Stephen Harper, Conrad Black & Richard Perle (aka Darth Vader)

[River_God]

It's funny that all the neo-cons on this site are slinging mud at the liberals for wasting tax dollars.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment. It is anybody's guess what other useless government spending Harper would have promoted.

Harper has no record of anything other than supporting neo-fascist-conservative fanaticism -- just like his buddies Richard Perle and Paul Wolfwitz mentioned at the top of this article. That's probably why the neo-con election campaign seems to be soley focused on slamming the Liberals.

[tml12]

Can you believe that these guys at the Free Dominion. blocked my access to their forum? It only took 5 minutes. The site says that it only accepts pro-conservative discussion but it calls itself the Free Dominion. What a bunch of Twisted Double-Think Fascists.

http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopi...p=604951#604951

Right-leaning folks get banned from DU all the time...you know, the "democratic" underground...

It's funny that all the neo-cons on this site are slinging mud at the liberals for wasting tax dollars.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment. It is anybody's guess what other useless government spending Harper would have promoted.

Harper has no record of anything other than supporting neo-fascist-conservative fanaticism -- just like his buddies Richard Perle and Paul Wolfwitz mentioned at the top of this article. That's probably why the neo-con election campaign seems to be soley focused on slamming the Liberals.

Your Above Post Indicates:

1) You have never studied political science.

2) You do not care that the Liberals have purchased victories in supposedly democratic elections with your tax dollars.

3) You would much rather have a party in power that tells you everything is OK while secretly taring apart Canada's social structure and environment.

4) You will probably vote Liberal and, if they win, get what you deserve.

[wellandboy]

My goodness you have been busy. Another house of cards based on innuendo, playing fast and loose with the truth. I didn't see any mention of a grassy knoll, hmm.

Naturally, it's okay for Paul Martin to have an intimate lunch with somebody that's actually been named in the scandalous Gomery scandal inquiry. He knew nothing because escargot causes amnesia.

Neo cons automatically mean neo fascist? Huh.

The Accountability Act will be the first piece of legislation the new Conservative Government will put before Parliament after January, 23,2006. If you actually took the time to read it you will see that it proposes more revolutionary openness in the Federal Goverment than the Liberals could ever come up with as they are by their record anti open and transparent government. Doesn't sound "Fascist" to me, but we wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of a good story.

[River_God]

Your Post Indicates:

1) You have never studied political science.

2) You do not care that the Liberals have purchased victories in supposedly democratic elections with your tax dollars.

3) You would much rather have a party in power that tells you everything is OK while secretly taring apart Canada's social structure and environment.

4) You will probably vote Liberal and, if they win, get what you deserve.

Last week a kid (like you tml12) challenged me to say one thing the Canadian Government has done for him. His chronic apathy signaled that no answer was possible. I laughed my head off.

We have great lives here in Canada. Most of us have decent salaries, and our biggest problems include deciding what to do with our free time. This, to a degree, is a direct result of our Government.

Just look at the Blue Pages to see all the government services we take for granted: Health Care, Education, Highways, Clean Air, Rivers and Lakes, Parks, Access to crown land, Tourism, RCMP, Disaster Relief, International Charity, Welfare, Employment Agencies.....

The Government also regulates our water quality, food quality, electricity, gas, phone and internet etc.....

Government Laws guarantee free speech, civil rights, open debates on all legislation, an independent media, and access to most other products and services we consume.

The Canadian Government has a great international image that lets us travel easily and happily almost everywhere in the world. One of the only places we can't travel (since March 2003) is Iraq.

No matter how much we complain about our government, we don't have to look very far to find Governments that are worse.

Countries like Brazil and Argentina are loaded with resources and have a much better climate than Canada, yet many of their citizens are dirt poor -- largely because of the instability caused by corruption in past governments.

That brings up a really fundament point in politics. One really big mistake can destroy years of progress. A few bombs can destroy your life's work.

Don't take our federal government too lightly, or think we need a radical policy change, or a Canadian Inquisition to make things better.

Beefing up security is probably a good thing though. It's petty to complain about needing a passport to cross the US border. I was sick on 9/11 when the media started accusing the terrorists of sneaking into the USA from Canada. It was a big relief, but still sick, that the 9/11 terrorists turned out to be trained (flight schools, karate etc..) in the USA. Bin Laden and Mohamed Atta were even on the USA payroll at one time.

I don't think our government is all that bad -- even though lots of crooks see it as a place to get easy money. It's great that we have a strong political opposition and a strong public conscience to prevent pork barreling, corruption and waste.

Despite any waste, the Liberals are doing a great job paying down Canada's debt.

We have got lots to be proud of.

[newbie]

Good post River. You are absolutely correct re lots to be proud of in this country. I wouldn't live anywhere else regardless of Federal or Provincial Governments. I also agree we don't need a radical change of government. Of course there are areas where things can be tightened up, not unlike any administration. I think if we elect a government that is going to come in and create a dramatic change, we may suffer on the international stage.

[wellandboy]

Come on people, this is starting to go to the "Who Loves Canada the Most" thing. We may disagree on politics but we all by our participation on this forum demonstrate our deep and abiding

Love for Canada

[tml12]

That was a good post River.

However, for all those reasons I am voting Conservative. Stealing my money does not justify any good things the Liberals have done (of which there are some).

The Liberal Party of Canada does one thing very well: the PR job. They make us feel proud to be Canadian. Their problem is they really don't do anything for Canada. The government laws that guarantee civil rights are also in the U.S. The Liberal Party did not create those laws.

The Liberal Party has done nothing for the environment or peace-keeping. I am very happy to have a decent life living here in Canada. We take a lot of materialistic benefits from the U.S. The U.S. protects us and ask for nothing but gratitude in return.

We may be able to travel anywhere in the world (unlike, technically, the Americans) but the Americans are the ones who have the guts to govern the world in the name of freedom and equality. Canadians travel to Europe and say we're so much different than Americans. But Europeans don't see us as much different. We many strive to be like them...but we are much more American. The U.S., after all, is our big brother.

Personal responsibility is the major issue in the Conservative platform. We need a Conservative government to ensure that we stand on an equal footing with the great nations of the world. We need to stand up for Canada and respect the benefits that we have. A vote for the Liberal Party is a vote for corruption and an inability to stand up for our country.

[River_God]

Come on people, this is starting to go to the "Who Loves Canada the Most" thing. We may disagree on politics but we all by our participation on this forum demonstrate our deep and abiding

Love for Canada

That doesn't say anything for Harper wellandboy

Why Harper was dumbstruck a few weeks ago when asked if he loved Canada?

How long do you think it would take for Harper to pledge his devotion to the USA?

As he did in the past with his neo-con pals, Harper could well, for the interest of padding trade relations with the USA, decide that Candada should back the USA on any of their future Wars (Iran, Syria and Venezuela are on Bush's hit list).

Stephen Harper’s Conservatives, after all, were infuriated that Jean Cretien wouldn’t let Canadian Soldiers die “shoulder to shoulder” with our neighbors over Iraq’s (non-existent) weapon’s of mass destruction. Canadian losses in Iraq would have far exceeded any losses in the sponsorship scandal.

Harper was also furious that Canada didn’t buy into a missile defense shield-Star Wars project that seems, at best, a titanic waste of money and, more realistically, a chilling inducement for worldwide nuclear proliferation.

You should consider why a far-right conservative like Ralph Klein would comment that Stephen Harper may be viewed as “too far right”; or why a long-term conservative leader like Joe Clark would say that he supoorts the Liberals because you don't know what you are getting with Stephen Harper.

America has clearly become unbalanced, when media giants like FOX NEWS label the biggest capitalists in the world as “left-wing” if they don’t pledge unquestioning blind allegiance to Cheney and Bush’s Administration.

The American fanatical-right (aka neo-fascist-conservatives) are trying to create a culture of double-think, where people who question the Iraq War are left-wing traitors who are endangering the troops. Stunningly, zealots who want to expand the crusade to Syria, Iran and Venezuela are supposedly keeping the troops safely out of harms way.

[tml12]

The amount of help that you need is unbearable to me...

[River_God]

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."

-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

Don't think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech at Dartmouth College, June 14, 1953

Though force can protect in emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration and co-operation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

I would rather try to persuade a man to go along, because once I have persuaded him he will stick. If I scare him, he will stay just as long as he is scared, and then he is gone.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

That was a good post River.

However, for all those reasons I am voting Conservative. Stealing my money does not justify any good things the Liberals have done (of which there are some).

Personal responsibility is the major issue in the Conservative platform. We need a Conservative government to ensure that we stand on an equal footing with the great nations of the world. We need to stand up for Canada and respect the benefits that we have. A vote for the Liberal Party is a vote for corruption and an inability to stand up for our country.

I don't agree with you TML12. The Liberal Party isn't the problem even though lots of crooks see the federal governement as place to get easy money. The same guys will be infiltrating the Conservatives government.

Bill Clinton got kicked out because of Conservatives disgust over a blowjob. That ended 8 years of amazing prosperity for Americans.

Bush has now taken the lead, and created such a huge debt that people wonder how it can be repaid. The US$ has devalued 30% in the process.

The Liberals have to clean up their act but, like I said, Harper would have cost taxpayers much more (Iraq war, missile pseudo-defence) than any waste and corruption under the Liberal government.

If you think missile pseudo-defence is a good plan, read my next post.

[betsy]

Oooops. I was not wearing my glasses. So when I saw the name Conrad Black, I thought this has something to do with the SEC.

Speaking of Conrad Black, if SEC will really get involved with the Income Trust scandal, I guess he and the Liberals will have a great deal in common. Incidentally, Conrad and Martin are not good friends of Chretien.

Gosh, maybe Chretien framed Conrad?

[tml12]

Those are all great posts River but you are defending the Liberals because you fear the Conservatives.

The missile defense plan is terrible. Yet, if we don't participate in it we only surrender our sovereignty.

Your Liberal vote comes out of your fer for Bush...which, I franky don't understand/

[River_God]

The missile defense plan is terrible. Yet, if we don't participate in it we only surrender our sovereignty.

That's an illusion tml12. How is having a bunch of useless American missiles on Canadian soil protecting our sovereignty???? At best they would ensure that Canada becomes a prime target in any nuclear war.

A “Defense Shield” sounds appealing, but many experts doubt that it will work. Recent studies by The US General Accounting Office, The American Physical Society, The Union of Concerned Scientists and former Pentagon weapons experts, all suggest that the system is similar to trying to hit a bullet with a bullet. In its current state of development, the defense shield is incapable of stopping missile that are sophisticated enough to hit the United States. The project will also start a new arms race, thwarting future developments.

It’s doubtful that any nation would launch a surprise attack on the United States. North Koreans and Iranians already know that their countries would be destroyed by a massive US retaliation against any missile attacks.

It is conceivable that al-Qaeda could obtain nuclear missiles and launch them at America. These fanatics might not care that their acts can be interpreted as an entire nation’s provocation of war. The US weapons industry might argue, but it seems al-Qaeda can be more effectively thwarted by spending money protecting ports, and collecting (not fabricating) intelligence.

According to 22-year CIA veteran Michael Scheuer, there are fewer CIA al-Qaeda experts today than there were on 2001/09/11 (The Atlantic, Dec 2004, pg 52).

If Bush doesn’t get his priorities straight, The Missile Defence Shield might well become a $500 billion pink elephant. Unlike B.C.’s Fast Ferries scam, however, the public might never know that their money was wasted.

===============

The Vancouver Sun – March 27, 2004

Washington -- A group of 49 retired U.S. generals and admirals is warning Canada to reject the Bush administration's proposed ballistic missile defense shield, complaining that the program is both too expensive and unproven to make it worthwhile. The group, which includes a former chairman of the U.S. joint chiefs of staff, also wrote George W. Bush on Friday requesting that he postpone plans to deploy the system later this year. "Tell the Canadians to hold off -- don't waste their money," retired lieutenant-general Robert Gard, a spokesman for 49 former senior American officers who oppose the missile shield, said in an interview. "If I were the Canadian prime minister, I would say: 'Look we are interested if we find out whether or not it works. And so far, we don't know.'"

Canada opened formal negotiations in January with the U.S. Defence Department aimed at reaching an agreement to participate in the national missile defence (NMD) program. The U.S. military plans to begin deploying land-based missile interceptors in Alaska and California by this September, and has waived operational testing requirements in order to meet the deadline.

http://stopwar.ca/articles/mdi/dontjoin.html

==================================

The Province, Apr. 7, 2004

Canada should reject Bush missile defence, a Jules Verne fantasy

James McNulty

High-flying arguments for Canada to join George W. Bush's missile-defence

scheme are crashing faster than popped trial balloons.

The latest broadside at the pulp-fiction dream came from American military

experts. The group of 49 ex-officers includes retired admiral William Crowe,

who chaired the joint chiefs of staff for George Bush Sr.

In a March letter to Bush Jr., the officers said the unproven

missile-defense shield should be stopped.

Its $16-billion-US budget for 2004-2005 should then be redirected to fight

terrorists who may try to bring small nuclear bombs into America, and to

beef up security at U.S. nuclear-weapons storage facilities.

"Tell the Canadians to hold off -- don't waste their money," retired

Lt.-Gen. Robert Gard recently told Sheldon Alberts of CanWest News Service.

"If I were the Canadian prime minister, I would say: 'Look, we are

interested if we find out whether or not it works. And so far, we don't

know,'" said Gard

http://www.notacolony.ca/040704A_Canada_sh...rne_fantasy.htm

==================

In fact, the current Defense shield isn't even remotely close to being effective. Many Nobel-laureate physicists have declared that the design is incapable of working effectively (much like trying to knock down a missile with a frisbee)

Even if the system did work as hoped, it would be much easier to foil it with counter-measures than to build and guide an initial ballistic missile.

Russia and China have already said they would develop counter-measures against the shield. They would obviously want to be able to foil the shield to maintain their nuclear deterrent against an aggressive strike by the USA.

Russia and China also suspect that if the Star Wars project isn't effective as a defense mechanism, that it is simply a $500 billion dollar aggressive weapons system. Because of this they are upgrading their nuclear arsenals to provide a deterrent.

With China upgrading its nuclear arsenal, India feels obliged to follow suit to defend against its historic enemy China. Pakistan, of course, will follow India's lead. this massive proliferation only increases the chances of an accident or of terrorists getting hold of a nuke.

If a terrorist did get a nuke, they would probably sneak it into the US on a $50 000 boat instead of paying hundreds of millions of dollars for a launching and guiding system. On a boat, they wouldn't even have to clear customs.

================

http://english.people.com.cn/english/20000...0707_44895.html

Nobel Scientists Says Missile Shield Would Be Dangerous

Fifty Nobel Prize laureates warned President Bill Clinton on Thursday in Washington that deployment of a National Missile Defense (NMD) shield would be "premature, wasteful, and dangerous."

In a letter addressed to Clinton, the scientists said NMD "would offer little protection and would do grave harm to this nation's core security interests."

Particularly, a dangerous arms race would unfold as new offensive weapons were developed that would render the system ineffective, according to the group, members of the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) set up in 1945 by scientists who built the first atomic bomb

+====================

You have to wonder how unstable and desperate the US government is, if a well-informed, right wing guy like CNN Founder Ted Turner publicly questions whether Bush wants to start a nuclear war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051129/ap_en_tv/people_turner_2

Media mogul Ted Turner said Monday that Iraq is no better off following the U.S.-led invasion that ousted dictator Saddam Hussein than it was before the war.

The philanthropist and founder of CNN also said the United States and Russia still have thousands of nuclear weapons pointed at each other on a "hair trigger," and he was afraid someone could make the mistake to launch them, including President Bush. You have to question ... the president on a lot of decisions he's made," Turner said in a lecture at Kansas State University. "He might just think launching those weapons would be a good thing to do. ... He thought Iraq was."

Turner also raised concerns about overpopulation, poverty and hunger. He said in the future superpowers will derive their authority from education, health care, and science and technology, and encouraged the United States to focus on those areas.

"We are going to survive together, or we are going to perish together," Turner said.

Turner’s last statement is obviously a simplification. After a nuclear war, millions of people would die slowly of radiation sickness, with their families and friends dying beside them. The rest of the world might descend into chaos (like in the Mad Max movie). It’s laughable that many religious fanatics view this (Armageddon & the End of Days) as their stepping stone to paradise.

[err]

Politicians change policies over time as circumstances require.

Like last election... standing for moral values....

We're going to stop abortions.... which got a negative reception, so days later it became:

We're not going to introduce a bill to ban abortions, but if one of our members introduces a private member's bill, we'll vote on it.... which also got a very negative reception, so days later, it changed to:

We're not going to ban abortions...

The "as circumstances require" bit you refer to is probably with respect to "getting elected", not the public's interest of values..... because if you get elected, you can force your values on the public.... but don't talk about them before the election.....

[scribblet]

Gee Shoop, I don't see a lot of your con buddies here rebutting this, and you seem a tad bit defensive. Maybe there's more than a grain of truth in River_God's accusations.

Those kind of drive by accusations aren't worth responding to, simply malicious innuendo, not worth my time. As soon as someone starts with the fascists, Hitler crap, they lose all credibility, and it trivializes true fascism.

As for the Bilderbergers, anyone who's anyone eventually is invited, Bill Clinton was an attendee and Bill Gates. But, people do thrive on conspiracy theories.

[err]

The missile defense plan is terrible. Yet, if we don't participate in it we only surrender our sovereignty.

That's an illusion tml12. How is having a bunch of useless American missiles on Canadian soil protecting our sovereignty???? At best they would ensure that Canada becomes a prime target in any nuclear war.

A “Defense Shield” sounds appealing, but many experts doubt that it will work. Recent studies by The US General Accounting Office, The American Physical Society, The Union of Concerned Scientists and former Pentagon weapons experts, all suggest that the system is similar to trying to hit a bullet with a bullet. In its current state of development, the defense shield is incapable of stopping missile that are sophisticated enough to hit the United States. The project will also start a new arms race, thwarting future developments.

It's funny that they suspended testing after Raytheon's last anti-missile test .... missed the target by more than a mile.... So rather than having embarrassing situations like this reported, which could eventually lead to a cancellation of the work, the testing stopped.... so the funding wouldn't... funny eh ?

[scribblet]

What is Stephen Harper doing at a super-secret Bilderberg meeting of the Western worlds central bankers, defense experts, press barons, royalty, prime ministers, international financiers, industrialists and government officials?

The 2003 guest list includes names such as David Rockefeller, Richard Perle (Iraq war architect, key Bush pupeteer and self-proclaimed Darth Vader), Klaus Schwab (World Economic Forum), Henry Kissinger, the King and Queen of Spain, Paul Wolfowitz (another Iraq war architect and key Bush pupeteer) and a host of other bankers, corporate heads and royalty. Some Canadians in attendance included Conrad Black, Mark Steyn (National Post) Heather Reisman (Chapters-Indigo), Anthony Fell (RBC Dominion Securities) and Stephen Harper, Leader of the Opposition

http://www.cfoss.com/harper.html

. [/b]

Oooohhh, Tin Foil hat time

[wellandboy]

Man are peoples X boxes not working tonight?

[Wilber]

What's up folks? Are the Americans having another election or am I on the wrong forum.

[River_God]

Man are peoples X boxes not working tonight?

Wellandboy, Scriblett and Wilbur should get something useful to say before they clog up this board.

Maybe Swartzenegger was right and 95% of the people are too stupid to think and need to be told what to do. The neo-con crowd has a tradition of blind faith and unquestioning obedience. They must be the guys he was talking about.

[kimmy]

"Bilderberg" is a favorite object of obsession amongst the same sorts who fixate upon "chem-trails", "orgones", or the belief that the world is controlled by 12-foot tall lizards. Bilderberg, as well as the Skull & Bones Society, have leapfrogged ahead of the Illuminati and the Gnomes of Zurich as the new hotness amongst the conspiracy crowd.

It is not terribly surprising that Stephen Harper has been to conferences attended by influential right-wing sorts. It's about as surprising as discovering that Paul Martin or Belinda Stronach are acquainted with other billionaires.

-k

[River_God]

It is not terribly surprising that Stephen Harper has been to conferences attended by influential right-wing sorts.

The Scary thing is that Harper has a history of kissing up to the worst of these guys while smearing Canada in the process.

=================

The 2003 guest list includes names such as David Rockefeller, Richard Perle (Iraq war architect, key Bush pupeteer and self-proclaimed Darth Vader), Klaus Schwab (World Economic Forum), Henry Kissinger, the King and Queen of Spain, Paul Wolfowitz (another Iraq war architect and key Bush pupeteer) and a host of other bankers, corporate heads and royalty. Canadians in attendance included Conrad Black, Mark Steyn (National Post) Heather Reisman (Chapters-Indigo), Anthony Fell (RBC Dominion Securities) and Stephen Harper, Leader of the Opposition

=============

Stephen Harper QUOTES

Human rights commissions, as they are evolving, are an attack on our fundamental freedoms and the basic existence of a democratic society... It is in fact totalitarianism. I find this is very scary stuff.

Whether Canada ends up as one national government or two national governments or several national governments, or some other kind of arrangement is, quite frankly, secondary in my opinion

===========

Richard Perle QUOTES

A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.

Acknowledge that a more closely integrated Europe is no longer an unqualified American interest.

But if the UN cannot or will not revise its rules in ways that establish beyond question the legality of the measures the United States must take to protect the American people, then we should unashamedly and explicitly reject the jurisdiction of these rules.

Dictators must have enemies. They must have internal enemies to justify their secret police and external enemies to justify their military forces.

Dictatorships start wars because they need external enemies to exert internal control over their own people.

If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage a total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now.

Richard Perle

[Yaro]

It is not terribly surprising that Stephen Harper has been to conferences attended by influential right-wing sorts. It's about as surprising as discovering that Paul Martin or Belinda Stronach are acquainted with other billionaires.

Hardly, I think you would do well to actually read up on the collective philosophies of the group that River is speaking of. He is pretty much dead on from what I can tell, I am simply surprised that such a direct link exisits between Harper and this group.

Excellent post River, I for one appreciate the information.

[kimmy]

blahblahblah

I noticed you've switched from blue script to red script. Does that mean you're "going negative"?

-k

It is not terribly surprising that Stephen Harper has been to conferences attended by influential right-wing sorts. It's about as surprising as discovering that Paul Martin or Belinda Stronach are acquainted with other billionaires.

Hardly, I think you would do well to actually read up on the collective philosophies of the group that River is speaking of. He is pretty much dead on from what I can tell, I am simply surprised that such a direct link exisits between Harper and this group.

Excellent post River, I for one appreciate the information.

It's not really news. Our friend "onlythetruth" posted all of this months ago, shortly before he was abducted by the Star Angels for rectal probing.

-k

[Wilber]

Man are peoples X boxes not working tonight?

Wellandboy, Scriblett and Wilbur should get something useful to say before they clog up this board.

Maybe Swartzenegger was right and 95% of the people are too stupid to think and need to be told what to do. The neo-con crowd has a tradition of blind faith and unquestioning obedience. They must be the guys he was talking about.

I wonder why it is that Canadian elections are always about the Americans. What would we do without them? We might actually have to figure something out for ourselves. Man this country is insecure.