Another option is part time Nursery school. Early learning happens in all settings, its more about ensuring that there are some standards and accountability for the public money that goes to support child care.

Climbing off of my soapbox......

Melanie_ · January 14, 2006

throwing them into a big institutionalized child cookie cutter isn't really a good thing for childhood development.

Yet this is what Harper proposes by opening the door for the big box Walmart sized daycares waiting for the go ahead to come up from the US. When he talks about tax breaks for corporations to set up daycares, who do you think that will mean? Small businesses aren't going to take him up on that - the tax break isn't worth it to them.

Hicksey · January 14, 2006

Seems like a bunch of conservatives are patting each other on the back about an election nearly in the bag. All the Liberals that seemed to be fighting what they thought was the good fight for their party seem to have disappeared.

What has become of the forums favorite liberal, Norman Chateau? No one could hijack a thread faster than Normie.

All right then, I'll play leftest advocate: CTV, among others, has observed a stopping of CPC support at the 38-39% level. Could this be Canadians way of telling Stephen Harper, that yes we will give you the gov't, but only in a minority situation and depending on your performance in this pressure cooker, we will grant you a majority in a year or two?

That's my position at this point. Until any government proves itself, only a strong minority is all they should get.

I like what I see from Harper better than the rest but until I see results I don't think he should get a majority.

shoop · January 14, 2006

It is tax breaks for corporations to set up daycare spaces *for their employees/children of their employees*. That is a very big part of the policy you have missed.

The proposal isn't for big box, for-profit daycare.

Yet this is what Harper proposes by opening the door for the big box Walmart sized daycares waiting for the go ahead to come up from the US. When he talks about tax breaks for corporations to set up daycares, who do you think that will mean? Small businesses aren't going to take him up on that - the tax break isn't worth it to them.