Arrest in ice hockey fatality

[SpankyMcFarland]

I think I’ll repost this here as it is worthy of note. A few weeks ago, Adam Johnson, a hockey player in Britain, died after being struck by a skate. In what I thought was a surprising development, a person was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/article-man-arrested-on-suspicion-of-manslaughter-after-death-of-former-nhler/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-american-hockey-player-adam-johnson-dies-after-freak-accident-during/

I was sceptical of grounds for the arrest until I saw a video of the incident which can be found online. To my inexperienced eye, this does not look like a typical skate injury. What do you hockey players think? 

Edited November 15, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[QuebecOverCanada]

It's hard to be 100% sure, but in this angle you can see him go behind the teammate of Adam Johnson and then instead of going forward with the upper body went with his left foot up to hit him. He tripped after initiating a movement upwards with his left foot, this seems to be like he wanted to hit with the skate.

(Graphic) The link for the video is here; https://videos.marca.com/v/0_ol2gdp4e-graphic-video-former-nhl-player-adam-johnson-died-after-accidentally-cutting-his-throat-with-skate?count=0

I don't think it is murder but it could well be manslaughter, from the angle. It looks like that but we would need different angles to confirm what happened, because this was such an odd movement for a hockey player to make in that situation.

[QuebecOverCanada]

Jurisprudence in Italy.

AOSTA, Italy -- Italian hockey player Jimmy Boni pleaded guilty to a reduced manslaughter charge for causing the death of an opponent during an Italian League game and was fined $1,600. Boni faced 10-to-18 years in prison.

The defense and prosecution agreed on a plea bargain before the trial began. The prosecutor conceded the scuffle that led to the player's death was 'part of the play.'

Miran Schrott fell to the ice after being slashed to the chest by Boni and died of cardiac arrest in a hospital without regaining consciousness. The incident occurred in a Jan. 14, 1992 game between Courmayer and Gardenia in the Italian B league.

The 19-year-old Schrott and Boni, the Courmayer captain, were scuffling in front of the net when Schrott punched Boni. Boni retaliated with a slash to the chest of Schrott.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/02/17/Italian-hockey-player-pleads-guilty-to-manslaughter/2921761461200/

[NAME REMOVED]

I am convinced Petgrave intentionally kicked his leg up, in order to attempt to impede Johnson's rush in the opponents zone. It's obvious that he did not intend to kill Johnson, but under law, this would be considered manslaughter, due to the fact that Johnson died from his injuries.

[QuebecOverCanada]

20 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

I am convinced Petgrave intentionally kicked his leg up, in order to attempt to impede Johnson's rush in the opponents zone. It's obvious that he did not intend to kill Johnson, but under law, this would be considered manslaughter, due to the fact that Johnson died from his injuries.

This is exactly what I think and maybe what the judge or jury will think too.

On another note, one of the most awful thing I've read about this case was on Twitter where many people, particularly far right extremists, said that Petgrave would get no charges because he was a Black man playing a White sport... a part of society's effed up to bring racism into this conversation.

[NAME REMOVED]

1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

This is exactly what I think and maybe what the judge or jury will think too.

On another note, one of the most awful thing I've read about this case was on Twitter where many people, particularly far right extremists, said that Petgrave would get no charges because he was a Black man playing a White sport... a part of society's effed up to bring racism into this conversation.

This was disgusting, indeed. It may be the reason that Petgrove received a standing ovation the night before he was charged (he was not dressed to play, just in the arena). 

 

i honestly believe that many of these far-right sites have gone after Petgrave, since hockey in many ways, is considered only of the last predominantly "white" competitive sports leagues in North America. i could not see them making these claims for the NBA or NFL.

Edited November 15, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

This is exactly what I think and maybe what the judge or jury will think too.

On another note, one of the most awful thing I've read about this case was on Twitter where many people, particularly far right extremists, said that Petgrave would get no charges because he was a Black man playing a White sport... a part of society's effed up to bring racism into this conversation.

I had assumed the UK police might not be familiar with ice hockey when they arrested a person on suspicion of manslaughter. Then I saw the video. The standing ovation I would put down to partisan sentiment by fans - when hockey pundits really start weighing in on this and explaining how unusual it looks then feelings may change. I can’t see how race has any role here. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[Guest]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:55 PM, DUI_Offender said:

I am convinced Petgrave intentionally kicked his leg up

He got bumped.

I don't see how that is intentional. Have you ever played ice hockey?

This play is similar to the one that injured Richard Zednik. Difference, is he survived. Also, it was his teammate so there literally would have been zero incentive to do so.

Its human physics. You falling like that, will cause your skate to kick up, especially if you're turning and the brunt of your weight is on the other skate.

I have taken falls like that  and was just lucky nobody got kicked, as I like my blades razor sharp for the edge control they give me.

I heard this player had kicked other players before.

If this is true, then he is in tough, as it looks incidental to me due to the contact, but he may not get a fair shake due to his history that will be used against him. 

Kicking in hockey anyone who loves the sport, knows it goes against the code. The rules too of course, but there is also an unwritten code.

Its like diving after barely being touched.

You will get punished by the league, but also will be seen as a p***y by your peers.

[SpankyMcFarland]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Kicking in hockey anyone who loves the sport, knows it goes against the code. The rules too of course, but there is also an unwritten code.

Its like diving after barely being touched.

Not really. One is annoying and the other is potentially deadly. 

The only defence I can see is that it was a reflex reaction to falling backwards. 
 

 

[NAME REMOVED]

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

He got bumped.

I don't see how that is intentional. Have you ever played ice hockey?

This play is similar to the one that injured Richard Zednik. Difference, is he survived. Also, it was his teammate so there literally would have been zero incentive to do so.

It was not even close to the Zednik play.  Just look at all the ex-NHL players who are giving their opinions.  Across the board, it seems like they all agree that Petgrave  intentionally stuck his leg out to impede Johnson.  The fact that you question whether I ahve played hockey (I have), is ridiculous.

The fact that you even ask such a bizarre question. leads me to believe that you are lying about playing hockey, or have never played organised hockey in your life.  

Edited November 17, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[Guest]

14 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Just look at all the ex-NHL players who are giving their opinions. 

Him being arrested isn't a statement of any guilt. 

14 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Across the board

They have to prove without any shade of doubt that he not only deliberately raised his foot, but used it with the intent to kick the player in the neck.

Meaning, they must prove this wasn't a player losing his balance while throwing a hit leaning forward on his load bearing leg, which will cause a foot to kick up, and rather, was a deliberate kick up.

[NAME REMOVED]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Him being arrested isn't a statement of any guilt. 

They have to prove without any shade of doubt that he not only deliberately raised his foot, but used it with the intent to kick the player in the neck.

Meaning, they must prove this wasn't a player losing his balance while throwing a hit leaning forward on his load bearing leg, which will cause a foot to kick up, and rather, was a deliberate kick up.

If Petgrave is not convicted, it just means the prosecution failed to meet the threshold of the burden of proof.  It certainly does not mean he is innocent.  It's going to be an uphill battle legally to convict him, because there is no clear consensus towards his guilt.

However, there is a pattern of recklessness and at least one of his former coaches has gone on record, stating as much, and the fact that he hated having to coach Petgrave, due to his wanton disregard for the rules. Additionally, there have been four ex-NHL players that have spoken up, and believe the kicking motion was intentional. 

We can agree to disagree.  You think it was accidental, I think it was intentional.

Edited November 18, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

there have been four ex-NHL players that have spoken up, and believe the kicking motion was intentional. 

Thats all that it is. 

Its not an easy thing to see. I have been tripped up, and had my skates come up. Heck, even higher, as am very flexible.

I played goalie. I had been focused on making a save, and accidentally hit someone hard with my stick.

Its a player I had history with, but my movements were purely in line with the puck, and save being made.

That is the tough task that will need to be proven.

Difference is I was concerned for the downed player, which to anyone would have made it obvious that it wasn't deliberate.

At those speeds while missing your check on a load bearing leg while rotating and falling forwards, how likely is it for your leg to kick up like this?

Did he show any remorse? Concern? 

Do these two have a history?

There is a lot to look at, which is where I feel will shine more light on this.

But based on the video alone, I feel he has a solid case on it being accidental, but shouldn't be seen as guilty or innocent until more facts come out.

Hockey is lightning fast.

I have destroyed sticks after letting my team down with a bad goal. I almost took a ref's head off doing so.

Purely accidental, and in the moment. Still, my fault, but in no way shape or form was injuring another the intent.

If you have played hockey, you know how fast the game is, and how easily it is to make a dumb mistake, causing someone a grievous injury.

But many of these mistakes are accidental in nature. Part of hockey.

Game of inches.

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I have destroyed sticks after letting my team down with a bad goal. I almost took a ref's head off doing so.

Haha. Well, I won't be inviting you on my team with that kind of attitude...

Are we goalie perhaps?

[SpankyMcFarland]

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

If Petgrave is not convicted, it just means the prosecution failed to meet the threshold of the burden of proof.  It certainly does not mean he is innocent.  It's going to be an uphill battle legally to convict him, because there is no clear consensus towards his guilt.

However, there is a pattern of recklessness and at least one of his former coaches has gone on record, stating as much, and the fact that he hated having to coach Petgrave, due to his wanton disregard for the rules. Additionally, there have been four ex-NHL players that have spoken up, and believe the kicking motion was intentional. 

We can agree to disagree.  You think it was accidental, I think it was intentional.

His history may make a civil suit easier. 
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12691371/NHL-Sean-Avery-Matt-Petgrave-absolutely-Adam-Johnson.html

Edited November 18, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[Guest]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Haha. Well, I won't be inviting you on my team with that kind of attitude...

Are we goalie perhaps?

As a youth, I was incredibly hard on myself. So put my team on my back. Felt I let them down after a loss.

You hopefully mellow out over time, which I did, which made me a better leader. 

I leave everything on the ice. Those "playing on the edge" players are great with the passion they bring. 

Can be a danger, when they lose control if their emotions. 

Took me a long time to learn to control my anger.

I don't see an angry play from that player. 

[NAME REMOVED]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Thats all that it is. 

Its not an easy thing to see. I have been tripped up, and had my skates come up. Heck, even higher, as am very flexible.

I played goalie. I had been focused on making a save, and accidentally hit someone hard with my stick.

Its a player I had history with, but my movements were purely in line with the puck, and save being made.

That is the tough task that will need to be proven.

Difference is I was concerned for the downed player, which to anyone would have made it obvious that it wasn't deliberate.

At those speeds while missing your check on a load bearing leg while rotating and falling forwards, how likely is it for your leg to kick up like this?

Did he show any remorse? Concern? 

Do these two have a history?

There is a lot to look at, which is where I feel will shine more light on this.

But based on the video alone, I feel he has a solid case on it being accidental, but shouldn't be seen as guilty or innocent until more facts come out.

Hockey is lightning fast.

I have destroyed sticks after letting my team down with a bad goal. I almost took a ref's head off doing so.

Purely accidental, and in the moment. Still, my fault, but in no way shape or form was injuring another the intent.

If you have played hockey, you know how fast the game is, and how easily it is to make a dumb mistake, causing someone a grievous injury.

But many of these mistakes are accidental in nature. Part of hockey.

Game of inches.

I don't believe you have ever played hockey.  You strike me as an armchair QB. Also why are you so condescending?

Edited November 18, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

I don't believe you have ever played hockey. 

Am glad we agree on something.

[NAME REMOVED]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Am glad we agree on something.

 

I apologise if I insulted you.  However, it's the internet, and for you to question me about ever playing hockey is ridiculous. Hell, we can both say that we were top ranked elite hockey players, and there is little others can do to counteract this, even though we may both be full of shot. It's the internet man, chill.

At any rate, I did play hockey up until age 15, when I excelled at a different sport. However, whether one plays hockey or not is irrelevant in this topic.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

I apologise if I insulted you. 

There is no insult. We both question whether the other played hockey.

I don't see what is insulting about it, and am glad we agreed on it.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Well, I have never played ice hockey. We can all agree on that. 

[Nationalist]

I played to Jr. And coached. I saw the video. I heard of this guy's previous adventures. He's guilty as far as I'm concerned. 

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Well, I have never played ice hockey. We can all agree on that. 

Liar.

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I played to Jr. And coached. I saw the video. I heard of this guy's previous adventures. He's guilty as far as I'm concerned. 

He may have been trying to block or trip the other player by sticking his leg out behind him as the passed behind him. Sometimes a defenceman might stick his leg out to block the out pass, with the hope it goes off their boot. It should not be very high up, but if people skate with their heads down low, adds to the risk.

That could still qualify as being manslaughter I suppose. It depends on whether they had insurance and signed waivers to accept the risk of death or injury while playing in the league.

Athletes occasionally die in other sports such as boxing, wrestling. Baseball. Archery, even. What are the legal implications of these types of injuries, should someone be convicted of manslaughter? We'd all be dressed up like them guys on the bomb-removal squad.

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

He may have been trying to block or trip the other player by sticking his leg out behind him as the passed behind him. Sometimes a defenceman might stick his leg out to block the out pass, with the hope it goes off their boot. It should not be very high up, but if people skate with their heads down low, adds to the risk.

That could still qualify as being manslaughter I suppose. It depends on whether they had insurance and signed waivers to accept the risk of death or injury while playing in the league.

Athletes occasionally die in other sports such as boxing, wrestling. Baseball. Archery, even. What are the legal implications of these types of injuries, should someone be convicted of manslaughter? We'd all be dressed up like them guys on the bomb-removal squad.

Huh...good point. I just know the guy kicked him. The kick killed the other player. Manslaughter.