Looks like we're going to the polls.

[apollo19]

I don't think the scare tactics will work this time.  The Left has called wolf a few too many times.

I was just wondering if a Quebecer could tell us what the French-Canadian response would be to a Conservative-led minority functioning with the Bloc? Would the BQ even go along with it (providing they lowered federal taxes, which would allow provinces to raise them)? This could have been true even in this parliament with them holding a majority. I think we all know the angle the LPC would take in English Canada, that is they would paint the CPC as "working with seperatists", but I'm not so sure that would fly anymore. McGuinty will probably popup in the campaign sometime with his proven fiscal imbalance, which may woo people here to vote a certain way. Is a Conservative-BQ "alliance" possible?

[shoop]

What seems to have happened is that Layton, like Martin, has shown that he is streets ahead of Harper and Duceppe in intelligence and political smarts.

In essence, he has said to the Bloc and the Conservatives: "call your motion and the wrath of the electorate will be on your heads." He can fight the election while claiming that he tried to avoid spoiling the holiday season.

Had he wanted an election with credit for it now, he would have moved a non-confidence motion more than a week ago. Then, it could have been held before the middle of December. Late enough to annoy but not of the season.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't even understand what being 'streets ahead' of somebody in intelligence and political smarts means. Guess that makes you streets ahead of me in both categories.

I just checked CTVs daily poll.

Do you believe the opposition parties should bring down the government and force an election during the holiday season?

Yes 54% No 46% N approx. 14,000

Won't be all that much of a wrath involved. Given that 51% of the respondents to that Ipsos-Reid poll on Saturday were supporting the Liberals or NDs I would say it is a sign that one or both are losing support still...

Layton isn't saying f**k all to anybody. He got screwed when he bent over for Martin in the spring - oh the tax cuts are being re-introduced sorry Jack.

Jack is trying to appear relevant. Something he hasn't been in about seven months or so. He is just getting the media into a tizzy for nothing.

There won't be an election before Xmas because Layton won't go through with it and Harper/Duceppe won't be fooled by him again.

[tml12]

Thats rather elitist of you to say, given that he is far and away the most trusted party leader by a large margin.

Well, them's the facts.

He is certainly not trusted by his Opposition 'partners', and for good reason. It's his call. Layton has a lot at stake now. If he ends up dealing with Martin now and supporting the government - as he so very desperately wants to do- it will cost him in the April election.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think so.

Layton WANTS to make a deal with Martin because he knows that is the best, perhaps only, way to get anything close to what the left-wing NDP wants done.

[August1991]

I don't think the scare tactics will work this time.  The Left has called wolf a few too many times.

I was just wondering if a Quebecer could tell us what the French-Canadian response would be to a Conservative-led minority functioning with the Bloc? Would the BQ even go along with it (providing they lowered federal taxes, which would allow provinces to raise them)? This could have been true even in this parliament with them holding a majority. I think we all know the angle the LPC would take in English Canada, that is they would paint the CPC as "working with seperatists", but I'm not so sure that would fly anymore. McGuinty will probably popup in the campaign sometime with his proven fiscal imbalance, which may woo people here to vote a certain way. Is a Conservative-BQ "alliance" possible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You raise an interesting question. Some thoughts:

William Johnson in his book about Harper implies that Canada needs someone like Harper now because he represents someone who will not play with footsie with the separatists. It was Harper who first suggested the idea of the Clarity Act.

At the same time, I suspect that Duceppe and Harper get along well as politicians. Both take a very principled view of politics and are not there simply to salve their egos. Duceppe wants a sovereign Quebec and Harper wants to change the way government works in Canada.

Most sovereignists would prefer to see the Liberals re-elected (and I think they will be). Sovereignists believe that another Liberal government will make it plain to all that Quebec and English-Canada see the country in very different ways.

You must understand that Harper is a complete unknown in Quebec. Bush Jnr is better known in Quebec than Harper is. People may know Harper's name but that's about all. I cannot foresee under any circumstances Harper winning any seats here.

As to your question about the BQ functioning with the Tories in parliament, I think it is possible although it would be more accurate to say that the Tories could manage to pass legislation with any of the parties. If Harper forms a government, the Liberals will be rid of Martin in short order and the Liberals will then go into leadership mode.

IMV, too much is made of the BQ's social policies. The recent manifest "Pour un Québec lucide" indicates the ongoing debate in Quebec between left and right. The BQ is in Ottawa to defend the interests of Quebec. I have heard it said that Duceppe chose to remain in Ottawa specifically to ensure there is no more funny-business during the next referendum.

A major issue between Harper and Duceppe would concern the so-called "fiscal imbalance". This would be a source of disagreement.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

The Left may have cried 'wolf', but the wolf is still there (actually... not a wolf, more like a....jackass)

People may know Harper's name but that's about all. I cannot foresee under any circumstances Harper winning any seats here.

If the 'right wing' had anybody more than halfway acceptable please put them forward! If the PC's had someone with a little more charisma than a dead fish, the Liberals would be at about 2% in the polls right now.

It does no good complaining that Harper is 'mis-represented in the press', or "He isn't such a bad guy". If MacKay were to take over the PC's tomorrow, there would probably be a 5-30% rise in their standings. Quebec excepted, of course, however there may be extenuating circumstances. MacKay was 'dumped' (or betrayed) by Stronach. He has avoided the 'cuckolded statesman stigma' because it was seen as a purely political move. The 'Quebecois' may become interested in him, and he is one of the best looking guys that the PC's have. (you know how mushy the French can get)

[Yodeler]

MacKay was 'dumped' (or betrayed) by Stronach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know what they say ... what goes around comes around.

[Leader Circle]

Dear August1991,

The Left may have cried 'wolf', but the wolf is still there (actually... not a wolf, more like a....jackass)

People may know Harper's name but that's about all. I cannot foresee under any circumstances Harper winning any seats here.

If the 'right wing' had anybody more than halfway acceptable please put them forward! If the PC's had someone with a little more charisma than a dead fish, the Liberals would be at about 2% in the polls right now.

It does no good complaining that Harper is 'mis-represented in the press', or "He isn't such a bad guy". If MacKay were to take over the PC's tomorrow, there would probably be a 5-30% rise in their standings. Quebec excepted, of course, however there may be extenuating circumstances. MacKay was 'dumped' (or betrayed) by Stronach. He has avoided the 'cuckolded statesman stigma' because it was seen as a purely political move. The 'Quebecois' may become interested in him, and he is one of the best looking guys that the PC's have. (you know how mushy the French can get)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A 5-30% rise????

Too funny!!!!

Can you describe him sir? Well he was 5ft to 7ft 1 inch, light or dark, with brown, blonde or black hair. Nice call Flea!!!

It is media spin on Harper, that's all. If you actually knew anything about the guy, other that the bullshit spread by our useless media, you may be able to make an informed opinion of him. Sadly, you are just like the average Joe Canadian flunky, that will believe anything your leftist media will shove down your throat!

They make him our to be the spawn of Satan with no personality, but they don't know him. No matter who the CPC sends out, the media will trash him to no end. This same old shit gets old. Nobody is buying crazy here flea, go sell it to the union!

[ScottBrison]

so incompetent they've taken the country from the wasteland that were the Mulroney years and rebuilt it.

By er, uhm, by what...

Just a few of many things.....

- Getting the fiscal house in order

- 8 strait balanced budgets (First balanced budget in 50 years)

- creating a climate for job creation

- restoring funding for literacy programs

- creation of a prenatal nutrition program

- Winning the Quebec Referendum

- Billions paid down on the debt (Resulting in lower interest payments)

- The Clarity Act

- Largest Tax Cuts in Canadian history

- Billions added to health care funding

- Upholding the rights of all Canadians (regardless of sexual orientation)

The GST wasn't just some new tax that was pulled out of the air, it replaced the MST (%13.5). A lot of Conservative Alliance folks seem to conveniently forget that part of it. You all seem to have this revisionist history where if not for the GST the government wouldn't have had any revenue at all.

No, the acievements of the Liberals on fiscal policiy has everything to do with their sound fiscal management and little to do with the GST (I'm not asinine like Conservative Alliance folks, so I will say the GST had something to do with it, but not nearly the magic Mulroney bullet the CA's think)

[shoop]

The GST wasn't just some new tax that was pulled out of the air, it replaced the MST (%13.5). A lot of Conservative Alliance folks seem to conveniently forget that part of it. You all seem to have this revisionist history where if not for the GST the government wouldn't have had any revenue at all.

No, the acievements of the Liberals on fiscal policiy has everything to do with their sound fiscal management and little to do with the GST (I'm not asinine like Conservative Alliance folks, so I will say the GST had something to do with it, but not nearly the magic Mulroney bullet the CA's think)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, pal again no need for insults. Asinine is going a little to far. Please respect the name of the party while you are at it.

The GST was an incredible improvement on the MST. It doesn't unfairly punish Canadian manufacturers.

Let's look at what the PCs did.

FTA and NAFTA have both helped fuel the increases in the Canadian economy.

The Feds had the first operating surplus in over 20 years under Mulroney. Another term and they would have ballanced.

Oh that is right the Liberals campaigned on cancelling the GST in 1993. Were they actually lying at the time?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leader Circle,

Sadly, you are just like the average Joe Canadian flunky, that will believe anything your leftist media will shove down your throat!

Hardly. Harper has blown it by saying he would have sent our troops to Iraq, something which would have deeply divided the country. He blew it by not going for the throat when the Liberals were sliding. It's not as though he hasn't got the ammunition.

Not sure which 'leftist media' you refer to, but in Calgary it could hardly be more to the right.

[Chimera]

Today's G&M poll

Look at the numbers at the very bottom. The interesting part is that the Green Party is actually benefitting from all these main party posturing shenanigans. The Conservatives are shown to be DOWN 3% IN THE WEST!!! The Greens meanwhile, are up 4%.

That is of course, if you actually believe in polls.

[shoop]

Those are very interesting numbers.

Basically nothing has changed since the last election. Gotta remember though the Liberals lost 7 points throughout the 2004 campaign while the Conservatives gained 2. Transpose those number onto this poll and you have results that mirror the poll that was released a couple of days ago.

Gonna be tough for Martin to hold onto leadership...

[Riverwind]

Basically nothing has changed since the last election. Gotta remember though the Liberals lost 7 points throughout the 2004 campaign while the Conservatives gained 2. Transpose those number onto this poll and you have results that mirror the poll that was released a couple of days ago.

This poll confirms my suspicion that the outcome of the election will be determined by a group of swing Liberal-NDP which represent about 5-10% of the electorate. This group of people would prefer to vote NDP but dislike the Conservatives so intensely that they will vote Liberal if it looks like the Conservatives might win power. Ironically, Harper is in the position that he has to convince these voters that it is 'safe' to vote NDP. For that reason the rhetoric/insults that Harper is hurling at Layton right now is exactly the wrong thing to do.

The same rational applies to Layton. If he paints Harper as the devil incarnant he will convince this group of people to vote Liberal.

[cybercoma]

And yes, I think someone who wants to subjugate an entire group of people based on something THEY ARE BORN WITH is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This just goes to show you don't understand the CPC's position on that particular item at all. Not that I expecct anything more out of you.

[wellandboy]

To Scott Brison

Could you clarify you statement about Harper being evil ? Hitler, Stalin or dare I say it Saddam Hussein were/are evil.

To whom are you referring to in your statement about subjugating people?

I eagerly await your response.

[Leader Circle]

Looks like Brison disrupts other forums too!!!

Isn't that right Hishighness???

ScottBrison/Hishighness AKA: Pain in the ass

He even quotes scripture? Who would have thought?

Scotty a religious homosexual? I thought homosexuals didn't believe in the Bible?

[Argus]

so incompetent they've taken the country from the wasteland that were the Mulroney years and rebuilt it.

By er, uhm, by what...

Just a few of many things.....

- Getting the fiscal house in order

- 8 strait balanced budgets (First balanced budget in 50 years)

- creating a climate for job creation

- restoring funding for literacy programs

- creation of a prenatal nutrition program

- Winning the Quebec Referendum

- Billions paid down on the debt (Resulting in lower interest payments)

- The Clarity Act

- Largest Tax Cuts in Canadian history

- Billions added to health care funding

- Upholding the rights of all Canadians (regardless of sexual orientation)

I asked you what they did, specifically. Over all those years. You respond with generalities and picayune things like restoring cuts to a literacy program. They got the fiscal house in order? How, Scotty? By slashing funding to health care, education and welfare? I notice you don't say that. In reality, they slashed transfer funds and left it up to the provinces to do the economising, to do the dirty work of closing hospitals and merging schools. Then they got on their high horses and proclaimed themselves the great defenders of health care.

The economic improvement had nothing to do with the Liberals. They had no policies or programs, no ideas, and frankly, no interest or care. All that happened was the worldwide recession eased, the US economy exploded, creating massive demand for Canadian imports, and that sparked job creation in Canada. Money poured into federal coffers through the GST, and the increased personal taxes. There never has been a single Liberal program which helped to create jobs. Let alone "creating a climate for job creation", and there never was a single program to help the economy.

They won the Quebec referendum? What arrogant sputtering dishonesty. They ignored the Quebec referendum in hopes it would all go away. They did nothing. The referendum was won with no help from Jean Chretien, who was busy holidaying at the time.

As for homosexual marriage: the Liberal party was against it for most of Chretien's term. Martin voted against it too. Only in the last few years did they seize upon gay rights as an opportunity to score electoral points against the Tories. If you actually think Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and most of their party give one nickel's care about homosexuals who want to get married you're even dumber than your posts would otherwise imply.

The GST wasn't just some new tax that was pulled out of the air, it replaced the MST (%13.5).

But it did not turn out to be revenue neutral. Far from it. The government takes in about $10billion more per year than it would if it still had the old MST.

And again, the Liberals benefited from the Mulroney government implimenting this, and the stubborness of the Tories in putting in in place - against ferocious, and as it turned out, completely dishonest and hypocritical opposition from the Liberals.

The only thing the Liberals could have been said to have done to help Canada fiscally was ignore their promise to get rid of the Mulroney GST. They did nothing else. Frankly, they weren't smart enough, and they had no ambition anyway. They only Canadians they had any interest in helping out economically were themselves.

[shoop]

To Scott Brison

Could you clarify you statement about Harper being evil ? Hitler, Stalin or dare I say it Saddam Hussein were/are evil.

To whom are you referring to in your statement about subjugating people?

I eagerly await your response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah Scotto. If you are gonna be a rude at least have the balls not to post and run.

[newbie]

I asked you what they did, specifically. Over all those years. You respond with generalities and picayune things like restoring cuts to a literacy program. They got the fiscal house in order? How, Scotty? By slashing funding to health care, education and welfare? I notice you don't say that. In reality, they slashed transfer funds and left it up to the provinces to do the economising, to do the dirty work of closing hospitals and merging schools. Then they got on their high horses and proclaimed themselves the great defenders of health care. 

The economic improvement had nothing to do with the Liberals. They had no policies or programs, no ideas, and frankly, no interest or care.  All that happened was the worldwide recession eased, the US economy exploded, creating massive demand for Canadian imports, and that sparked job creation in Canada. Money poured into federal coffers through the GST, and the increased personal taxes. There never has been a single Liberal program which helped to create jobs. Let alone "creating a climate for job creation", and there never was a single program to help the economy.

They won the Quebec referendum? What arrogant sputtering dishonesty. They ignored the Quebec referendum in hopes it would all go away. They did nothing. The referendum was won with no help from Jean Chretien, who was busy holidaying at the time.

As for homosexual marriage: the Liberal party was against it for most of Chretien's term. Martin voted against it too. Only in the last few years did they seize upon gay rights as an opportunity to score electoral points against the Tories. If you actually think Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and most of their party give one nickel's care about homosexuals who want to get married you're even dumber than your posts would otherwise imply.

The GST wasn't just some new tax that was pulled out of the air, it replaced the MST (%13.5).

But it did not turn out to be revenue neutral. Far from it. The government takes in about $10billion more per year than it would if it still had the old MST.

And again, the Liberals benefited from the Mulroney government implimenting this, and the stubborness of the Tories in putting in in place - against ferocious, and as it turned out, completely dishonest and hypocritical opposition from the Liberals.

The only thing the Liberals could have been said to have done to help Canada fiscally was ignore their promise to get rid of the Mulroney GST. They did nothing else. Frankly, they weren't smart enough, and they had no ambition anyway. They only Canadians they had any interest in helping out economically were themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Drivel. The Libs had responsible financing with 8 balanced budgets. Hardly a generality. And yes, there were short-term cuts, but necessary. You can't have it both ways Argus. As far as job creation, I'll let the facts speak for themselves:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm

[shoop]

Drivel. The Libs had responsible financing with 8 balanced budgets. Hardly a generality. And yes, there were short-term cuts, but necessary. You can't have it both ways Argus. As far as job creation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both the balanced budgets and the job creation owed a lot to the Free Trade Agreements and the GST.

Are you going to agree that both Turner and Chrétien were wrong in campaigning against both, or can you have it both ways newbie?

[Argus]

Drivel. The Libs had responsible financing with 8 balanced budgets. Hardly a generality.

It's not the least bit difficult to pay the bills when you have a lot of money. Or is that too complex an idea for you? Any idiot can balance a budget when the money is pouring in as it has been since the end of the world recession. You would have had to be a complete economic moron to not have had big surpluses in Canada given the economic circumstances.

And yes, there were short-term cuts, but necessary. You can't have it both ways Argus. As far as job creation, I'll let the facts speak for themselves:

I see no facts that need to be spoken. Did unemployment improve when the recession ended? Uhm, of course. It improved in the US, in Canada, and just about everywhere else. If you are going to suggest the Liberals are in any way responsible then provide me with the bills, policies, economic incentives and/or strategies which accomplished this task.

[shoop]

Don't hold your breath on that. Newbie won't provide any supporting information because he doesn't have any to give...

I see no facts that need to be spoken. Did unemployment improve when the recession ended? Uhm, of course. It improved in the US, in Canada, and just about everywhere else. If you are going to suggest the Liberals are in any way responsible then provide me with the bills, policies, economic incentives and/or strategies which accomplished this task.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[wellandboy]

I asked Scott Brison to clarify some statements he made that I found disturbing and offensive. Since he hasn't and probably won't, I'll comment. Hyperbole is one thing but I think describing Harper as evil is beyond the pale of reason. It appears in Mr. Brison's narrow view, that because an individual or group has a different set of values or beliefs they must be evil. At no time have I heard of Mr. Harper making any statement that would classify him as evil or wishing to subjugate any people. If Mr. Brison would be willing to provide empirical evidence to support his statements, I could actually respect his point of view. Otherwise it's just uncontrolled anger and vitriol spilling out on these pages that I'm certain if the shoe were on the other foot, would be called "propagation of hate".

What say you Mr. Brison?

[newbie]

[quote name=shoop' date='Nov 8 2005, 04:39 PM

Are you going to agree that both Turner and Chrétien were wrong in campaigning against both, or can you have it both ways newbie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FTA: both were right to campaign against it, softwood lumber just the beginning.

As far as unemployment rates, it is the lowest it's been in 30 years. Liberals in power for 2/3 of that time, hardly coincidental.

[newbie]

I see no facts that need to be spoken. Did unemployment improve when the recession ended? Uhm, of course. It improved in the US, in Canada, and just about everywhere else. If you are going to suggest the Liberals are in any way responsible then provide me with the bills, policies, economic incentives and/or strategies which accomplished this task.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't be able to dig up enough facts for your satisfaction.