Is it just me or have the Liberals around here fallen silent all of a

[betsy]

Stop fuming and allow yourself to think, betsy.

The option is not there and parents will not have right to decide what is best for their children. That is present only when there is daycare as one choice. Without that, how can there be any choice.

Can you please explain further? I don't understand what you mean by this response.

[Hydraboss]

http://www.macewan.ca/web/home/DetailsPage...91&MenuOption=0

(granted that this is a survey from 2000)

So ECD workers make <30k a year. Superstore approx 40k/year.

Hmmmmm....

And just where are they going to get the workers for these daycares?

[Guest eureka]

Not too difficult, betsy. Standards and regulation are part of the plan. Then, they are putting up the money and that covers remuneration.

BTW, it seems to be passing unnoticed that the Conservative "plan" is to cost slightly more than the Liberal: about the same as the NDP. Yet the Conservative plan is for a tax refund disguised as daycare and a selective refund at that to that part of the population that is showing its votes can be bought.

[betsy]

I always thought the conservatives wanted LESS social safety net? "Get out there and work yah bum!" has been the mantra of conservatives forever. What changed? Why are conservatives now frothing at the mouth to get their hands on an extra $1200 a year? Even for those who don't need it (aren't poor)?

The provincial govt ALREADY pays for daycare. YES they pay even if grandma is looking after the kidlets.

They pay over $300 per month (at least in BC).

The biggest issue working parents face is finding decent care for their children. Giving everyone $1200 won't increase the amount of daycare spaces.

Pffft... family making $100,000 per year and the cons want to PAY THEM for having children? What a ridiculous idea.

Conservatives will cry: "but the single mom who goes to work gets over $300 from the govt and my stay at home wife should get some money too!"

Never mind that that family can afford brandname Playmobile toys etc and the single mom is going down to the thrift store to buy dirty old toys that she takes home and cleans for her toddler... and the crib she uses isn't quite up to par because she bought the only one she could afford and the wife of the rich guy has gone through two cribs already since the baby was born because she changed the colour of the baby's room again.

Sorry, got to ranting a bit but I am so disgusted with "have" people who figure they "need" the $1200.

With Harper's plan, the really needy single mom/dad will have the spaces in a public-funded daycare....since the others who can afford will most likely go and choose the kind of daycares they want.

Harper's plan will open up this spots.

And if your single mom happens to get employed by a big company that have its own daycare....there you go....I bet they'll have daycare hours tailor-made for their employees needs.

Btw, why begrudge families who can afford if they do get a break from Harper's plan? Most of these people who "can afford" had footed the bills to all the social programs.

But then again, it all boils down to parents having the right to decide for their own children. Most parents would want their child's early childhood learning to include learning of their own family values...and not the values dictated by a government.

[Melanie_]

Harper's plan will not support the provinces in licensing or monitoring, or providing subsidies for the working poor. We already know that $100/month is not going to pay for the care, especially when the parent is going to lose most of it in taxes (I'm standing by the Caledon Institute's numbers on this one). Large corporations might start up centres for their employees, if they choose to, but there are no guarantees. Small businesses won't make use of the tax breaks - I'm curious if there would be tax breaks available to several small businesses pooling their resources and opening a centre together, but that smacks a bit too much of socialism, I suspect, for the Conservatives to support.

Private centres here in Manitoba pay their employees significantly less than the non profit centres, which means that there is a revolving door of staff. If you are trying to make a profit for your business, yet trying to balance what parents can reasonably afford to pay, you are not going to be paying your staff decent wages. Kids need consistent caregivers, and the caregivers need to earn a wage that lets them move out of their parents' basements and be able to afford a life of their own. Its not an easy job in the first place, and when you get paid beans to do it, there isn't a lot of incentive to stay working in the field. Most people get into it because they love children, but that doesn't pay the bills. The Liberal plan allows provinces to supplement the wages that centres are able to pay, and gives some income support to family child care as well.

[Canuck E Stan]

Eureka

BTW, it seems to be passing unnoticed that the Conservative "plan" is to cost slightly more than the Liberal

Melanie

The Liberal plan allows provinces to supplement the wages that centres are able to pay, and gives some income support to family child care as well.

At 650,000 spaces, where are the provinces going to get the supplement money to pay for all these centres,and the daycare workers high wages, benefits, pension plans, health costs.

Ontario's 25,000 daycare spots are costing Ontario $44,000 each.

How is this going to cost less than the Conservative plan?

[betsy]

Not too difficult, betsy. Standards and regulation are part of the plan. Then, they are putting up the money and that covers remuneration.

Yes, I can just imagine the regulation.

But about standards....It is highly questionable though if they can at least maintain the current standards we now have.

It is the question of RENUMERATION that I, as a taxpayer, am most concerned about. Like I said, sometime in 2004 before the election, Child experts were on the news repeatedly, whining about the big problems the public daycares have in keeping their staff. They were calling for a bigger budget to raise the salaries of the staff to keep them from leaving.

Keep in mind that these problems are happening already....when the National Childcare is not even in place yet. They're already talking salary raise.

The expenses will be colossal.....far, far greater than the gun registry! I can almost foresee that this boondagle-about-to-happen will cost far more than the Tory's whole platform!

My question is: How will the Liberals ensure that they keep to their budget...and at the same time, maintain the standard?

[betsy]

Harper's plan will not support the provinces in licensing or monitoring, or providing subsidies for the working poor. We already know that $100/month is not going to pay for the care, especially when the parent is going to lose most of it in taxes (I'm standing by the Caledon Institute's numbers on this one). Large corporations might start up centres for their employees, if they choose to, but there are no guarantees. Small businesses won't make use of the tax breaks - I'm curious if there would be tax breaks available to several small businesses pooling their resources and opening a centre together, but that smacks a bit too much of socialism, I suspect, for the Conservatives to support.

Private centres here in Manitoba pay their employees significantly less than the non profit centres, which means that there is a revolving door of staff. If you are trying to make a profit for your business, yet trying to balance what parents can reasonably afford to pay, you are not going to be paying your staff decent wages. Kids need consistent caregivers, and the caregivers need to earn a wage that lets them move out of their parents' basements and be able to afford a life of their own. Its not an easy job in the first place, and when you get paid beans to do it, there isn't a lot of incentive to stay working in the field. Most people get into it because they love children, but that doesn't pay the bills. The Liberal plan allows provinces to supplement the wages that centres are able to pay, and gives some income support to family child care as well.

With competition, I'm sure daycare prices will be competitive!

If public-funded agencies and daycares will still insist on charging double the amount being charged by private competitions....that's their choice.

BTW, the "revolving doors" of staff are happening in the public daycares now. These staff are most likely paid higher than that of their counterparts from the private sector plus with all the benefits...and yet they do not stay.

One reason is said to be due to burn out. And the amount of bureacracy.

[betsy]

Stop fuming and allow yourself to think, betsy.

The option is not there and parents will not have right to decide what is best for their children. That is present only when there is daycare as one choice. Without that, how can there be any choice.

Eureka, you must have overlooked this one. Can you please explain further what you mean?

[Guest eureka]

The option is not there, betsy, if there is no daycare to choose. I don't see how much clearer it could be put. And Harper has no intention to create daycare facilities. He wants only to buy "middle class votes with the appearance of it..

Which brings up a point about class in this campaign - a shrinking middle class, btw. But maybe we should leave that for another time.

[Guest eureka]

Canuck: the Liberal plan has been costed at $11.9 billion: the Conservative at $12 billion. Each over five years. Not a lot of difference and the important point is that one is a plan to provide a much needed social programme and the other is a tax refund to a selected portion of the population: the portion in which there is the greatest potential to purchase votes.

[geoffrey]

Canuck: the Liberal plan has been costed at $11.9 billion: the Conservative at $12 billion. Each over five years. Not a lot of difference and the important point is that one is a plan to provide a much needed social programme and the other is a tax refund to a selected portion of the population: the portion in which there is the greatest potential to purchase votes.

I can tell you Stan was talking about a $44,000/spot in Ontario. 650,000 spots is equal to 28.6 billion per year, or 143 billion over 5. It's nice to cost things, and even nicer to cost things with common sense. You can also tack on some extra for admin costs and the such, which are invariably higher in the Federal government. Add in the extra cost of providing a centre in every single little community to make it 'universal.'

With the Liberals, I like to use the gun registry formula... when its in millions, change it to billions... in billions, I might as well change it to trillions.

I'm going to do some additional research and get back to you with a more reasonable number... at least I hope that 143 Billion isn't accurate?

[BubberMiley]

So the millions in tax relief the Libs are offering should be counted in the billions?

[geoffrey]

So the millions in tax relief the Libs are offering should be counted in the billions?

No, thats not an estimate, thats fact. I can calculate the big 1% income tax cut, a whopping $20/month for someone earning the top end of that bracket, an amazing $10/month for those at $22,000/year.

It's simple enough to look that up in the Stat's Can references and do the math.

Liberal estimates on how much services will cost to provide is a whole new ball game. Can anyone suggest a few Liberal programs that have come in under their proposed costs?

(10 points for effort though).

[betsy]

The option is not there, betsy, if there is no daycare to choose. I don't see how much clearer it could be put. And Harper has no intention to create daycare facilities. He wants only to buy "middle class votes with the appearance of it..

Which brings up a point about class in this campaign - a shrinking middle class, btw. But maybe we should leave that for another time.

Well I don't know how you can say that "there is no daycare to choose."

Harper's plan do not have to create more daycare facilities....since there'll be lots of other options and open spaces from other areas...which will free spaces in the daycare facilities that we now have.

[geoffrey]

Well I don't know how you can say that "there is no daycare to choose."

Harper's plan do not have to create more daycare facilities....since there'll be lots of other options and open spaces from other areas...which will free spaces in the daycare facilities that we now have.

I don't feel there is a massive daycare shortage right now, not to the point where every single spot is filled. And this is coming from a Calgarian, and if theres somewhere to run out of spots, its here. No need at all to make more spots and put hard working daycare owners out of business.