Is it morally acceptable to shop at Wal-Mart?

[Argus]

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

torture in china

Wal-Mart

[Renegade]

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

torture in china

Wal-Mart

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given that virtually all retailers sell goods which are made in China, why single out one retailer? If it is moral to shop at any retailer who sells goods made in China, then it is just as moral to shop at Wal-Mart.

My view is that Wal-Mart is an agressive cost-cutter who persues savings with ruthless efficiency. It then passes much of those savings to the customer. In my view that is not only moral, it is commendable and other retailers can only envy WalMart's position.

[Riverwind]

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

We really have no choice but to buy Chinese goods now - almost all durable goods in all retail stores are made there. Sure, once in awhile the is a non-Chinese alternative but it is the exception instead of the rule.

[August1991]

Is it moral to watch movies made in Hollywood if the State of California imposes capital punishment?

[newbie]

Good one August.

[BubberMiley]

Besides, what's morally wrong with having labour camps? It seems like a productive use of the prison system to me. It beats having cons playing PS2 and watching porn.

[newbie]

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that any different from what went on at USA territory factories on Saipan?

http://www.cleanclothes.org/legal/04-01-08.htm

http://www.change-links.org/Guess.htm

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/sweatshops.html

[Guest eureka]

The people who make mpvoes. August, don,t necessarily agree with Ca[otal punishment. There is no analogy with forced labour and wage slavery possible.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

Good question, and the answer is no. It is similar to buying goods that you know, or suspect, are stolen. You only create a market for stolen goods (or labour). However, it would be important to prove Wally-World was aware of the slavery (very little proof exists, one can get shot or worse for painting China in a bad light while in China).

Renegade,

It then passes much of those savings to the customer. In my view that is not only moral, it is commendable and other retailers can only envy WalMart's position.

Normally, I try to not fall into the 'false dichotomy' trap, but it appears that you are endorsing slavery. This is a position of amorality, and while I agree that it exists (as the base of rights-theory), I think it is something we all are capable of being above.

August1991,

Is it moral to watch movies made in Hollywood if the State of California imposes capital punishment?

Don't be so silly. If Mel Brooks helped fund Hollywood's existence by being the executioner, perhaps you'd have a point.

[August1991]

August1991,

Is it moral to watch movies made in Hollywood if the State of California imposes capital punishment?

Don't be so silly. If Mel Brooks helped fund Hollywood's existence by being the executioner, perhaps you'd have a point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven Spielberg pays a whack of taxes in California so he helps fund the executioner, if that's what you mean. Some people view capital punishment as cruel and unusual. Or, do you mean that I should not drive in the US where they use prisoners to clean roadways?

But my point was slightly more nuanced. There are over 1 billion people in China. Should we penalize some of them because of the activities of others? Because some Americans commit murder in Detroit (or in Miami, for that matter), should I refuse to buy a GM product?

[sharkman]

This thread has it backwards. China is benefiting greatly from making trinkets and cheap clothes for the West and is almost a super power already. They have a huge army and seem real interested in ballistic missiles. They will one day soon do something like grag Taiwan and nobody will be able to do anything about it.

In the early 90s trade with China was started with the brilliant, the charismatic, the one Canadians love to love, Bill Clinton. Opening up trade with China only a few years after that massacre at that square was the biggest mistake that Bill made, and their have been plenty.

The question of whether to shop at Wal-mart shows how brainwashed some are(the MSM love to hate Walmart and tell us to do the same) when, as has been stated, most stores carry products from China and no one says boo about those stores.

On the movie thing, many of the companies that make them are now foreign owned, like Sony, so if you really want to support death row people why don't you do something pro-active and camp out at a prison where one is to be executed, complaining about it on a message board seems rather useless.

[Montgomery Burns]

Renegade:

My view is that Wal-Mart is an agressive cost-cutter who persues savings with ruthless efficiency. It then passes much of those savings to the customer. In my view that is not only moral, it is commendable and other retailers can only envy WalMart's position.

I saw an article about WalMart the other day. They did $338 billion in revenues last year and their costs were $327 billion, i.e., they made $11 billion gross profit on $338 billion. They operate on very thin margins; they make it up on the mega-volume they sell.

As for the torture part, people use Mid East oil where torture is conducted, apparently quite often. Iran tortured and beat that Canadian-Iranian female to death a while back (I think she was a journalist).

Update: A Pew Survey in today's news:

WASHINGTON, DC, United States (UPI) -- A poll conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press finds that most U.S. residents have a favorable opinion of Wal-Mart.

'Nearly every American lives near enough a Wal-Mart to shop there, and 84 percent say they have done so in the past year,' the research group said. 'Praise for the retailer`s low prices, wide selection and convenience flow freely, and 81 percent of those with a Wal-Mart nearby say it is a good place to shop.'

Researchers found Wal-Mart`s 'most faithful shoppers are found among those with annual incomes below $30,000, more than half of whom say they shop there regularly.'

Yeah, I know it is only a poll, but...

Edited December 16, 2005 by Montgomery Burns

[Renegade]

Renegade,

It then passes much of those savings to the customer. In my view that is not only moral, it is commendable and other retailers can only envy WalMart's position.

Normally, I try to not fall into the 'false dichotomy' trap, but it appears that you are endorsing slavery. This is a position of amorality, and while I agree that it exists (as the base of rights-theory), I think it is something we all are capable of being above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No I'm really not endorsing slavery. The very idea is abhorent. I believe in the rights of freedom both for individuals and enterprises. For WalMart as far as I am aware, they have obtained the cost efficiencies through completely legal means, and my statement above applies on that presumption.

The US has tortured prisoners in Iraq and Guantanamo. Is it moral to buy US goods, or to visit the US? The analogy is the same.

[Renegade]

Renegade:

My view is that Wal-Mart is an agressive cost-cutter who persues savings with ruthless efficiency. It then passes much of those savings to the customer. In my view that is not only moral, it is commendable and other retailers can only envy WalMart's position.

I saw an article about WalMart the other day. They did $338 billion in revenues last year and their costs were $327 billion, i.e., they made $11 billion gross profit on $338 billion. They operate on very thin margins; they make it up on the mega-volume they sell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It proves my point doesn't it? We so often condemn companies who 'gouge' the consumer to bolster profits. It isn't often we find an enterprise who's business model is predicated upon agressively passing on savings to the customer.

Walmart estimates that in the US alone they save consumers $100 billion/year, or $1250 per family/year. ( see Remarks of Lee Scott ) Regardless of if you believe this number or not, it is clear that there are substantial savings passed on to the consumer who has become richer because of it.

If you want to read a divergent opinion of someone who DOES NOT believe it ethical to shop at WalMart see :Is It Ethical to Shop at Wal-Mart?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Renegade,

For WalMart as far as I am aware, they have obtained the cost efficiencies through completely legal means, and my statement above applies on that presumption.

Certainly not all Wally-World goods are made by slaves. Some are though, and some celebrities with their own lines of clothing have been accused (and some caught) using sweat-shop/slave labour. There are certain brands of products that I have not bought for decades because of this. Perhaps Wal-Mart should not be held accountable for only selling a few products made from 'stolen labour', but the consumer is ultimately the fuel which enables slavery to continue. Wal-Mart seems to have no qualms about profiting from slavery.

[Renegade]

Dear Renegade,

For WalMart as far as I am aware, they have obtained the cost efficiencies through completely legal means, and my statement above applies on that presumption.

Certainly not all Wally-World goods are made by slaves. Some are though, and some celebrities with their own lines of clothing have been accused (and some caught) using sweat-shop/slave labour. There are certain brands of products that I have not bought for decades because of this. Perhaps Wal-Mart should not be held accountable for only selling a few products made from 'stolen labour', but the consumer is ultimately the fuel which enables slavery to continue. Wal-Mart seems to have no qualms about profiting from slavery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

theloniusfleabag,

Can you specify what products, what brands? Also can you be more specific about what you classify as sweat shop/slave labour? Certainly I'm not interested in buying products produced illegally.

[Guest eureka]

How many times does it have to be shown that WalMart benefits nobody but the Walton's. Will we still see the same prattle from those "rugged individualists" who think they support some kinds of fredom and have nothing more in their heads than the slavish dedication to mantras - free enterprise they usually call this. It is as much about Free Enterprise as were the Privateers of old - licensed by their governments to prey on others.

WalMart has hundreds of lawsuits against it at the moment from mployees and the public over its predations. WalMart causes massive unemployment; loss of tax revenues to Municipalities and reductions in income taxes because of the unemployment and the lower wages it pays.

WalMart is subsidized out of your tax dollars in welfare support to its employees who cannot survive on their wages.

The WalMart concept, not just WalMart but the total including all those who are forced to follow suit - was estimated a few years ago to have cost the United States 2,300,00 jobs. It has only grown worse.

There is not a single benefit to be claimed for WalMart. You pay more for its products in the revenue loss and the subsidies. You pay in blood for the families destroyed as their jobs disappear.

[newbie]

In the early 90s trade with China was started with the brilliant, the charismatic, the one Canadians love to love, Bill Clinton.  Opening up trade with China only a few years after that massacre at that square was the biggest mistake that Bill made, and their have been plenty. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To my recollection, the massacre was on Bush sr. watch and he did nothing. Trade went on unabated.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

[newbie]

The Department of Labor indicates that 50% of garment factories in the U.S. violate two or more basic labor laws, establishing them as sweatshops

from: http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/sweatshops.html

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear newbie, (and sharkman)

The Tiananmen Square incident happened in 1989, under Bush, and congress chose to impose sanctions.

Bush secretly sent an emissary to meet with some Chinese officials; in December he vetoed a bill to extend the visas of some 40,000 Chinese students in the US, and waived some congressional sanctions.

So, Bush actually rewarded China for crushing democracy and executing the democratic movement leaders. source: The People's Chronology, by James Trager pg 220 (1992)

Also in 1989...Russia uses poison gas against demonstators in Georgia...someone we know is facing the death penalty for this sort of thing...

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Renegade,

theloniusfleabag,

Can you specify what products, what brands?

I would rather not risk naming names, but here are a few links...

http://www.she-net.com/nosweat/hanessweatshops.htm

http://www.aworldconnected.org/article.php/525.html

"In China, workers at Wellco Factory making shoes for Nike are paid 16 cents/hour (living wage for a small family is about 87 cents), 11-12 hour shifts, 7 days a week, 77-84 hours per week; workers are fined if they refuse overtime, and they’re not paid an extra rate for overtime hours."

from...

http://www.davidicke.net/newsroom/asia/china/111101b.html

All of the workers are fearful of speaking out for their rights because they know they will be fired if they do. Other United States labels using slave labor in China are Liz Claiborne, Bugle Boy, Wal-Mart, J.C. Penny, Sears, The Limited (Structure), T.J. Max, Casual Corner, Kmart, Cherokee Jeans, and other labels that could not be identified. (“Naming Names,” 1-18, http://www.nlcnet.org/China/names.htm)

Some lawsuits have been filed,...

http://www.fafo.no/liabilities/part_II-2forc-lab.htm

The Saipan Sweatshop Cases & Settlement

Three separate civil lawsuits were filed against U.S. clothing retailers for their involvement with the foreign-owned garment industry of Saipan. Saipan is the largest island in the Northern Mariana Islands, a U.S. Commonwealth, and is attractive to the garment industry because of its lax immigration laws, low minimum wage, and exemption from U.S. import duties. Several clothing companies were named in the suits, including Gap, Tommy Hilfiger, the Limited, J.C. Penny, Wal-Mart, J. Crew, and Nordstrom. The suits led to a $20 million settlement with twenty-seven of the U.S. companies.

Definitions for 'slavery' can be found on this site also.

[Renegade]

theloniusfleabag,

Let's say you were successful in your boycott of certain brands of products and the manufacturers of those products decided to either close the factories or to mechanize so as to not employ anyone in "sweat shops"

What exactly do you expect those formerly employed to do for gainful employment?

[Riverwind]

What exactly do you expect those formerly employed to do for gainful employment?

Since there is would still be a demand for the goods in question then there would likely be workers in other locations or countries that would find new jobs that they did not have before. So the jobs argument is a red herring.

[PocketRocket]

Other United States labels using slave labor in China are Liz Claiborne, Bugle Boy, Wal-Mart, J.C. Penny, Sears, The Limited (Structure), T.J. Max, Casual Corner, Kmart, Cherokee Jeans, and other labels that could not be identified.

I am happy to say I do not shop at any of these outlets, nor buy any of these products.

Unfortunately, I cannot say it because of any humanitarian principles.

The simple reason is that Wally-world, while offering great prices, carries (largely) inferior quality goods.

Many of my friends do WalMart, and have houses filled with crappy, particle-board furniture that starts to disintegrate every time you try to move it.

I will often buy used items at places like "Value Village" or at any number of second-hand outlets.

The reason is simple, I can often find really GOOD quality furniture for a pittance.

Occasionally it needs a bit of touching-up, or re-upolstering, but I'm fairly proficient in both, so that's no issue.

A good example is my solid Oak dining-room set. It was old, weatherbeaten, and, in places, cracked. The tabletop looked terrible.

Cleaned it up, lightly sanded it, gave it a really big drink of linseed oil and turpentine, and the wood came back to life.

The cracks all closed up as the wood swelled back to it's original form.

The richness and luster all came back. It looks fantastic, and with an investment of about 4 hours of time, and $15 in materials.

People are amazed when I tell them I got the set for $20.

Clothing is much the same.

I mean let's face it, when a really decent, warm, stylish winter coat has a price tag of $150.00 (at least) and up, I can and have found the same coat for $25.00 at a 2nd hand store.

Another $20 to get it dry-cleaned, and voila, new coat.

If I sound like a tightwad, that's not necessarily the case.

But I hate throwing away good money on shabby merchandise, which seems to be Wal-Mart's primary stock in trade.

When I AM buying something new, I always try to buy from either a locally-owned business, or at least a canadian-owned retailer.

AAMOF, I just got home from a visit to Canadian Tire.

[Argus]

Given that 90% of what Wal-Mart sells is made in China, some of it in labour camps, is it moral to shop at Wal-Mart, or to buy Chinese made goods?

torture in china

Wal-Mart

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given that virtually all retailers sell goods which are made in China, why single out one retailer?

You couldn't be bothered to read either cite, could you? Let me summarize. Wal-Mart is a massive chain which not only imports its goods from China it underuts all other retailers by doing so, forcing them to also outsource. It gouges its suppliers, and even has a special branch of their sales force which helps put suppliers in touch with Chinese factories (after pressuring them to lower their prices more). Wal-mart forces suppliers who are reliant on it to relocate their manufacturing to China. The massive waves of consumer goods flooding into Canada and the US are directly attributable to Wal-Mart, even if they are sold at other stores.

My view is that Wal-Mart is an agressive cost-cutter who persues savings with ruthless efficiency. It then passes much of those savings to the customer.

And it persues those savings with the ruthless efficiency of a shark, slaughtering any business which gets in its way, destroying suppliers, forcing them to outsource, forcing their own underpaid sales clerks to work unpaid hours, using child labour and illegal immigrants. That's what it does here. In China, the Waltons have found the perfect working environment; with no labour laws, no overtime pay requirements, no threat of unions, no environmental laws, and enough poverty to assure they can always get a supply of workers no matter how terrible they treat them.