Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 30 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Play the American game if you want what is the American game ? Jean Chretien demanded that the Sea King replacement not be the AW101 which he cancelled in a political stunt but the CF wanted a larger aircraft than SH-60, something like the Sea King which AW101 was made to replace but other than AW101, such a helicopter did not exist so the Americans pitched a ground up development of a totally new platform, derived from the MH-92 due to political interference by the corrupt & inept political class, DND didn't really have any other option how is that the America's fault ? quite sure if the Pentagon was consulted they would have said, "don't be dumb, Canada, just buy from our SH-60 active production line" but since Canada insisted, the Americans launched into a full scale development program just for 28 helicopters whatever Canada, it's your money, America is not in charge of how you spend it Edited February 29 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 46 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: So, 36 Cyclones (minus the crashed one) will be more than enough. how do you get to 36 ? Canada only ordered 28 Cyclones moreover, the issue is not how many Canada has but how expensive they are to operate, when there are only 27 of them in the world you don't even understand logistics economies of scale ? for a supposed all knowing procurement god like you, those are pretty glaring mistakes Edited February 29 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: how do you get to 36 ? Canada only ordered 28 Cyclones moreover, the issue is not how many Canada has but how expensive they are to operate, when there are only 27 of them in the world you don't even understand logistics economies of scale ? for a supposed all knowing procurement god like you, those are pretty glaring mistakes OK, 28. Look, as much as you don't like it, we got what we and wanted and we pay for operation, regardless of cost. Diddly sh1t you can do about it. I was part of a team that bought what the Military wanted. Sikorsky is responsible for then service support, $5.8 billion contract for it. Become aware. https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/ch-148-cyclone.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 37 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: what is the American game ? .... Your constant comparison out CH148 to whatever American helicopter or capability game. We ain't American and we got what we, Canada wanted. and, I am pretty sure the Navy and Air Force could not care less what you think. Your politics does not matter sh1t. Suck it up buttercup, Canada got exactly what Canada wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: OK, 28. Look, as much as you don't like it I don't dislike the CH-148 in the end, Canada wastes so much money, the procurement disaster of CH-148 is a mere drop in the bucket I'm glad the troops at Shearwater & Pat Bay got something to replace the Sea King whatever, it's the least of Canada's problems at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, ExFlyer said: Suck it up buttercup, Canada got exactly what Canada wanted. sure, Canada is a world leader in military procurement when it comes to getting what Canada wants the main thing was to provide political cover for Jean Chretien for his cancelling the AW101 propping the Liberal Party up is all that matters to the Government of Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: sure, Canada is a world leader in military procurement when it comes to getting what Canada wants the main thing was to provide political cover for Jean Chretien for his cancelling the AW101 propping the Liberal Party up is all that matters to the Government of Canada Canada procurement purchases what Canada wants. No other reason. 28 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I don't dislike the CH-148 in the end, Canada wastes so much money, the procurement disaster of CH-148 is a mere drop in the bucket I'm glad the troops at Shearwater & Pat Bay got something to replace the Sea King whatever, it's the least of Canada's problems at this point Ha Ha Ha. Don't care what you like or don't. Canadian Military personnel are very happy with what they got. You can keep whining and playing politics but it is what it is and the Military is happy....and what you think is totally unimportant and makes no difference LOL. Edited February 29 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 Just now, ExFlyer said: Don't care what you like or don't. of course you do you've said yourself that it is the reason behind your obsessive hater stalking you don't like what I like, and it drives you to chase me around the forum hijacking threads just to talk about me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: of course you do you've said yourself that it is the reason behind your obsessive hater stalking you don't like what I like, and it drives you to chase me around the forum hijacking threads just to talk about me Give it a rest you basement dwelling troll. I do not worship murders so yeah, i don't like what you like LOL I have never chased you anywhere, nor would I. You come to me LOL, like you are now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 11 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: You can keep whining that's rich since your version of the Canadian military basically posts like some bitter ex-girlfriend whom I dumped many years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, ExFlyer said: Give it a rest you basement dwelling troll. I do not worship murders so yeah, i don't like what you like LOL I have never chased you anywhere, nor would I. You come to me LOL, like you are now any publicity is good publicity on an internet forum so I'll just bask in you bringing up my posts and talking about me ceaselessly knock yourself out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: that's rich since your version of the Canadian military basically posts like some bitter ex-girlfriend whom I dumped many years ago Just now, Dougie93 said: any publicity is good publicity on an internet forum so I'll just bask in you bringing up my posts and talking about me ceaselessly knock yourself out Oh doogie... you are so sad. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 5 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: you are so sad Canada is sad the Canadian military is an international laughing stock tampons in every male washroom in the CF : Canada's highest military imperative now can't get sadder than that but whatever, I'll get over it through adversity, to the stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 57 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Canada is sad . through adversity, to the stars Nope, just you. Per ardua ad astra Air Force, I knew you would come around LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 3 hours ago, ExFlyer said: 10 year postings have been around since the 90's. The military is not mandated to provide housing for it's personnel. What I said and stand by is that a private, with 3 years in makes $62K a year and that is more than the average Canadian salary. Can they afford a home? Probably not but neither can civilians and there is my comparison. Is the recruiting crisis the military's fault or a societal issue? Way back when, the Army always had a recruitment problem. Enticing young people to become a grunt and go fight in the mud and muck is difficult. The young people these days are not built that way. But, that is a totally different topic All I said was that when the Army is deployed, they get deployment and danger pay, on top of their salary. How they spend it, is up to them but they do not have to use their salary to obtain extras. For sure there are differences between Military and civilian but the discussion was salary and your claim we are all entitled to or have the right to own a home, and that is incorrect. The salary today is much better than wh we were in. My point is in the 90's even 2000's we had plenty of PMQ's home were in the affordable range, most military couples preferred life in their own homes, away from the military rules and policies...many PMQ's sat empty, and up keep cost just kept rising...so then comes the plan to tear a full 1/3 of them down...reduce the wastage, at the time it sounded like good policy....today only open fields stand in their place... Covid hits prices of everything go through the roof..rental units are full, new homes are priced out of reach , older homes have doubled in price once again priced out of reach for most single people...lack of PMQ's only add to the problem, with list to get a PMQ's taking as long as 3to 4 years... Here is the mandated part...each base must be able to house what they call surge in time of crises...meaning if war breaks out tommorrow it must be able to handle the dependents of those over seas, to safe guard them...plus any other units that might be moved to that part of the country....under one roof so to speak....it also must be able to handle any other governmental emergence say forest fire evac, refugees like gagetown did in the 90's with a group of asian people i can't completely remember... but they did look after thousands... Would you join the military and take a posting to Halifax if you knew you had 2 options conch surf, or live in a tent... I would not...add that to all the other failings and i would not recommend the military to anyone...The fact both my son and daughter are in , they joined in better times... Who would you blame it on....in this case Military is fully responsible...for the housing issue, pay issue, and many others...I've also blamed Canadians for a lot of their problems as well just hard to blame them when DND could have dropped a billion and built thousands of new PMQ's and single quarters...a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things... Infantry has attracted many young people, it is a young mans game and turnover is very high, it's hard on the mind and body...like i said when i was CSM, a large portion of my troops had university/ collages degrees, and when asked why they wanted the adventure of world travel and blowing shit up....Army recruiting guys made all that tough shit look cool, flying around in helos, jumping pout of planes, tanks IFV...all looked super cool ... my dad took to the recruiting office and told the recruiter i wanted an air force trade...he'd already done a large stint as an infanteer, then transferred to air force admin clerk....once he left i told the recruiter, no way, i was 5 th generation , that served in RCR, PPCLI, Queen's own, RNBR, spanning 3 major conflicts, i was not going to be the first Air force guy in the family...I loved it so much i spent all my career in it... Yes foreign duty allowance and other duty pays are nice, back in my day i had maxed out which is like another payday, but it cost you in other ways, time away from your family, a regular life style, but hard to earn after Afghanistan...not many deployments these days... The troops will always spend money on gouchie items that make their life's much better...kit is getting better, but it is in short supply...but they have not solved all of the clothing issues yet... As for salary, not many civilian jobs requires you to sign on to unlimited liability...police men, which have a much higher rate of pay, take a look at RCMP pay scales and they will shock you....you think a cpl makes good money...wait to you see a 4 th year RCMP officer....fire men not sure on the pay scale but those civvies in the military were making much...more than the... military... when was the last time you remembered a SAR tech refusing to save anyone regardless of the dangers...I use to think that all air force people were the same soft as F*ck...I was involved in teaching some air force pilots escape and evasion in Wainwright Alberta ...which confirmed that thought...very soft....grown men crying soft...then i seen media footage of 2 SAR techs jumping out of a herc onto a small sheet of ice to save a young Inuit boy...and i said that had to take balls lots of balls...Army sized balls, the earned my respect well SAR techs anyways... Yes salary dollar for dollar is much better, but we could buy more with our dollar in the 90's, 2000...homes were not a million plus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 4 hours ago, ExFlyer said: I think so many on the outside are not in line with what a requirement specification is. I can assure you that it is not a rectal pluck. It is a long drawn put process. The teams, and it is a large one, including all the specialists and planners and whomever has stake in it go to great lengths to get as much as possible. The request for proposals (RFP) then go out and bidders try to convince us to buy their product. We do not always get exactly what we want but, the planners and high level folks know what we want and take what is needed for our policies and tactical needs. Some of what is in the RFP is secret and cannot be divulged as that can give away our secret plans or military tactics to what is in essence public. Our senior planners also have input into the evaluation of the bidders to ensure our capabilities will be as they planned for. So, this discussion of missiles and other extraneous equipment was not what the Military wanted and so, did not get it. Regretting not getting missiles on a ASW helicopter is only useless talk on this forum by a few unknowing people. Canada will not and never has procured for the "future". So we get what we want. EDIT: I forgot, the other thing we always want in anything we buy is that it is multi functional I speak through my experience at NDHQ as a military man, as a member of SAR helicopter procurement beginning to delivery. Then as a public servant in a MHP procurement as a contract manager. I get it, did some time over at trails and evolutions unit in Gagetown..got an inside glimpse of what goes on...what we found is the equipment chosen for testing in most cases barely meet specs or completely missed the mark...what i also found is that once our results were handed in, they really did not make much of a difference in some cases...be it for political reasons, or outside interference or DND interference... where testing results where way laided to the back of report or re written to favor another products...All of this happen after the fact it had gone through RFP process...the whole process needs to be streamlined, and fixed...it should not take close to 20 years to get a new tac vest...or 9mm pistol...that might cost only millions of dollars , not billions From my experience atleast on the Army side most times the best people were not chosen for the project...those with the experience are normally kept at one of the BN'S , and those not so good got these tasking as they came up, want to get rid of a guy send him to Ottawa....Not saying that happens all the time, but in the Infantry everything in your career is on a time table, miss a timing and your career interrupted, or even stopped... ...and nothing on the time table says ottawa...take mine for example i missed my window to make chief...and was passed over due to no french language profile and finally age... And some how we skipped the multi functional requirement in this case , by forgetting to purchase or include in the purchase a weapons package which is short sightedness or for some reason forgotten... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: I get it, did some time over at trails and evolutions unit in Gagetown..got an inside glimpse of what goes on...what we found is the equipment chosen for testing in most cases barely meet specs or completely missed the mark...what i also found is that once our results were handed in, they really did not make much of a difference in some cases...be it for political reasons, or outside interference or DND interference... where testing results where way laided to the back of report or re written to favor another products...All of this happen after the fact it had gone through RFP process...the whole process needs to be streamlined, and fixed...it should not take close to 20 years to get a new tac vest...or 9mm pistol...that might cost only millions of dollars , not billions From my experience atleast on the Army side most times the best people were not chosen for the project...those with the experience are normally kept at one of the BN'S , and those not so good got these tasking as they came up, want to get rid of a guy send him to Ottawa....Not saying that happens all the time, but in the Infantry everything in your career is on a time table, miss a timing and your career interrupted, or even stopped... ...and nothing on the time table says ottawa...take mine for example i missed my window to make chief...and was passed over due to no french language profile and finally age... And some how we skipped the multi functional requirement in this case , by forgetting to purchase or include in the purchase a weapons package which is short sightedness or for some reason forgotten... In my only exp0erince with 2 major crown projects, the persons that were writing the requirements a were all part of the operational group involved (SAR and Maritime Patrol ASW folks). When it came to the evaluation phase, the bids were divided up into their specialty sections. For SAR, there were the pilots, the flight engineers, the SAR techs,m the mechanics and then there was general, weather adaptability, range avionics etc. For the Maritime helicopter, there were pilots, navigators, tactical officers, weapons officers, mechanics etc. As for multi functionality, that was in the RFP, decided by present and potentially future operational needs as deemed necessary by the military doctrine for each weapon system we use . There was nothing "skipped" or "missed". A very huge effort was made in order to get what we needed and wanted and, as I keep saying, we got exactly what we wanted. Could there have been more? For sure but, when and how do you stop. I do not know how things work in the Army (except they must also follow procurement procedures) but with aircraft, you are every much restricted by weight. The more you add, the more the aircraft weighs the less the range and effective mission capability. Aircraft are mostly singular operational weapons. That is why, as I tried to explain earlier, helicopters, be they the H92 or Seahawk or Bell, they have so many variants of each airframe to do their specialty work. No all singing all dancing machine . Sort of like a rifle that can do it all but it is too heavy for a soldier to carry and load. Something has to go to make it useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 13 hours ago, Army Guy said: My point is in the 90's even 2000's we had plenty of PMQ's home were in the affordable range, most military couples preferred life in their own homes, away from the military rules and policies...many PMQ's sat empty, and up keep cost just kept rising...so then comes the plan to tear a full 1/3 of them down...reduce the wastage, at the time it sounded like good policy....today only open fields stand in their place... Covid hits prices of everything go through the roof..rental units are full, new homes are priced out of reach , older homes have doubled in price once again priced out of reach for most single people...lack of PMQ's only add to the problem, with list to get a PMQ's taking as long as 3to 4 years... Here is the mandated part...each base must be able to house what they call surge in time of crises...meaning if war breaks out tommorrow it must be able to handle the dependents of those over seas, to safe guard them...plus any other units that might be moved to that part of the country....under one roof so to speak....it also must be able to handle any other governmental emergence say forest fire evac, refugees like gagetown did in the 90's with a group of asian people i can't completely remember... but they did look after thousands... Would you join the military and take a posting to Halifax if you knew you had 2 options conch surf, or live in a tent... I would not...add that to all the other failings and i would not recommend the military to anyone...The fact both my son and daughter are in , they joined in better times... Who would you blame it on....in this case Military is fully responsible...for the housing issue, pay issue, and many others...I've also blamed Canadians for a lot of their problems as well just hard to blame them when DND could have dropped a billion and built thousands of new PMQ's and single quarters...a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things... Infantry has attracted many young people, it is a young mans game and turnover is very high, it's hard on the mind and body...like i said when i was CSM, a large portion of my troops had university/ collages degrees, and when asked why they wanted the adventure of world travel and blowing shit up....Army recruiting guys made all that tough shit look cool, flying around in helos, jumping pout of planes, tanks IFV...all looked super cool ... my dad took to the recruiting office and told the recruiter i wanted an air force trade...he'd already done a large stint as an infanteer, then transferred to air force admin clerk....once he left i told the recruiter, no way, i was 5 th generation , that served in RCR, PPCLI, Queen's own, RNBR, spanning 3 major conflicts, i was not going to be the first Air force guy in the family...I loved it so much i spent all my career in it... Yes foreign duty allowance and other duty pays are nice, back in my day i had maxed out which is like another payday, but it cost you in other ways, time away from your family, a regular life style, but hard to earn after Afghanistan...not many deployments these days... The troops will always spend money on gouchie items that make their life's much better...kit is getting better, but it is in short supply...but they have not solved all of the clothing issues yet... As for salary, not many civilian jobs requires you to sign on to unlimited liability...police men, which have a much higher rate of pay, take a look at RCMP pay scales and they will shock you....you think a cpl makes good money...wait to you see a 4 th year RCMP officer....fire men not sure on the pay scale but those civvies in the military were making much...more than the... military... when was the last time you remembered a SAR tech refusing to save anyone regardless of the dangers...I use to think that all air force people were the same soft as F*ck...I was involved in teaching some air force pilots escape and evasion in Wainwright Alberta ...which confirmed that thought...very soft....grown men crying soft...then i seen media footage of 2 SAR techs jumping out of a herc onto a small sheet of ice to save a young Inuit boy...and i said that had to take balls lots of balls...Army sized balls, the earned my respect well SAR techs anyways... Yes salary dollar for dollar is much better, but we could buy more with our dollar in the 90's, 2000...homes were not a million plus... OK, this can go on forever as our opinions slightly differ. Most Canadians would rather live in their own home than rent...same as military. Your "mandate" that military has to house families is not true. You may wish it to be but it is not. Time away from your family is a known entity when you join the Army and Navy (not so much Air Force but it can as well). You there fore get deployment, danger and sea pay. I have relatives in Police and RCMP. Yes, they recently got a pretty big raise. They are in a potential life and death situation every day. SAR is one of those jobs that more often than not is dangerous. We get called out in all weather and more in bad weather than good. Yes, the SAR Techs are the ones that go down the hoist or jump in but the helicopter crew are the ones hovering against the mountainside or in the fog or in the dark, their risk is equal. We are not civilian. We knew what we were getting into. My point in the beginning of this discussion with you was there is no right or entitlement to have or own a house. I also said and have shown that Military pay is actually very good, better than the average Canadian. The lifestyle? Well it is something we knew about when we joined and we joined nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 6 hours ago, ExFlyer said: OK, this can go on forever as our opinions slightly differ. Most Canadians would rather live in their own home than rent...same as military. Your "mandate" that military has to house families is not true. You may wish it to be but it is not. Time away from your family is a known entity when you join the Army and Navy (not so much Air Force but it can as well). You there fore get deployment, danger and sea pay. I have relatives in Police and RCMP. Yes, they recently got a pretty big raise. They are in a potential life and death situation every day. SAR is one of those jobs that more often than not is dangerous. We get called out in all weather and more in bad weather than good. Yes, the SAR Techs are the ones that go down the hoist or jump in but the helicopter crew are the ones hovering against the mountainside or in the fog or in the dark, their risk is equal. We are not civilian. We knew what we were getting into. My point in the beginning of this discussion with you was there is no right or entitlement to have or own a house. I also said and have shown that Military pay is actually very good, better than the average Canadian. The lifestyle? Well it is something we knew about when we joined and we joined nonetheless. I agree to disagree,our opinions are to far apart. I sure that is true... Military is mandated for operational reasons to hold x amount of housing for surge operations...Moving entire units across the country where would you put them, in tents... Yes you do for good reason, most of the time it involves putting your life at risk.. Thats a load of crap...yes there job does have a danger to it...but not all are exposed to these high levels of danger everyday...certainly no to the level of say jumping out of an aircraft, diving, handling explosives, doing a BN level live fire exercise with all modes of combat systems including fast air and helo support etc etc ... My son in-law is with the police services making 40 to 50 k more than i did as a MWO...that was 85 K a year, and he just joined them transfering from being an MP... and thats provincial cops, RCMP are making more than that....And while i don't want to take away the respect i have for them, facing danger everyday is not true...much like a soldier life is not in danger everyday in a combat zone... I think DND has a responsibility to it's soldiers to house them if needed...And i get it things change as they are no longer required...like DND reason for tearing down so many PMQ's, and of course reasoning that they were not being used and it is a cost saving issue...PMQ and single housing has been a thorn in DND side from the start...when my dad joined he had to ask permission to get married, and move into PMQ's of course they had enough back in those days...what was the reason for all those PMQ;s in the first place... Below is the Canadian average wage, please not this is AFTER taxes...making this gross number much higher placing it some where in the 80 K mark...note these are 2019 numbers i can only assume they are much higher...today. Quote The median after-tax income of Canadian families and unattached individuals was $62,900 in 2019. This was virtually unchanged from the previous year. Canada's official poverty rate fell to 10.1% in 2019, down 0.9 percentage points. While these estimates are for 2019, emerging evidence for 2020 suggests that COVID-related pandemic benefits may have offset increases in low income for many Canadian families. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I think DND has a responsibility to it's soldiers to house them if needed... I think DND has a responsibility to provide you with three hots and a cot in barracks but if you want to get married and have three kids ? I don't think DND will ever be to afford the amenities which would satisfy you, within the budgetary reality troops are going to want Canadian suburbia levels of amenities and that is astronomically expensive now, in the inflationary environment, incited by the BoC I would suggest that the only realistic option is to turn to the private sector troops will have to pay a significant amount of their paycheques for Suburbia but DND subsidizes it, the troops don't pay the market rate, they get a discount because in order to get what you want, there is going to have to be a profit incentive you don't get expansion with all the frills, unless there is a business case for it Edited March 2 by Dougie93 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: I agree to disagree,our opinions are to far apart. I sure that is true... Military is mandated for operational reasons to hold x amount of housing for surge operations...Moving entire units across the country where would you put them, in tents... Yes you do for good reason, most of the time it involves putting your life at risk.. Thats a load of crap...yes there job does have a danger to it...but not all are exposed to these high levels of danger everyday...certainly no to the level of say jumping out of an aircraft, diving, handling explosives, doing a BN level live fire exercise with all modes of combat systems including fast air and helo support etc etc ... My son in-law is with the police services making 40 to 50 k more than i did as a MWO...that was 85 K a year, and he just joined them transfering from being an MP... and thats provincial cops, RCMP are making more than that....And while i don't want to take away the respect i have for them, facing danger everyday is not true...much like a soldier life is not in danger everyday in a combat zone... I think DND has a responsibility to it's soldiers to house them if needed...And i get it things change as they are no longer required...like DND reason for tearing down so many PMQ's, and of course reasoning that they were not being used and it is a cost saving issue...PMQ and single housing has been a thorn in DND side from the start...when my dad joined he had to ask permission to get married, and move into PMQ's of course they had enough back in those days...what was the reason for all those PMQ;s in the first place... Below is the Canadian average wage, please not this is AFTER taxes...making this gross number much higher placing it some where in the 80 K mark...note these are 2019 numbers i can only assume they are much higher...today. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm Ok, so, I agree that the military needs to house its military members when deployed. I also agree it is the Military responsibility to house them if needed but you were saying the Military is mandated to house the families. That is not true. What I said was that police can be in danger every day, not that they are. Your examples are things the military does, but not every day either. DND never tore down any housing. The housing managed by CFHA. While PLD is being phased out, Canadian Forces Housing Differential (CFHD) has replaced it and it seems to be better than the old PLD. "The rates are calculated so that Canadian Forces members are not required to spend 25% or more of their monthly income on housing." https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/benefits/canadian-forces-housing-differential/cfhd-faqs.html. No civilian gets any subsidy, especially guaranteed to ensure no more than 25% of their salary is for housing. An apprentices soldier, military member, as I have shown is getting paid quite well. The average apprentice pay in Ontario is about $14 per hour. A lot less than military pay. After a 3 year apprenticeship a soldier makes over $72K per year. Anyway, good discussion and I think I will end now. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 all these previously existing problems, the budget, equipment, housing, etcetera pale in significance to the overall collapse of esprit de corps nobody wants to join the Woke transgender freak show military which declares itself to be a White Supremacist organization which must be dismantled when you read the latest issue of the Canadian Military Journal it's literally all Communist sedition calling for the dismantling of the armed forces as a warrior instituion replacing it with a radical "Feminist Indigenous" Marxist Lenninist People's Army the cultural revolution is overthrowing the state in a sort of coup de tat and they know that taking out the military is the most important component of that one could actually suspect that the Chinese Communists in Beijing are actively involved behind the scenes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: all these previously existing problems, the budget, equipment, housing, etcetera .... nobody wants to join the Woke transgender freak show military .... Canadian military recruiting was problematic way farther back. The Military has been unable to recruit for many decades... long before woke meant more than disturbing your sleep. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 Just now, ExFlyer said: Canadian military recruiting was problematic way farther back. The Military has been unable to recruit for many decades... long before woke meant more than disturbing your sleep. LOL it's more about who the government is trying to recruit the military has always depended on white male heterosexual conservatives from small towns that was the backbone of the CF but now the government is actively trying to drive these boys away, or out of the military meanwhile, Woke transgenders from the cities are not taking up the slack by joining in droves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 getting back to PMQ's another barrier to expansion I would point out is that Canada simply doesn't have any excess construction capacity there isn't nearly enough construction workers to build the highly profitable houses for civilians so even of the government wanted to spend the money to build government PMQ's there isn't actually anybody available to build them like I work in real estate, construction & logistics and I can tell you that we have all the materials to build houses but we just don't have the framers and immigration is not solving the problem because the immigrants that Canada recruits simply do not want to be construction workers, particularly outdoors in Canadian winter if you go to a construction site, you will see all the framers, plumbers, electricians, etetera those are all white males from Canada there are practically no immigrants working on construction sites at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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