Paul Martin's Doctors Shares

[rbacon]

Paul Martin who professess to believe in the Canadian Medical system status quo, even tho he uses a Private for Profit clinic himself and also invests in his private doctors Private for Profit Clinics. Which by the way just made somebody a pile of dough the day before Goodales big announcement. Maybe The OSC should investigate. http://quotes.newswire.ca/default/index.ht...SX&instrument=E

[Montgomery Burns]

Good catch. More from Canada's state-run taxpayer-funded CBC:

OTTAWA - Opposition politicians are calling Paul Martin a hypocrite after finding out that his personal physician heads a private health care clinic in Montreal.

Dr. Sheldon Elman is the founder and CEO of the Medisys Health Group. He has been Martin’s doctor for 23 years.

Martin says he’s never used private health care. In recent months, he has been touting the Liberals as the protectors of medicare while painting the Conservatives as the party that wants to privatize services.

“The hypocrisy of these guys is absolutely breathtaking,” said Conservative leader Stephen Harper.

The company’s web site, lists its 2003 revenue as $53 million and says it provides health care to some of the country’s largest corporations. It also operates a chain of private MRI clinics.

*Sigh* If only I was a liberal elitist, then I too could enjoy private healthcare.

[err]

Good catch.  More from Canada's state-run taxpayer-funded CBC:

OTTAWA - Opposition politicians are calling Paul Martin a hypocrite after finding out that his personal physician heads a private health care clinic in Montreal.

“The hypocrisy of these guys is absolutely breathtaking,” said Conservative leader Stephen Harper.

*Sigh* If only I was a liberal elitist, then I too could enjoy private healthcare.

Just curious... Don't the CPC party really agree with Mike Harris and Preston Manning.... who've gone public that "good Conservatives would cancel the Canada Health Act" and get rid of our medicare system ????

Does Harper only tout the "universal health care" postion when he's disguised in granny's dress. (ie. a pre-election lie) .... and not his true Big Bad Wolf character... I'm wondering about the hypocracy in the CPC's stated position on healthcare ???

[sharkman]

Just curious... Don't the CPC party really agree with Mike Harris and Preston Manning.... who've gone public that "good Conservatives would cancel the Canada Health Act" and get rid of our medicare system ????

What's this? You drag up 2 guys that got voted or kicked out of their parties and then quote them as if what they said still stands? You must still have a ton of their quotes and didn't get to use them all while they were still around.

Does Harper only tout the "universal health care" postion when he's disguised in granny's dress. (ie. a pre-election lie) .... and not his true Big Bad Wolf character...  I'm wondering about the hypocracy in the CPC's stated position on healthcare ???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you would like to know what Harper's position on this is, go to the CPC website, it's all there in black and white. I know I know, you would rather mischaracterize them instead.

[rbacon]

If Martin was so against Universal Public Healthcare why has he done nothing about all the Private for profit healthcare clinics in Quebec? Why does he personally use Private for Profit Clinics himself? Yes I know he is a rich man and can afford that, and that is ok, just don't wrap yourself in the flag and Pretend that you are for Universal Public healthcare when privately you do the opposite. Hypocrite Liberal that is what Martin is portraying.

[err]

Just curious... Don't the CPC party really agree with Mike Harris and Preston Manning.... who've gone public that "good Conservatives would cancel the Canada Health Act" and get rid of our medicare system ????

What's this? You drag up 2 guys that got voted or kicked out of their parties and then quote them as if what they said still stands? You must still have a ton of their quotes and didn't get to use them all while they were still around.

Well it's funny that most of the CPC crowd here raves about what a "genius" Preston Manning is, and how Mike Harris was such a good guy. It shows that the CPC crownd agrees with much of the philosopy of these guys, and also with a diametrically opposing view presented by Harper... So who all is lying... It would appear that Harper presenting an image that the Canadian public wants to hear (to get elected) that is not the real position of his party, nor of its supporters....

Does Harper only tout the "universal health care" postion when he's disguised in granny's dress. (ie. a pre-election lie) .... and not his true Big Bad Wolf character...  I'm wondering about the hypocracy in the CPC's stated position on healthcare ???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you would like to know what Harper's position on this is, go to the CPC website, it's all there in black and white. I know I know, you would rather mischaracterize them instead.

You can tell lies in blackand white, in colour, or audibly.

The biggest problem with Harper is that nobody trusts him.... He's stated convictions such as those on the abortion issue that he's modified, and re-modified until they're out of the news.... But nobody trusts him...

Harper's running around the country acting like a LIBERAL, promising money to everyone.... Completely abandoning fiscal Conservatism... to get elected... but would he change back into a fiscal Conservative if he got in... or a Social Conseravative....

[sharkman]

CPC has not been in power, their record has only been in opposing the Liberals. All liberal supporters (and err) don't trust them and are afraid of them

Liberals have been in power for over a decade and have had scandals, resignations and lies - beginning with the GST removal. All Liberal supporters(and err) trust them. You are obviously unable to see corruption and scandal. So, go ahead, vote Liberal or whatever, but don't expect anyone to believe your tripe about Harper when Martin's record includes actually serving in government. A guy that uses private healthcare while preaching how to save public has removed his own credibility.

[Canuck E Stan]

Then we have Jack Layton who doesn't promise money to anyone and spells out programs without a price tag attached. Praising banks for their wonderful profits,flip-flopping on private healthcare,flip-flopping on legalization of Marijuana, not following Buzz's plan to vote for the Liberal.At the rate Jack's going there won't be any Dippers in Parliament.

[err]

Then we have Jack Layton who doesn't promise money to anyone and spells out programs without a price tag attached. Praising banks for their wonderful profits,flip-flopping on private healthcare,flip-flopping on legalization of Marijuana, not following Buzz's plan to vote for the Liberal.At the rate Jack's going there won't be any Dippers in Parliament.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack Layton has not flip-flopped at all on health care. He stated that private health care has always been here, and that he doesn't intend to ban it.... just STARVE it of public funding.

On the legalization of marijuana, Layton has softened his stance to decriminalization from legalization.... Funny how only one of the four candidates is so square on this issue .....

And Jack Layton is the leader of the NDP, not Buzz Hargrove... However, since you bring up Buzz Hargrove's position, I'm surprised one of you CPC's didn't want to post this letter that went to the National Post.......

Buzz Hargrove

Financial Post

Tuesday, December 06, 2005

My call last week for Canadians to re-elect a minority Liberal government,

with the NDP holding a clear balance of power, sent shock waves through the

federal campaign. And I'm still somewhat puzzled as to why. For I've simply

given expression to a sentiment that is clearly shared by almost everyone on

the Canadian left -- including most NDP members.

Anyone with a progressive bone in their body rejoiced at the important

measures taken by the minority government during its 17-month lifespan. More

new social spending than any other government in the past quarter-century

(all the more so thanks to Jack Layton's amendments to the 2005 budget). A

long-awaited national child-care program. Crucial new rights for workers --

most recently including protection of collective agreements against the

unilateral dictates of bankruptcy judges. Affirmation of same-sex marriage.

A historic deal to address horrendous living conditions among aboriginals.

Measures to reduce poverty among seniors and families with children. Other

initiatives on housing, immigrants and the environment.

After two decades of hard-nosed, pro-business rule (under Conservative and

Liberal majorities alike), this is an incredible change. Obviously, this

didn't all happen because Prime Minister Paul Martin had a conversion on the

road to Damascus (though his leadership has been important). No, it happened

because his party had to appeal to others to stay in power, both in the

Commons and indirectly to a broader range of interest groups than the

powerful and well-connected ones who usually call the shots around Ottawa.

The Liberals have not been perfect, obviously. But for those Canadians

working for a fairer, better society, the past 17 months have constituted an

inspirational moment of opportunity. Which is precisely why I didn't want

that moment of opportunity to end. However, the opposition parties made

their own calculations (worrying more about seat tallies than the direction

of the country) and we have our Christmas election.

The best the left can now hope for is a re-creation of another Liberal

minority -- hopefully, this time, with the NDP holding a clearer balance of

power and the two parties negotiating a more stable and lasting way of

working together. The downside risks, however, are substantial. If the

Liberals lose Quebec seats to the Bloc Quebecois, then the math favours a

Conservative minority (supported by the BQ). A marriage of convenience

between the Conservatives' anti-statist, decentralizing inclinations and the

BQ's separatism will quickly destroy all the good that's been done in the

past 17 months, and then some.

As a union leader, I know all about bargaining power. How does the CAW win

improvements for its members? By creatively seeking a "pressure point" that

allows us to exercise collective strength with an employer. When a company

executive says, "Trust me," I keep a close eye on my wallet. It's not a

question of trust, it's a question of power.

The same rules apply in politics. I'm even more skeptical of any politician

(whatever the party) who says, "My platform is the best, so trust me."

Instead, I look for the pressure point. Minority government is just that

kind of pressure point.

By endorsing a Liberal minority with an NDP balance of power, the CAW is not

"drifting" toward Liberal views. Indeed, my opinions (on everything from

free trade to public ownership to gun control) clearly place me to the left

of the NDP hierarchy. However, politics is not about abstract ideals, it's

about power -- just like bargaining. We have an obligation to our members,

and to the communities where they live, to make the most of our current

opportunity -- an opportunity to deliver more of the policies we've seen in

the past 17 months and to prevent the social destruction that would

accompany a Conservative victory.

NDP strategists bemoan the CAW's perspective because it interferes with

their careful plan to deal with the "strategic voting" problem -- by

ignoring it and hoping it just goes away. The NDP is ignoring Stephen Harper

and running against the Liberals. This is a surefire recipe for alienating

potential supporters who are both relieved at the good things minority

government has delivered (thanks in large part to the NDP) and reasonably

worried about the prospects of Tory rule.

In fact, strategic voting can help the NDP as much as it hurts them if the

party claims rightful credit for the successes of the past 17 months and

focuses resources on ridings where the "strategic" vote is indeed an NDP

vote. CAW volunteers will go all out to elect NDP MPs where they are the

incumbents, where they are the best hope for defeating Tories (such as Sid

Ryan in Oshawa) or are challenging Liberals in ridings with no Tory threat

(like our own Peggy Nash in Parkdale-High Park).

Elsewhere, however, we have our eyes on a much bigger prize. If we can

recreate the conditions that led to the policies of the past 17 months,

we'll show our members, and all progressive Canadians, that politics really

can be a good thing.

Buzz Hargrove is president of the Canadian Auto Workers, Canada's largest

private sector trade union.

C National Post 2005

[Canuck E Stan]

That's why when Martin and Layton were both in Windsor on the same day last week future senator Buzz was with Martin and didn't even bother to help Jack out.Buzz really believes in the NDP cause enough to write a letter to the editor but not to campaign with Jack....anywhere.Jack's stumbling pretty badly these days.

[apollo19]

I suspect this topic is an attempt to insult Martin, but it still goes back to the private-public health care argument. A good article on this debate: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ISSUE05/TPStory

Philippe Couillard, a wunderkind who became a certified neurosurgeon at 28, and a head of surgery at 32, has been ordered by the Supreme Court of Canada to perform the most delicate act of political surgery imaginable. He must take down part of the wall between the two sides of medicare's brain: public care on the left, and private care on the right.

"We have to open the debate and get away from rigid ideological positions where if you utter the word 'private,' people have a seizure," he says.

Medicare will never be the same afterward. The results of Dr. Couillard's medicare surgery in Quebec will inevitably be amplified in Alberta and British Columbia. "Medicare-plus," a new framework in which public and private care co-operate and compete with one another, is on the way.

I can understand conservatives viewpoints on this issue, that is allowing people to purchase extra healthcare with their own money, but I don't quite understand the left's stance on this issue. It is known that private clinics operate in Canada, and they make a profit by selling services to the public system, through the means of contracting surgeries out. Is this just an instance where some form of government control has been gained over a complete industry, and there is an "if you cant have it, I can't" type of mentality? That seems to be the argument I keep hearing equal people deserve equal care. Sure, that sounds great, but what about other industries? What sets someones right to choose what brand of milk they drink apart from choosing what kind of healthcare they will recieve?

There are probably many Canadians willing and open to two competing systems, but no party has come out and stated it will do so. Provinces like Quebec and BC are already pushing the limits of the Canada Health Act and are being fined -- all it will take is a government which will ease the rules in order to have a sustainable public system competing with private clinics. Would the Conservatives continue to fine the government of Charest and Campbell like the Liberals have done for failing to meet the requirements of the CHA? I haven't heard a very clear answer from Harper on this, and Martin has already shown what he believes through his use of the private clinic.

[sharkman]

There are probably many Canadians willing and open to two competing systems, but no party has come out and stated it will do so. Provinces like Quebec and BC are already pushing the limits of the Canada Health Act and are being fined -- all it will take is a government which will ease the rules in order to have a sustainable public system competing with private clinics. Would the Conservatives continue to fine the government of Charest and Campbell like the Liberals have done for failing to meet the requirements of the CHA? I haven't heard a very clear answer from Harper on this, and Martin has already shown what he believes through his use of the private clinic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, we know what the Supreme Court of Canada thinks, and it has ruled against the system as it stands today, a direct product of the Liberals' cutting transfer payments to the provinces and then ignoring the growing line ups for several years. Now Martin wants to fix the problem since he's running for re-election, and surprise surprise, Canadians have their doubts.

[err]

There are probably many Canadians willing and open to two competing systems, but no party has come out and stated it will do so.

I haven't heard a very clear answer from Harper on this, and Martin has already shown what he believes through his use of the private clinic.

We probably won't hear a clear answer from Harper until, God forbid, he should ever take office....

I think you'll see Martin's position promoting our public health care system through his recent announcements of funding and support contradict what he has done as finance minister for how many years.... plundering the health-care system to fund deficit reduction and tax breaks for Corp Canada.

The NDP has, however, been consistent in its position, that our surpluses should go back to where they were plundered from, reducing wait times, etc... They have been consistent in this position for as long as I can remember.

The CPC and its founding counterparts has promoted parallel health care system, the abolition of the Canada Health Act, and anybody who has followed politics for the past several years will see their present stance as electioneering... and should not trust what Harper now claims....

[Canuck E Stan]

Topic:Replying to Paul Martin's Doctors Shares

Err,

You neglected to mention anything about Harris and Corporations in this thread.

[sharkman]

back to the topic, if this was Harper who had a private care doctor and shares in a private clinic, the main stream media would go bonkers for a week over that. But since it's Martin, he gets very little coverage.

[hiti]

back to the topic, if this was Harper who had a private care doctor and shares in a private clinic, the main stream media would go bonkers for a week over that.  But since it's Martin, he gets very little coverage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All doctors work out of private clinics. So what is so different about Martin's doctor? Does Martin pay his doctor with a credit card or his health care for the doctor's services as Canadians are prone to do across Canada.

[scribblet]

back to the topic, if this was Harper who had a private care doctor and shares in a private clinic, the main stream media would go bonkers for a week over that.  But since it's Martin, he gets very little coverage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All doctors work out of private clinics. So what is so different about Martin's doctor? Does Martin pay his doctor with a credit card or his health care for the doctor's services as Canadians are prone to do across Canada.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgaz...0e-f6ea28b15b11

Prime Minister Paul Martin's personal physician is the Montreal founder of a national network of clinics that is in the vanguard of private health care.

Dr. Sheldon Elman, president and majority shareholder of the Medisys Health Group, said Canada's public health-care system has deteriorated to the point where it is "disastrously terrible" in key areas.

"We all grew up under this umbrella of, well, you're entitled to unlimited free access to health care no matter what, no matter when and no matter how much," Elman said in an interview.

"Initially, we had an absolutely wonderful system ... But the truth is that we don't have this wonderful system. The system is great for certain things and absolutely, disastrously terrible for others."

Elman cited as terrible the fact some provinces - Quebec is not one of them - prevent people from paying for an MRI scan to diagnose a medical problem.

"You can buy an MRI for your dog and you cannot buy it for your daughter. Literally, if your dog has a problem, you can go and get this done by a vet today."

Medisys has offices in Montreal, Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. The Montreal facility has an MRI machine that costs patients about $560 for a scan, most of which can be reimbursed through private insurance.

Critics say Medisys is an example of two-tier health care because its clinics let more affluent patients jump the queue to get tested while others who don't have the money must wait.

"This is something we are discussing with the provinces - the issue of private payment for diagnostic services," said Catherine Saunders, a Health Canada official.

The Montreal clinic also charges patients for a virtual colonoscopy, a noninvasive scan that avoids the need for the sometimes painful standard colonoscopy.

[err]

back to the topic, if this was Harper who had a private care doctor and shares in a private clinic, the main stream media would go bonkers for a week over that.  But since it's Martin, he gets very little coverage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All doctors work out of private clinics. So what is so different about Martin's doctor? Does Martin pay his doctor with a credit card or his health care for the doctor's services as Canadians are prone to do across Canada.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgaz...0e-f6ea28b15b11

Prime Minister Paul Martin's personal physician is the Montreal founder of a national network of clinics that is in the vanguard of private health care.

Dr. Sheldon Elman, president and majority shareholder of the Medisys Health Group, said Canada's public health-care system has deteriorated to the point where it is "disastrously terrible" in key areas.

Martin at least, has the decency not to promote these more expensive services that he can afford to pay for out of his own pocket. He is not actively promoting the use of private health care, paid from medicare as Harper did in the French language debate.

In that debate, Harper stated that he didn't care who provided the service, as long as the service was delivered...

I see the three party positions as having the Conservatives endorsing private health care delivery, the Liberals, while not publicly endorsing it, would not make the deal with the NDP to stop public funds going to it... and the NDP's position is to fix our health care system... so it's publicly delivered.... I'm voting NDP.

[The Honest Politician]

Dr. Sheldon Elman is the founder and CEO of the Medisys Health Group. He has been Martin’s doctor for 23 years.

When the Medisys Health Group was opened, was Martin already a patient?

Has Martin ever paid money for quicker treatment, than he would have been given under normal medicare?

The country deserves answers. He cannot trumpet health care in one hand and support a private system on the other. If he ever paid cash above and beyond what medicare would provide, for preferential, expedited, or higher level of treatment he owes it to everyone to come clean.

[scribblet]

Dr. Sheldon Elman is the founder and CEO of the Medisys Health Group. He has been Martin’s doctor for 23 years.

When the Medisys Health Group was opened, was Martin already a patient?

Has Martin ever paid money for quicker treatment, than he would have been given under normal medicare?

The country deserves answers. He cannot trumpet health care in one hand and support a private system on the other. If he ever paid cash above and beyond what medicare would provide, for preferential, expedited, or higher level of treatment he owes it to everyone to come clean.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only the Shadow knows! We will never know the answer to that one.

I believe Duceppe made a comment during the debate that there are 10,000 Healthcare administrators in the Ottawa area. It is no wonder the taxpayers' backs are broken and they can't get them fixed.... Now extrapolate that throughout the system and how many do we have, does anyone really know?.

[hiti]

Private Health Care clinic weren't allows across Canada until the NDP supported the private abortion clinics even though there were publicly funded abortions available in hospitals.

So the NDP opened the door to private clinics and now they want to slam that door shut.

Martin is fighting to adequately fund and regulate the public health care system so the private system won't get a foothold and Jack Layton is shooting him down with rhetoric while Harper doesn't care who pays the health care bill as long as his buddies can get a foothold and destroy the public system, which was the intent of his NCC when he was president and which is the intent of Manning and Harris.

SO first we had private abortion clinics, which the NDP supported, then we got the private MIR clinics and the Eye clinics. The Liberals did stop the Eye clinics by requiring that they must be paif by public health care monies. The Liberals also provided more money for MRI machines in the public system which stopped more MRI clinics from starting up.

Now the Liberals have reached agreements with the provinces for wait-time bemch marks and have provided the funding to lower the wait-times. The Libs, who the Cons say balanced the budget in 1996 with health care $$$, have returned those funds to the provinces because Canada can now afford to do so without running the huge deficits that Mulroney did. Martin increased health care funding by $41 billion.

Harper will guarantee health care and he don't care where it comes from but we can be sure it will come from his and Manning and Harris' friends from the USA with their private clinics.

In 2004 the annual premium for a health plan covering an American family of four averaged $9,950 US or $829 US monthly. Premiums are expected to average more than $14,500 US in 2006.

The US health-care industry, including providers, pharmaceutical companies and insurance industries, is worth $4 trillion US annually. They spend a combined $400 million US annually on lobbying. Wonder who much of that is being spent on lobbying in Canada?

Billion-dollar corporations dominate the private health-care industry. Given that 90 percent of all corporate stock is held by 10 percent of the shareholders, 60 percent of all shareholders are other corporations, and the top one percent own half of all the stock, there is little doubt that privatization will transfer health-care risk form the moral domain to the balance sheet.

Harper, Manning and Harris will be well rewarded if they can bring these corporations to Canada.

Yes Canada could trim it's administration within the health-care system but we ain't seen nothing compared to what the private system charges for administration.

[Argus]

Dr. Sheldon Elman, president and majority shareholder of the Medisys Health Group, said Canada's public health-care system has deteriorated to the point where it is "disastrously terrible" in key areas.

Martin at least, has the decency not to promote these more expensive services that he can afford to pay for out of his own pocket. He is not actively promoting the use of private health care, paid from medicare as Harper did in the French language debate.

You miss the point. Martin wraps himself in the flag and goes red in the face expressing his passion and determination to defend public health care against the evil tories. But if he really had any strength in his convictions he'd have dropped his doctor long ago. The symbolism alone is terrible. And it exposes the phoneyness of his professed passion.

In that debate, Harper stated that he didn't care who provided the service, as long as the service was delivered...

I'm with Harper. I'd rather there be a perfect public health care system - or at least a competent one. But I want A system there so I can use it in an emergency. If the public system can't provide it then I'll go with the private system.

and the NDP's position is to fix our health care system... so it's publicly delivered....  I'm voting NDP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe the NDP at least, unlike the Liberals, actually do care about the public system. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence they will actually fix it. They will pour in more and more money, but do nothing to address the systemic problems. The system will get much more expensive, but no more accessible.

I believe the system is fixable. But the Liberals aren't interested, and the NDP isn't capable, due to ideological rigidity. I'm hoping the Tories can tweak the rules and do better.

[err]

I'm with Harper. I'd rather there be a perfect public health care system - or at least a competent one. But I want A system there so I can use it in an emergency. If the public system can't provide it then I'll go with the private system.

I think that both the Liberals and NDP are talking about fixing the public system. However, it should be important to note that the reason we are having this election now, the reason that Layton broke off ties with the Liberals, is that the Liberals wouldn't guarantee to support only the public system. Of the $40 Billion recently promised to the provinces to reduce wait times, something like 30 percent is earmarked for private health care firms. This funding could go a long way to make our non-profit public health-care system a lot better....

I believe the NDP at least, unlike the Liberals, actually do care about the public system. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence they will actually fix it. They will pour in more and more money, but do nothing to address the systemic problems. The system will get much more expensive, but no more accessible.

Some of the systematic problems are leaks in the boat... where public money is pouring into private hands for profit... And when it's going into a private pocket, its not buying health care....

I believe the system is fixable. But the Liberals aren't interested, and the NDP isn't capable, due to ideological rigidity. I'm hoping the Tories can tweak the rules and do better.

Where the CPC ideology of giving the money to private companies for private profits that will be spent on .... boats, cottages, ski chalets... not to mention beer and popcorn..... or would it be Scotch and smoked salmon ....