Civilised Society - CRA files for poor people, Vote Harvesting

[August1991]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tax-filing-deadline-1.6825841

"With Monday's deadline for Canadians to file their income taxes for 2022, experts say a new pilot program for the government to automate the process for low-income Canadians is a long overdue step on the road toward doing them automatically for everyone."

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Surely, in a democracy, an individual can complete alone a tax form or a ballot.

(I understand that we often ask for advice when doing either: wives ask their husbands how to check the boxes.)

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To me, there is something fundamentally wrong when the State must complete the tax forms of citizens. 

Last point: I have lived in different places in my life. How to measure democracy? It is not voter turnout. It is tax compliance.

 

[eyeball]

52 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Last point: I have lived in different places in my life. How to measure democracy? It is not voter turnout. It is tax compliance.

Maybe for ordinary people, for the wealthy, the powerful and above all by else the influential tax avoidance is probably the more likely characteristic.

 

[August1991]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Maybe for ordinary people, for the wealthy, the powerful and above all by else the influential tax avoidance is probably the more likely characteristic.

 

No, I mean whether people pay taxes. It has nothing to do with voting.

In civilised countries, ordinary people pay their taxes. This is the State's legitimacy 

eyeball, when an ordinary person pays a tax - this is democracy, 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

To me, there is something fundamentally wrong when the State must complete the tax forms of citizens.

Why?  Many would argue there’s something fundamentally wrong when citizens are forced under threat of criminal prosecution to complete tax forms that the State already has copies of, while denying legal entitlements to citizens who fail to do so, many of whom are among the poorest and most vulnerable members of society

[August1991]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Why?  Many would argue there’s something fundamentally wrong when citizens are forced under threat of criminal prosecution to complete tax forms...

Wow! I'm not a Libertarian.

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I prefer a Federal State - but I'm willing to argue.

[BeaverFever]

3 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Wow! I'm not a Libertarian.

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I prefer a Federal State - but I'm willing to argue.

Huh?

[August1991]

19 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Why?  Many would argue there’s something fundamentally wrong when citizens are forced under threat of criminal prosecution to complete tax forms that the State already has copies of, while denying legal entitlements to citizens who fail to do so, many of whom are among the poorest and most vulnerable members of society

In this, you make a good point. The State bureaucrats know/have all these numbers.

Why are we wasting time re-entering these numbers a second time?

1. As a very poor person, can you trust the State bureaucrats?

2. As a very rich person, who calculates your taxes? 

[August1991]

BeaverFever,

IMHO, if an individual requires the State bureaucracy to complete a tax form, then the individual should not have the right to vote. 

[eyeball]

44 minutes ago, August1991 said:

No, I mean whether people pay taxes. It has nothing to do with voting.

In civilised countries, ordinary people pay their taxes. This is the State's legitimacy 

eyeball, when an ordinary person pays a tax - this is democracy, 

I never said a word about voting either.

Is it still a democracy when a wealthy/powerful and above all else influential person avoids a tax?

[August1991]

eyeball,

Ordinary Canadians and Americans pay taxes.

People in Ukraine don't.

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Since Putin, ordinary Russians pay their taxes. 

[BeaverFever]

34 minutes ago, August1991 said:

In this, you make a good point. The State bureaucrats know/have all these numbers.

Why are we wasting time re-entering these numbers a second time?

1. As a very poor person, can you trust the State bureaucrats?

2. As a very rich person, who calculates your taxes? 

1.a  It’s all calculated by computers anyway no matter who fills out the forms

1b the forms that taxpayer and tax agency both receive come from employers, banks etc, not “state bureaucrats” 

1c State bureaucrats” are professionals and not inherently evil or less competent then “very poor people”

1d “a very poor person” isn’t good to be any more competent at completing their taxes than the government’s computerized calculator which is of course rigorously tested and validated and also scrutinized by private sector accounting and legal firms

1e “a very poor person” would probably prefer the the government fill out the forms for free rather than hire an accountant 

 

2. I think thenide is very rich people or people with complicated returns will  still need to complete their own.

 

As I understand it the way it will work for everyone is that the current ”tax return filing” season will become a “tax return REVIEW AND EDIT season” where the government pre-fills your return and makes it available for you to review and make changes on say March 1. Then on the April 30 filling deadline if you still haven’t submitted the return manually it is submitted automatically 

[August1991]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

As I understand it the way it will work for everyone is that the current ”tax return filing” season will become a “tax return REVIEW AND EDIT season” where the government pre-fills your return....

As I posted, in Russia after 1991, sorta under Putin, people are paying taxes.

In Ukraine (been there), people don't pay taxes. Ukraine is a mess: East and West. The Americans are foolish to get involved.

 

[BeaverFever]

24 minutes ago, August1991 said:

As I posted, in Russia after 1991, sorta under Putin, people are paying taxes.

In Ukraine (been there), people don't pay taxes. Ukraine is a mess: East and West. The Americans are foolish to get involved.

 

?

[eyeball]

22 hours ago, August1991 said:

eyeball,

Ordinary Canadians and Americans pay taxes.

People in Ukraine don't.

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Since Putin, ordinary Russians pay their taxes. 

Yes and it's very likely Putin doesn't

So again I ask can we say Canada is a democracy when wealthy powerful and influential people in Canada also dodge taxes?

[August1991]

On 4/29/2023 at 10:00 PM, BeaverFever said:

Why?  Many would argue there’s something fundamentally wrong when citizens are forced under threat of criminal prosecution to complete tax forms that the State already has copies of, while denying legal entitlements to citizens who fail to do so, many of whom are among the poorest and most vulnerable members of society

And this is my point.

When people pay their taxes, they basically accept the legitimacy of the State. In effect, they vote.

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I understand that taxes are coercive but Canada and the US (for example) are successful civilized societies largely because ordinary people pay their taxes.

In the world, the way Canadians and Americans pay their taxes is remarkable. Even the Australians and British are different.

Edited May 2, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:13 PM, eyeball said:

Yes and it's very likely Putin doesn't

So again I ask can we say Canada is a democracy when wealthy powerful and influential people in Canada also dodge taxes?

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the State. The State has the power to tax. It can take whatever it wants.

Justin Trudeau and Vladimir Putin (for example) do not buy things the way that you and I do.

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Hillary Clinton once said that the White House was like a hotel with unlimited room service. It's the best description of the State.