Male - Female

[piercj2]

My bad, I honestly did not mean to type woman wrong. However, it is impossible to deny that there are alot of single woman out there who want to start families. I have plenty of freinds who have openly admitted this. Also, it is logical that if woman are spending money trying to meet other men, it means that they seek a meaningful relationship. And often, meaningful relationships lead to marriage. Also, if weman do not want to start a family, why are there so many weman who are looking to adoption, or other ways to have a family as a last result to having a family. Come on, everyone knows that woman apprecaite a family and a partner. Other proof of this is the fact, that millions of woman who go to prestigous universities set thier career path to mother hood. Even woman coming of out medical school and law school. If you are going to spend that much money on education, and then pursue motherhood, that is telling you something about the priorities of alot of woman. Honestly, there would not be so much bitterness towards men in our society either, if weman were totallly fullfilled. Come on, you know this is true.

[Black Dog]

However, it is impossible to deny that there are alot of single woman out there who want to start families. I have plenty of freinds who have openly admitted this.

And?

Also, it is logical that if woman are spending money trying to meet other men, it means that they seek a meaningful relationship.

Not neccesarily.

And often, meaningful relationships lead to marriage. Also, if weman do not want to start a family, why are there so many weman who are looking to adoption, or other ways to have a family as a last result to having a family.

Some do, some don't. You just can't say, though, that all women want X.

Come on, everyone knows that woman apprecaite a family and a partner.

Just because some women want something, it doesn't follow that all women want the same thing. There are women who want nothing more to be wives and mothers. There are women who want meaningful relationships, but also want careers. There are also women who don't want famlies or husbands at all.

Other proof of this is the fact, that millions of woman who go to prestigous universities set thier career path to mother hood. Even woman coming of out medical school and law school. If you are going to spend that much money on education, and then pursue motherhood, that is telling you something about the priorities of alot of woman.

All that tells me is that people's priorities can change. Or that women have more choices now than they used to, which is great.

Honestly, there would not be so much bitterness towards men in our society either, if weman were totallly fullfilled. Come on, you know this is true

I'm getting the impression that the unfulfilled, bitter one around here is you, dude.

[piercj2]

I am a little unfullfilled in some aspects of my life, but it is none the less true that I think that most woman would want to be married. The example that I gave about so many woman spending money on that kind of education, and putting countless hours in studying, and then being mothers really is ligitimant proof that there are millions of woman who really want a family and motherhood. Why in the world would you spend seven or eight years of your life working torwards something, and then right when you get the chance to finally pursue your profession you never even begin, not to mention the amound of loans that the have to pay off. Sorry, but this really is very real proof, but for some reason you really will not admit that millions of woman desire a family and a husband.... I dont know why. And if woman were not bitter, they would not be writing books like, "Are men Neccesary" by Marine Dowd come on

[Black Dog]

I am a little unfullfilled in some aspects of my life, but it is none the less true that I think that most woman would want to be married.

Look at the statistics. Marriage rates have been falling for decades while divorce rates are climbing. So, if all women want is to get married, why are fewer getting married and so many leaving marriages?

The example that I gave about so many woman spending money on that kind of education, and putting countless hours in studying, and then being mothers really is ligitimant proof that there are millions of woman who really want a family and motherhood

I'm not disputing that family and motherhood are important to a lot of women. But there's also milions of women who don't want either and millions more in between.

Why in the world would you spend seven or eight years of your life working torwards something, and then right when you get the chance to finally pursue your profession you never even begin, not to mention the amound of loans that the have to pay off.

The possibility of women having both a career and a family has completely eluded you, hasn't it?

And if woman were not bitter, they would not be writing books like, "Are men Neccesary" by Marine Dowd come on

Do we have to have another talk about the problems with generalizations again?

[piercj2]

I guess you are right, there are millions of weman who really don't care about having a family or husband, there are very few weman who are really bitter, if any at all. The weman who don't have families or husband never really wanted them any way, they planned it out just like that. If thats what you want to hear then that what I will say

[Black Dog]

I guess you are right, there are millions of weman who really don't care about having a family or husband, there are very few weman who are really bitter, if any at all. The weman who don't have families or husband never really wanted them any way, they planned it out just like that. If thats what you want to hear then that what I will say

Good.. Because it's a helluva lot closer to reality than your "all chicks want a man and those that don't are probably just a bunch of ugly lesbians or something".

[August1991]

Why in the world would you spend seven or eight years of your life working torwards something, and then right when you get the chance to finally pursue your profession you never even begin, not to mention the amound of loans that the have to pay off. Sorry, but this really is very real proof, but for some reason you really will not admit that millions of woman desire a family and a husband....

Geez, that's a good question. Why do women spend all that time and money for something they obviously don't want?

I guess weman are just stupid and irrational.

[piercj2]

I just came back to post something after reading some of the previous posts on this site about that little post that I wrote. I just wanted to get some stuff off my chest, some in response to earler posts. It is true that society is greatly effected by the way that males and females go to school together, have careers, and interact on an independent and equal standing. If you look at any data in the United States you will find that outcomes in our society show us this every day. For instance, there are fewer marriages in our country every year, nearly twice as many houses with a single mother leading, violence against women has increased, marriages happen later in life, relationships in general (especially in college) have come down to just random hook-ups with really no aspect of courtshipand dating, marriages are harder to keep and don't last as long, there is honestly more bitterness between the sexes, there is more crime and deviant behavior amonst young kids, more people depressed and in poverty, and possibly this effects our nation entirely. I mean, how many times do you turn on the news and hear about how some kid did something crazy (shoot someone, hurt someone, have premerital sex, commit suicide, commit a crime, eccctttt.). Its true, these kindof things go on in record numbers in our society. Isn't it just common knowledge to know that if there more dual parent households, there would be more income, more stability for the kids, better discipline and an overall fuller up bringing. The fact is youth is the most important part of any developing country, and our youth is as troubled today, more than ever before. And yes, fifty years ago alot of these problems did not exist. I am not saying it is all due to the fact that women in men are totally independent, but it does contribute. I mean fifty or sixty years ago, was the divorce rate this high? Where there more houses led by two parents? Was thier as many crazy crimes going on? Weren't relationships more on a equal footing, and easier to sustain? And as a result, wasn't our society, over all more moral and concentrated on maintaing traditional family values?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Women are good at school because they're more conformist and good at following rules.

Ever seen guys line dance? lol.

University is a great place to go if you want to end up in decent, limiting job. But it certainly isn't the prerequisite for success.

I work in a brokerage firm. The firm is chalk full of university grads (bachelors) including myself - mostly business degrees. Strange trend, though: the women University grads are mostly assistants and associates and the boys are all mostly stockbrokers. hmmmmm. Is this because of some unfair hiring policiy? Hardly. Being an assistant requires great skill and thought - but in a much more structured, rules and non-entrepreneurial sense; something girls are good at - fitting in and not taking risk. Brokers require confidence, balls and ego and a sense of "taking on the world" - something boys are good at. The often less-educate male brokers end up making a killing and the university educated girls end up working for them.

As far as how this dynamic in the workplace affects relationships, part of this is stuff hardwired in us from caveman days. Lets face it. When a 20-something woman walks into a job interview, the first thing the interviewer sees is "maternity leave". Why? because chances are she's going to end up getting married and having kids. Why are women, even better educated oned, less successful in the workplace? Try taking a big 15 year chunk of your career asidde to raise childeren and see if you measure up to the colleague who don't.

The president of Harvard said the same thing about a year ago and got lambasted for telling it like it is.

'nuff said.

[Black Dog]

I work in a brokerage firm. The firm is chalk full of university grads (bachelors) including myself - mostly business degrees. Strange trend, though: the women University grads are mostly assistants and associates and the boys are all mostly stockbrokers. hmmmmm. Is this because of some unfair hiring policiy? Hardly. Being an assistant requires great skill and thought - but in a much more structured, rules and non-entrepreneurial sense; something girls are good at - fitting in and not taking risk. Brokers require confidence, balls and ego and a sense of "taking on the world" - something boys are good at. The often less-educate male brokers end up making a killing and the university educated girls end up working for them.

Yay perpeutating shitty gender stereotypes! As I said to the other doofus in the other thread, I await your great insights about Jewish bankers.

Interestingly enough, nothing here about the gendered structure of opportunities in the labour market in traditional male-dominated areas like finance, science and engineering. What about the mentoring process of graduate school that tends to favor the status quo (in terms of not just gender, but also race and class)? The point is there are most definitely structures in place that privilege men over women, and even men over other men.

As far as how this dynamic in the workplace affects relationships, part of this is stuff hardwired in us from caveman days. Lets face it. When a 20-something woman walks into a job interview, the first thing the interviewer sees is "maternity leave". Why? because chances are she's going to end up getting married and having kids. Why are women, even better educated oned, less successful in the workplace? Try taking a big 15 year chunk of your career asidde to raise childeren and see if you measure up to the colleague who don't.

The president of Harvard said the same thing about a year ago and got lambasted for telling it like it is.

'nuff said.

And why are women still bearing the bulk of the responsibility for childcare? Why is "women's work" in the home valued less in comparison to "real" work? I'm not really surprised a broker would back an economist like Larry Summers. Something about working with money seems to attract real linear-thinkers.

[piercj2]

Black dog, stop shooting people down for telling the truth and speaking logic. I can't tell if your male, female, or even anything inbetween, but I can see you are a peon of a human being. Have some dignity and accept truth when you see it

[Nocrap]

I have no idea what this initial thread was about but I haven't laughed that hard in along time. You guys crack me up.

As far as the government legislating or promoting traditional marriage, as written earlier in the thread, it's not the government's job to tell us how to live. In a free society we can marry whomever we want, or not at all.

But then what do I know? I'm just a stupid weman.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yay perpeutating shitty gender stereotypes! As I said to the other doofus in the other thread, I await your great insights about Jewish bankers.

You have something against Jewish bankers now?

[betsy]

It is a different world now. I guess this must be due to the sad fact that I am now considered ancient.

Relationships aren't what it used to be. Boy, romance definitely isn't the same anymore either...thanks to feminism, I suppose.

The power struggle between male and female, the collapse of marriage (with the no-faulty divorce), the endorsements of Hollywood and the media, etc.., all contributed in changing the values of society.

I think majority of men and women, in the end, want to have a family...or a relationship akin to it. You hit a certain age and you start wanting it. It's hard to explain. And it's not just the sex either...it has to be something deeper than that. But again, I'm still part of that "old" world.

Maybe the young ones now won't feel that way. Who knows.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yay perpeutating shitty gender stereotypes!

Maybe you're right dog. Women don't have babies and leave the workforce. Must be my imagination.

Stereotypes don't just come from thin air smartypants.

[Black Dog]

Black dog, stop shooting people down for telling the truth and speaking logic. I can't tell if your male, female, or even anything inbetween, but I can see you are a peon of a human being. Have some dignity and accept truth when you see it.

More solipsism. You do know that the "truth" is not determined soley by how you view the world, right?

Maybe you're right dog. Women don't have babies and leave the workforce. Must be my imagination.

Um, where did I say that? I didn't. What I was saying is that statements like "women are good at x and not y" or even "men are not good at x and y" are often sure signs of gender stereootypes. Ans these things are so prevasive because they are self-affiming. Let's take your definition of the skills required to be a broker as an example:

Brokers require confidence, balls and ego and a sense of "taking on the world" - something boys are good at.

So you have a male-dominated profession definied in male terms ("balls"?) and you wonder why there's not as many women in it as men? If your a woman and you're interested in becoming a broker, do you suppose for a second that you might be a little discouraged from pursuing it as a career if you're told that ypu need "balls" and its something only men are good at it?

[JerrySeinfeld]

So you have a male-dominated profession definied in male terms ("balls"?) and you wonder why there's not as many women in it as men? If your a woman and you're interested in becoming a broker, do you suppose for a second that you might be a little discouraged from pursuing it as a career if you're told that ypu need "balls" and its something only men are good at it?

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

[Black Dog]

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

So you've no rebuttal, then? 'cause it's pretty clear your invocation of the bugaboo of "political correctness" is a cover for your lack of knowledge.

[geoffrey]

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

So you've no rebuttal, then? 'cause it's pretty clear your invocation of the bugaboo of "political correctness" is a cover for your lack of knowledge.

Well BD, let me put a question towards you on the women are better at x and men are better at y issue.

Why do boys on average do better in elementary (and more advanced I think too) Math than girls?

It would be completely wrong to say all boys are better than all girls in math. But on average, apparently boys are stronger at it in an elementary school. This shows that boys are naturally more adapt, on average, at this subject.

Guys are way more competitive, I don't think many would argue that, again, on average. Thats probably why you see guys go for the bigger positions, because they have that competitive 'better than the Jones'' attitude that women seem to not have, on average.

There are obvious exceptions, like the many women in positions of power in the corporate world. If you've met any of these women, you'll realise many times its more like talking to a sterotypical man. They can be all feminist, wearing their pink coats or what not and have extremely feminin traits, but their attitude is very competitive, prideful and direct. It's very enlightening on the issues to actually talk to these women in power.

BD come on and admit it. On average, men and women are better at different things. There are women completely able to do any "man's" job and we shouldn't label as such. But you'll always see more male executives, stock brokers and politicans, and you'll probably always see more women in fields like marketing (where women are actually really taking over).

[JerrySeinfeld]

So you have a male-dominated profession definied in male terms ("balls"?) and you wonder why there's not as many women in it as men? If your a woman and you're interested in becoming a broker, do you suppose for a second that you might be a little discouraged from pursuing it as a career if you're told that ypu need "balls" and its something only men are good at it?

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

Brokerage firms are meritocracies. Women aren't as successful in them as men. Get over it.

[Drea]

So you have a male-dominated profession definied in male terms ("balls"?) and you wonder why there's not as many women in it as men? If your a woman and you're interested in becoming a broker, do you suppose for a second that you might be a little discouraged from pursuing it as a career if you're told that ypu need "balls" and its something only men are good at it?

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

Brokerage firms are meritocracies. Women aren't as successful in them as men. Get over it.

All the brokers I know are women. Our mortgage broker is a woman. The person that deals with our RRSP's is a woman. The manager of the bank we deal with is a woman...

Just look in the latest copy of a real estate newspaper (mortgage brokers advertise there) and see how many are women.

I can't believe in 2006, people still believe women and men should be pigeon-holed into careers based on what's between their legs. It's 2006, men and women are equal. Get over it.

BTW, I know lots of women with "balls".

and it has nothing to do with what's between their legs!

[JerrySeinfeld]

So you have a male-dominated profession definied in male terms ("balls"?) and you wonder why there's not as many women in it as men? If your a woman and you're interested in becoming a broker, do you suppose for a second that you might be a little discouraged from pursuing it as a career if you're told that ypu need "balls" and its something only men are good at it?

Have you considered a career as a bureaucrat?

You'd be great at allthose feel good government funded sessions about BS politically correct anti-stereotyping.

Brokerage firms are meritocracies. Women aren't as successful in them as men. Get over it.

All the brokers I know are women. Our mortgage broker is a woman. The person that deals with our RRSP's is a woman. The manager of the bank we deal with is a woman...

Just look in the latest copy of a real estate newspaper (mortgage brokers advertise there) and see how many are women.

I can't believe in 2006, people still believe women and men should be pigeon-holed into careers based on what's between their legs. It's 2006, men and women are equal. Get over it.

BTW, I know lots of women with "balls".

and it has nothing to do with what's between their legs!

A woman working at a BANK? no...really? my point exactly. stable,rules-based, activity focussed, conformist, bureaucratic culture. perfect for most women.

I'm talking about stockbrokers.

[Drea]

A woman working at a BANK? no...really? my point exactly. stable,rules-based, activity focussed, conformist, bureaucratic culture. perfect for most women.

I'm talking about stockbrokers.

I work in sales and I am a woman...

sales is unstable, not rules-based, not activity focussed, non-conformist, non-bureaucratic culture.

Perfect for most women.

It was only a few years ago that a woman could be a nurse, a teacher or a mom. (say 1970).

Even in the 1980's when I was a young woman, we were encouraged to take "foods" and "sewing". No young girls took shop or metalwork. Today there is much less pigeonholing of roles.

And that is a good thing.

Most girls excel at reading -- my son reads and spells just like a girl - he's great at math too, but not as good as he is in english (literacy).

Most boys play sports, my son could care less about sports.

The point is all people are unique and different, even between the genders.

BTW, we (hubby and I) are our own stock brokers. (Dying breed that is) We simply do our trading over the internet.

[JerrySeinfeld]

A woman working at a BANK? no...really? my point exactly. stable,rules-based, activity focussed, conformist, bureaucratic culture. perfect for most women.

I'm talking about stockbrokers.

I work in sales and I am a woman...

sales is unstable, not rules-based, not activity focussed, non-conformist, non-bureaucratic culture.

Perfect for most women.

It was only a few years ago that a woman could be a nurse, a teacher or a mom. (say 1970).

Even in the 1980's when I was a young woman, we were encouraged to take "foods" and "sewing". No young girls took shop or metalwork. Today there is much less pigeonholing of roles.

And that is a good thing.

Most girls excel at reading -- my son reads and spells just like a girl - he's great at math too, but not as good as he is in english (literacy).

Most boys play sports, my son could care less about sports.

The point is all people are unique and different, even between the genders.

BTW, we (hubby and I) are our own stock brokers. (Dying breed that is) We simply do our trading over the internet.

lol. brokers aren't a dying breed. we cater to high net worth. but you're right, anyone can do it if they choose to do the research. It's kind of like finishing your basement or washing your car. Some people choose to do it themselves and do a pretty good job. but when you have a jag or a few million in your portfolio, it's worth the extra cost to makes sure its done right.

anyway - i digress.

I agree with you, Drea. Woman CAN do anything they want and I'm sure you're great at sales. Many are much better than their male counterparts. But you can't argue with the numbers. Career oriented, focussed, driven corporate leading women are still far less common than men. Sure, It's a generalization with many exceptions, but its also a fact.

[Drea]

anyway - i digress.

I agree with you, Drea. Woman CAN do anything they want and I'm sure you're great at sales. Many are much better than their male counterparts. But you can't argue with the numbers. Career oriented, focussed, driven corporate leading women are still far less common than men. Sure, It's a generalization with many exceptions, but its also a fact.

True. Perhaps as the next generation reaches their 40's and 50's things will be a tad more equal in that regard.

Sales is actually a very emotional business. People may think they are buying based on logic, but they buy based on emotion. Women are better at reading emotions than men (generalization!) so it stands to reason they are better sales reps.