Good News for "Swing" voters

[Canuck E Stan]

Supreme Court swings in favour of group-sex clubs

Swingers clubs that feature group sex and partner-swapping are legal because they cause society no harm, the Supreme Court of Canada said Wednesday in a ruling that rewrote the definition of indecency.

Swingers clubs that feature group sex and partner-swapping are legal because they cause society no harm, the Supreme Court of Canada said Wednesday in a ruling that rewrote the definition of indecency.

They rewrote the definition of indecency to it doesn't cause society no harm.

Gee,what else doesn't cause society no harm that we can legalize?

How about walking to work nude? Might be indecent,but causes society no harm.

How about sex in public? Indecent again,but doesn't cause society any harm.

Did they open up a can of worms?

[Slavik44]

You forgot to add showing your ankles in public.

Anyways seeing as how the judge said it for me I will just copy paste

"Consensual conduct behind code-locked doors can hardly be supposed to jeopardize a society as vigorous and tolerant as Canadian society,"

"No one was pressured to have sex, paid for sex, or treated as a mere sexual object for the gratification of others."

I think the quote below more or less answers your question...

The Supreme Court, although not specific about what types of sexual behaviour would remain criminal under the revamped indecency test, said courts must consider whether it causes psychological harm, degradation, or victimization.

It is hard to see what goes on outside of public view and out of the way of unwilling participants as degrading or victimizing in anyway. However I would imagine that if you showed up to work naked 1) you would get fired 2) You might be seen by a child--of which it could be concluded to be degrading, victimizing, maybe even causing psychological harm the same could be said for having sex in front of toys R us.

[August1991]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision. In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

----

This decision concerns Quebec. That's all.

[tml12]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision.  In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

----

This decision concerns Quebec.  That's all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true August. Montreal has had its fair share of controversy regarding these sexual issues and, frankly, this will put that to rest.

What is my opinion on this issue? Well, as long as you are old enough to understand what sex is and what STDs are, then, go for it. Just don't sue the club if you get screwed (pardon the pun).

[PocketRocket]

They rewrote the definition of indecency to it doesn't cause society no harm.

Which, when you think about it, makes a great deal of sense.

Not only does it not cause harm, but because it is behind closed and locked doors, and out of public sight, it does not even cause anyone any annoyance.

Gee,what else doesn't cause society no harm that we can legalize?

Well, pot would be a good start

Seriously, would you have put stuff on the books like they still have in some of the US states???

Like making it illegal to have oral sex, even with your own spouse.

"Indecent" is a subjective term.

We need more objectivity in law.

How about walking to work nude? Might be indecent,but causes society no harm.

True, but as previously stated, this would NOT be behind closed doors, and may well upset many people, thereby, yes, causing harm of a sort.

How about sex in public? Indecent again,but doesn't cause society any harm.

I don't know that it is indecent, but again, may upset many people's personal sense of propriety.

A great Prime Minister once said "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation".

A wise choice of words.

Did they open up a can of worms?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably, but then again, don't "they" always???

BTW, anyone know the address of any of these clubs ???

[August1991]

Check out the cartoon in Le Devoir this morning.

Going into a swingers club, Harper says to Charest: "Wait until you see my constititutional position. You'll love it."

Charest answers: "That'll be a change."

[speaker]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision.  In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

----

This decision concerns Quebec.  That's all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true August. Montreal has had its fair share of controversy regarding these sexual issues and, frankly, this will put that to rest.

What is my opinion on this issue? Well, as long as you are old enough to understand what sex is and what STDs are, then, go for it. Just don't sue the club if you get screwed (pardon the pun).

we won't "hear from Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities ....."

You poor, poor person

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[newbie]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision.  In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a rather bigoted statement. Do you really believe that?

[Drea]

I know a couple who are members of a swing group.

Not my cup of tea, but it certainly shouldn't be ILLEGAL for pete's sake.

What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business. Nor is it the business of religion or govt.

Good to see that people who participate in such groups will not be prosecuted.

[August1991]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision.  In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a rather bigoted statement. Do you really believe that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't intended to be bigoted, although I'll admit it's rather gauche.

Having read through various web sites about the Liberal candidate in Mississaugua, Omar Alghabra, I realized that Canadian political parties happily use "minorities" for photo ops but don't expect them to express an opinion about moral issues such as swinger clubs - certainly not an opinion expressed from their own religious vantage point.

In any case, Christian prudes will offer enough commentary.

----

This decision is specific to Montreal and I don't think it's controversial although it opens up a broader question of legalizing prostitution which would be an issue, I think.

IMV, moral issues should be decided locally as much as possible. I haven't read the Supreme Court's decsion but I'm surprised they didn't find a way to avoid the question. Canada doesn't need to have the same rule about swingers clubs everywhere.

[Leafless]

Media has it Chief Beverley Mc.Lachlin says " As members of a diverse society, we must be prepared to TOLERATE conduct of which we disapprove."

"Moral views even as strongly held, do not suffice."

Legal experts described this as a Liberal move.

The Supreme Court, although were not specific about what types of sexual behavior would remain criminal under the revamped indecency test, and said courts must consider whether it causes psychogical harm, degradation, or victimization.

Why is it Quebec is the foerunner in niceties like:

Adscam

Bill-101

Continual separation threats

1st with homosexual marriage

Anti-Americanism

Anti-corporal punishment

Karla Homolka and similar legal decissions

King of private health care clinics

Adversion against well equipped military.

Origies

Sorry, I for one simply will not tolerate adverse negative changes in Canadian society that could have a major negative impact on my children and family.

[Argus]

I will expect a "shocked" response from Protestant Canada to this decision.  In addition, there will be the "shocked" Catholic Irish Canada response.

We will not hear from the "shocked" Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim Canada coimmunities because, well, they are small and clueless - except in political photos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a rather bigoted statement. Do you really believe that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The media doesn't ever ask or care what minority groups think on moral issues. I'm not entirely certain why. But you can be sure they will ask some small c social conservative group their opinion, or carry the opinon of this or that church group. They always do. No one ever asks minority clerics their opinion. The only reason I can think of is that the media don't want to portray minorities as socially conservative and prefer portraying White Christians as the regressive dinosaurs.

[Shakeyhands]

Will those that disagree with this ruling please explain how it will in fact affect them?

[Leafless]

Shakeyhands

You wrote- " Will those who disagree with this ruling how it will in fact effect them."

It should be noted how Paul Martin and the Liberals like to emphasis the point of separation of church and state and any influence mainly the Christian religion has on Canadians that are not Christian to the point Mr. Martin himself will not even say "MERRY CHRISTMAS."

Why is not Mr. Martin so backward when it comes to supporting Christianity when he invades the minds of many Canadians who object to gay marriage that they must be tolerant of what many see as a perverted in nature and very objectionable for many reasons.

Now back to swingers clubs.

According to media reports there are 35 swingers clubs in Canada but hundreds more unofficial clubs in private homes.

How this will effect me is the same way legalized prositution will affect me as it could become a tempting alternative the same way I believe casino's have the ability to distort certain peoples ability concerning common sense to cause one to loose everthing someone owns due to the temptation of basic greed except in this instance it encourages excessive sexual indulgence which could have severe personal ramifications and or contribute to the spread of STD's.

But rather me, I would be more concerned with what it does to society at large especially when membership grows and a lot of women young and old could be viewed and treated as nothing more than a desirable piece of meat by especially men who have become sexually corrupt concerning their own personal outlook on life and sex and could target these women as prey or a potential sexual conquest.

This could very well result or could result in the degradation of society and leads to the disintergration of morals and personal values and destroy people and families.

[pharmer]

The suggestion should be made that this new definition will not have the sweeping social impacts that are being discussed in this thread. There will not be a mad rush of young people to these swinger clubs and it is unlikely that we will begin to see, with alarming regularity, couples engaging in sexual intercourse on the bus-stop bench.

The fact is, this type of sexual practice, and many others you could only envision in your worst adolescent dream, has been performed since the beginning of time. Now that society is beginning to recognize that these practices may be occurring in homes, and clubs, in our communities, social conservatives are envisioning the "degradation of society and... the disintegration of morals and personal values which destroy people and families."

Why is it that some feel the need to invoke judgments on individuals because of their habits and social practices? What does this attitude accomplish and why are some pre-occupied by what takes place in the neighbours bedroom. MYOB

"As members of a diverse society, we must be prepared to tolerate conduct of which we disapprove."-- http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...3fb1184&k=46743

As for the raising our children; a young person who recognizes what a swinger club is, who realizes what occurs at such an establishment, will feel less compelled to engage is such activities if that person understands that these are only superficial needs that are being satisfied in such a situation. Morals cannot be developed through fear, understanding facilitates good decision making.

Honesty and enlightenment will always prevail above distrust and denial.

[Leafless]

pharmer

You wrote- " Why is it some feel the need to invoke judgement on individuals because of their habits and social and social practices."

I think it's because it deviates from what society considers the 'norm'.

Currently we have the federal government trying hard to implement discriminatory official bilingualism outside of their jurisdiction in provinces and cities and have met with success in cities like Ottawa. And even within federal jurisdiction it is outright discrimination as government is not in the positon to impose linguistic values period without the consent of Canadians.

The same goes with SSM and now swingers clubs as the feds or the Supreme Court cannot impose items concerning morals which of course they view as a right thus overiding what in fact the majority of Canadians feel comfortable with in a moral sense concerning basic values.

This badly confuses the concept of what is right and what is wrong and what is normal or commonly accepted by most Canadians.

I would like to know how any government can implement morals and values under the guise of rights.

This is absolute proof that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is badly flawed in favour of a totalitarian style government and ignores the democratic right of Canadians to decide themselves what is right for Canada on important issues.

I honestly believe the Liberal Party of Canada can no longer be trusted and is not competent to run this country and if Canadians cannot see the Liberals hidden agenda of transforming Canada into a cheap republic that greatly benefits certain minorities consisting of a transfer of powers to the politcal interest of a certain province then the country will not exist as we know it with English Canadians assuming the role of possibly second, third or fourth class citizens at the mercy of basically all current minorities.

[newbie]

...the country will not exist as we know it with English Canadians assuming the role of possibly second, third or fourth class citizens at the mercy of basically all current minorities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And all this over a little sex.

[BubberMiley]

I would rather have a totalitarian society where people are free to do as they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, than a totalitarian society where fundamentalist nutcases can dictate their morals to me. Now a few hits from the bong.

[I Miss Trudeau]

This is absolute proof that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is badly flawed in favour of a totalitarian style government and ignores the democratic right of Canadians to decide themselves what is right for Canada on important issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're busy lamenting the demise of the ability for people like you to dictate what others can do in their own homes and businesses, and then throw around accusations of totalitarianism?

Priceless.

[Shakeyhands]

Shakeyhands

You wrote- " Will those who disagree with this ruling how it will in fact effect them."

It should be noted how Paul Martin and the Liberals like to emphasis the point of separation of church and state and any influence mainly the Christian religion has on Canadians that are not Christian to the point Mr. Martin himself will not even say "MERRY CHRISTMAS."

Why is not Mr. Martin so backward when it comes to supporting Christianity when he invades the minds of many Canadians who object to gay marriage that they must be tolerant of what many see as a perverted in nature and very objectionable for many reasons.

Now back to swingers clubs.

According to media reports there are 35 swingers clubs in Canada but hundreds more unofficial clubs in private homes.

How this will effect me is the same way legalized prositution will affect me as it could become a tempting alternative the same way I believe casino's have the ability to distort certain peoples ability concerning common sense to cause one to loose everthing someone owns due to the temptation of basic greed except in this instance it encourages excessive sexual indulgence which could have severe personal ramifications and or contribute to the spread of STD's.

But rather me, I would be more concerned with what it does to society at large especially when membership grows and a lot of women young and old could be viewed and treated as nothing more than a desirable piece of meat by especially men who have become sexually corrupt concerning their own personal outlook on life and sex and could target these women as prey or a potential sexual conquest.

This could very well result or could result in the degradation of society and leads to the disintergration of morals and personal values and destroy people and families.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the bigger issue here is those who oppose the issue being able to control themselves... hmmm sounds like you require more government to assist you control you impulses... give me a break...

and as far as it concerns the objectification of women... puuuhlease.

[Slavik44]

Why is not Mr. Martin so backward when it comes to supporting Christianity when he invades the minds of many Canadians who object to gay marriage that they must be tolerant of what many see as a perverted in nature and very objectionable for many reasons.

Repeat after me This is a secular state, this is a secular state, this is a secular state. And because this is a secular state, the governments job is not to make every one Christian, even God wouldn't like that. If he is all for the free will thing, than I can't see God wanting the government to force people to belive in him. As well if God is pure and holy, then the last thing you want is him to be tied to this corrupt earth. Or do you belive the Liberals should be the representatives of God on earth? You don't even want them to represent you, think how pissed off God must be when you give him the Liberals.

How this will effect me is the same way legalized prositution will affect me as it could become a tempting alternative the same way I believe casino's have the ability to distort certain peoples ability concerning common sense to cause one to loose everthing someone owns due to the temptation of basic greed except in this instance it encourages excessive sexual indulgence which could have severe personal ramifications and or contribute to the spread of STD's.

Remember the mantra small government is best, small government is best, small government is best. If I don;t need the government to spend my money, I will not need them to save me from myself.... they can stick to saving me from economic and human nutjobs, ill do the rest.

But rather me, I would be more concerned with what it does to society at large especially when membership grows and a lot of women young and old could be viewed and treated as nothing more than a desirable piece of meat by especially men who have become sexually corrupt concerning their own personal outlook on life and sex and could target these women as prey or a potential sexual conquest.

Repeat thsi mantra willing participant, willing participant, willing participant. I personally am not a sexist, I belive women are strong individuals, have a fully developed brain, and are capable of choosing what they belive. Rape is still rape, stalking is still stalking, sexual assault is still sexual assault, and a stupid statement like yours is still a stupid statement.

This could very well result or could result in the degradation of society and leads to the disintergration of morals and personal values and destroy people and families.

Repeat after me Enough of Slaviks mantras and Leafless' bullshit, Enough of Slaviks mantras and Leafless' bullshit, Enough of Slaviks mantras and Leafless' bullshit.

oh well there something to cross of my to do list, now to find a phone book.

[Leafless]

I Miss Trudeau

You wrote- " Your busy lamenting the demise of the ability of people like you to dictate what others can do in the privacy of their own homes and buisnesses and then throw around accuasations of totalitarianism.'

I am part of the normal heterosexual Christian majority not (govenrment)supported by the Liberals phoney corrupt Charter that makes fools out of decent people by handing out anti -nation building rights designed to cause havoc in our Canadian society.

Do you really think corrupt perverts built Canadian society?

Think again it was law abiding Christians loyal to Canada that built Canada and I will vote against any government that trys to destroy that concept.

Maybe we need real leadership in this country similar to the U.S.

[newbie]

I Miss Trudeau

You wrote- " Your busy lamenting the demise of the ability of people like you to dictate what others can do in the privacy of their own homes and buisnesses and then throw around accuasations of totalitarianism.'

I am part of the normal heterosexual Christian majority not (govenrment)supported by the Liberals phoney corrupt Charter that makes fools out of decent people by handing out anti -nation building rights designed to cause havoc in our Canadian society.

Do you really think corrupt perverts built Canadian society?

Think again it was law abiding Christians loyal to Canada that built Canada and I will vote against any government that trys to destroy that concept.

Maybe we need real leadership in this country similar to the U.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, a little less generalization would be nice. And as far as needing leadership like the U.S., you're in a minority there. In fact, most of the world would disagree with you. At any rate, you will have your chance to express your opinion in the ballet box.

[PocketRocket]

Sorry,  I for one simply will not tolerate adverse negative changes in Canadian society that could have a major negative impact on my children and family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm. This sounds like fun.

I'm really interested to know, since you "will not tolerate" this, what you are going to do about it, aside from complaining in the forums.

The rest of this was directed at SHAKEYHANDS, but I couldn't leave it alone. Apologies....

It should be noted how Paul Martin and the Liberals like to emphasis the point of separation of church and state and any influence mainly the Christian religion has on Canadians that are not Christian to the point Mr. Martin himself will not even say "MERRY CHRISTMAS."

Oh well, at least he didn't say "Bah, Humbug".

(Talk about mountains from molehills)

Why is not Mr. Martin so backward when it comes to supporting Christianity when he invades the minds of many Canadians who object to gay marriage that they must be tolerant of what many see as a perverted in nature and very objectionable for many reasons.

Because no one is forcing YOU into a gay marriage, and what someone ELSE does with THEIR life, is none of your business. Or mine.

UNLESS they are causing harm to someone else, then people should be left alone to do what they like.

Golden rule broken down to its most basic.

If you want to rub blue mud in your naval and dance naked in your backyard under a full moon, then go to it, chum.

But don't YOU push YOUR morality on ME.

Now back to swingers clubs.

Cool. Let's go!!!

According to media reports there are 35 swingers clubs in Canada but hundreds more unofficial clubs in private homes.

Personally, when I do my "swinging" (such an icky 60's word) I prefer to do it in a private home with a few close friends.

How this will effect me is the same way legalized prositution will affect me as it could become a tempting alternative the same way I believe casino's have the ability to distort certain peoples ability concerning common sense to cause one to loose everthing someone owns due to the temptation of basic greed except in this instance it encourages excessive sexual indulgence which could have severe personal ramifications and or contribute to the spread of STD's.

Well then, let's outlaw it because a few people may become "addicted" to sex, just like some do to gambling.

Let's outlaw casino's, too.

And sugar. Some people get addicted to sugar.

Caffiene. Red meat. TV. Lots of TV addicts out there.

Hell, let's outlaw ANYTHING to which people can get *ahem* "addicted".

"Well, Martha, what are we gonna do tonight???". "Same as always, Vern, we'll have a good, old-fashioned Bible read, and knit some more socks."

"But Martha, we've knitted enough socks to warm the feet of all of China".

"Keep knittin', Vern"

But rather me, I would be more concerned with what it does to society at large especially when membership grows and a lot of women young and old could be viewed and treated as nothing more than a desirable piece of meat by especially men who have become sexually corrupt concerning their own personal outlook on life and sex and could target these women as prey or a potential sexual conquest.

Come on, this kind of attitude has existed since we climbed down from the trees.

Or, if you're a creationist type, since we were exiled from The Garden

This could very well result or could result in the degradation of society and leads to the disintergration of morals and personal values and destroy people and families.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is it with the religious right that demands they take a stand against every little thing on the premise that it will lead to the degradation of society???

Rock and Roll was going to ruin society.

Comic books were going to ruin society.

Jazz was going to ruin society.

Big Band music was going to ruin society.

And yet the Klu Klux Klan was made up exclusively of white Christian males.

The pillars of society, I'm sure you'll agree.

Sorry, pal. Society "degraded" a long time ago.

And nobody noticed.

[PocketRocket]

...the country will not exist as we know it with English Canadians assuming the role of possibly second, third or fourth class citizens at the mercy of basically all current minorities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And all this over a little sex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, actually it's all over a LOT of sex

And it's over some people having a better time than they rightfully should be having, consarn it!!!!