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Jean-Kevin

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There are people who believe that werewolves exist, that Hitler only had one testicle, that a man born of a virgin would died and resurrected, that Noah's ark etc. and all these things must be believed perhaps because history ["this exact science"] tells so.

A convincing element with science such as that related to biology is not the argument of authority but its method (observation then theory then prediction then experiment) but with history it works how the observation ? Apart from the arguments of authority, what are the proofs that werewolves exist or existed ? [ ?️ the testimony.] What are the proofs that Hitler had just one ball ? [ ?️ the rumour.]

Do you have faith in history ? Do you believe that testimony, the argument of authority and rumour can be considered serious evidence ? (well, there's a bit of trolling and I'm not really asking to answer these rather grotesque questions but basically I'm trying to say that history can be a political/ideological/religious/sectarian issue, as can also be journalism, where there's also disinformation or fake news).         

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History is not science. It is based on original documents for the most part and just because I write something down, doesn't make it true. I studied the "Beer Hall Putsch" of 1923. General Ludendorff led a crowd of rebels, including Hitler, into the town square in Munich. There they came face to face with the cops. As shot was fired. From that moment on, there are hundreds of versions of what happened. History sometimes lies. 

There is a photo of Hitler in a massive crowd on the day the Great War broke out. Years later, his photographer heard Hitler was in the crowd and found him. The photo is faked. Hitler was there but the crowd was small...or not...or was he really there.

Historians offer their best guess based on corroborating documentation. The best historian I have studied is Barbara Tuchman. In her forward to A Distant Mirror, she points out she had to make her best guess regarding life in the Middle Ages. 

We do not know Noah's ark did not exist, it's just that there is no evidence that it did.

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History is not science.

There is a linguistic confusion. science means just knowledge so History is a science because it transmits a knowledgeThe problem is that when we talk about science we're talking about something that has to do with the scientific method.

If I talk about paleontology it is based on something more serious than history, we need only compare the evidence for the existence of non-avian dinosaurs with the evidence for the existence of Jesus to be convined of this.

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There is a photo of Hitler

For Hitler it is a near history, there are plenty of documents, videos, photos, radios, newspapers ... in short, plenty of elements to get a less subjective idea of what happened or not.   Afterwards, as for the "history of now", there are also false or fake news, disinformation. 

For other it is a distant history where there are few elements is when we ask for the sources, the elements of proof we have the feeling that we made us a good joke when they answer us the testimony, a book... 

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We do not know Noah's ark did not exist, it's just that there is no evidence that it did.

The history about Noah's ark seems to me a little too grotesque to be swallowed but in the meantime we can still say that this ark was not found on Mount Ararat or said in another way that it is not a discovery if it isn't the discovery of the existence of fake news or of the lie.

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On 8/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Jean-Kevin said:

Apart from the arguments of authority, what are the proofs that werewolves exist or existed ? [ ?️ the testimony.]

Nobody has ever testified to me that werewolves existed but I am intrigued by the current lore.  Why do you believe history, popular culture and current high-priced entertainment are littered with such stories? 

I believe there are many reasons.  The most important reason is to lead us to believe that diabolic behavior is natural. 

 

On 8/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Jean-Kevin said:

Do you have faith in history ?

I trust it repeats.

I observe an inhuman amount of effort spent to deceive the public about practically everything by people who look good and pretend to tell the truth.  

 

On 8/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Jean-Kevin said:

Do you believe that testimony, the argument of authority and rumour can be considered serious evidence ? 

No but it seems sufficient for 99% of the "science" most people believe to be true. 

 

On 8/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Jean-Kevin said:

(well, there's a bit of trolling and I'm not really asking to answer these rather grotesque questions but basically I'm trying to say that history can be a political/ideological/religious/sectarian issue, as can also be journalism, where there's also disinformation or fake news).         

Ultimately, do you believe you are entitled to know the truth about anything?

Does it makes sense to you that people would devote their lives studying/researching "science" or to spend inordinate amounts of resources funding such only to hand it to us for free?

I do not believe I am owed any such favor. I believe the truth is revealed through lies and logical inversions. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Historians offer their best guess based on corroborating documentation. The best historian I have studied is Barbara Tuchman. In her forward to A Distant Mirror, she points out she had to make her best guess regarding life in the Middle Ages. 

Why did she have to guess?  Why is she staking her reputation by offering guesses? 

 

8 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

We do not know Noah's ark did not exist, it's just that there is no evidence that it did.

We do not even know who wrote the 1st story of Noah's ark or when it was 1st written.  For all we know, it was written recently.  Regardless, it is a safe bet that you have a great-great-great-great-great-...-grand-father who was alive at the time Noah is purported to have lived and countless men have devoted their entire lives across many cultures to lead us all to believe Noah is he.  Why do you believe they continue to do so? 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jean-Kevin said:

The problem is that when we talk about science we're talking about something that has to do with the scientific method.

In my experience, the problem is that most people who refer to "science" as a catch-all are referring to indoctrination without questioning or verification. 

 

5 hours ago, Jean-Kevin said:

The history about Noah's ark seems to me a little too grotesque to be swallowed but in the meantime we can still say that this ark was not found on Mount Ararat or said in another way that it is not a discovery if it isn't the discovery of the existence of fake news or of the lie.

Why do you think so much effort is put into lying about the concept of divinity? or anything else, for that matter? 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEc9ZOdTeGY
Crackpot History and the Right to Lie -- Lincoln Theatre, Washington DC, September 23rd, 2019

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Seeing a notification that Charles Anthony quoted me in a topic is like getting a message that Human Resources wants to talk to me. ?

1 hour ago, Charles Anthony said:
13 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Historians offer their best guess based on corroborating documentation. The best historian I have studied is Barbara Tuchman. In her forward to A Distant Mirror, she points out she had to make her best guess regarding life in the Middle Ages. 

Why did she have to guess?  Why is she staking her reputation by offering guesses? 

 

The documentation and sources were so contradictory that there is no possibility for a definitive answer.

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I believe there are many reasons.  The most important reason is to lead us to believe that diabolic behavior is natural. 

There are many reasons but I don't think is this the reason. I think that wolves can attack humans, can be dangerous to humans and that this animal can become a symbol of fear that humans have created a myth, a scary movie story. 

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Ultimately, do you believe you are entitled to know the truth about anything?

In terms of justice, yes, or at least I assume that if someone kills someone in my family, I'll go to the trial not only to make sure he will be condemned but also to know or have an idea of the motive behind the crime. 

For the history for example I would like to know the motive of the crimes committed by the Jön Türkler against the Armenians. Are these political reasons related to the Islamic religion or not ? It seems to me that Erdogan has already rewritten history on this subject and so if I were Turkish I would know the story that is being sold to me in Turkey which may be the story of a political trickery exploiting history.

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Why do you think so much effort is put into lying about the concept of divinity? or anything else, for that matter? 

It is easier to manipulate irrational people than rational ones and the concept of divinity goes with the concept of the divine law, of the last judgment with a place of torture, a horrible thing reserved for those who have not submitted to the right doctrine.  

Apart from religion, there are political (see the story of Lysenko) and economic (fake news on the net are made for reasons related to money)

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For anyone who believes we have an accurate picture of history should read Josephine Tey's book, The Daughter of Time. Who killed the princes in the Tower of London, the Boston massacre wasn't a massacre, etc.

Memories change, stories change as they are repeated, faster than a covid 19 variant.

People, including historians, have bias. One historian was researching primary documents for a paper on Martin Luther. He came across a letter that was particularly damning to Luther. The historian was holding the letter in his hand and his cigarette lighter in the other. He made the choice not to destroy it, but if he had, history would have never known.

History is a large part entertainment. Historians love a good story. The Penobscot Expedition during the American Revolution led to Paul Revere's court martial for cowardice.

History is also self-serving. History records that John Diefenbaker was injured in England during training during the Great War. He was medically discharged and sent home, except any documents in support of this are missing, including the pages in his war diary. I like to think he was seconded to Mi6 and worked for Sidney Reilly as a spy. The fly in that ointment is the Reilly, the greatest spy the British ever had (he posed as a German officer on the Imperial German General Staff on the planning for the 1918 offensive) was actually Sigmund Rosenblum, a Russian who claimed to be a British spy, but there is no evidence he ever left Russia in his life.

Intrepid, spy master William Stevenson was a fantasist who took credit for everyone else's accomplishments. He was such a security risk, Mi6 shipped him off to neutral US to get him out of the way. There he teamed up with another blabbermouth, William "Wild Bill" Donovan. The two of them used to go to parties and brag to German diplomats about the exploits of British intelligence. Donovan later was part of the creation of the CIA which explains a lot.

 

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14 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Seeing a notification that Charles Anthony quoted me in a topic is like getting a message that Human Resources wants to talk to me. ?

 

LOL

I haven't seen Charles take part in a discussion in years. He's the moderator and apparently feels he shouldn't. On the other hand he doesn't moderate this group or any of the clubs. So it makes sense he should feel free to comment here.

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Argus,

I trust your judgement to moderate me. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

For anyone who believes we have an accurate picture of history should read Josephine Tey's book, The Daughter of Time. Who killed the princes in the Tower of London, the Boston massacre wasn't a massacre, etc.

Could you provide a brief synopsis of what you learned from reading that book?

I have never met anybody who believes we have an accurate picture of history. Have you?

 

 

7 hours ago, Jean-Kevin said:

There are many reasons but I don't think is this the reason.

Has anybody ever told you that werewolves are or were real?

 

 

16 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The documentation and sources were so contradictory that there is no possibility for a definitive answer.

What is so great about her? 

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Daughter of Time: It questions the historical theory that the princes Edward and Richard were murdered in their apartment in the Tower of London by their uncle, King Richard III. It also reveals that, contrary to the version that Home Secretary Winston Churchill ordered British troops to open fire on striking miners at Tonypandy, Wales, when he actually kept the troops thirty miles away. She said that the Boson Massacre was a dust-up that resulted in some bloody noses.  I used to believe history books were "the truth." But then I also believed all those urban myths as well.

Barbara Tuchman was one of the foremost historians of the twentieth century. The Guns of August, and A Distant Mirror  were my favourites. The Guns of August detailed the opening moves of the Great War and the other described the terrible 14th century with its famine and the Black Death.  If you read some of her books, you will understand why she was so great.

A delightful aphorism attributed to P. T. Barnum, or Mark Train or others: "It ain't all the things you don't know that cause the problems. It's all those things you do know that ain't so that gets you in trouble."

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