Canada's second rate health care system

[Argus]

Have had more experience with the health care system than I would have preferred the past six months, as both a close relative  and a close friend ran into problems which required medical intervention. It brought home (again) how crappy our system is. 8hr waits at the ER and months long waits for diagnostic tests, then even more months long waits for specialist services. The relative was given an appointment for a consult with a surgeon the other day - for November. And was told the only reason she got it that fast was because she went through the ER. Otherwise, they're making appointments for March. 

Canadians still seem to be under the illusion we have one of the world's top health care systems. Because we only ever compare ourselves to the US. If the provinces just spend a little more instead of cheaping out all will be fine! Only it won't be. We have a socialist health care system we share only with Cuba and North Korea in that it bans the sale of private health care. No one else does this. NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS. Why did we imitate Cuba and North Korea? Because Trudeau wanted to take on the mantra of the great saviour of the people and introduce a national health care system which would take care of everything. Even though it clearly doesn't. 

I came across an OECD study from 7 years ago which puts our wait times at the longest in the OECD. We STILL have the longest wait times in the OECD, along with fewer doctors, hospital beds, ICU beds and diagnostic machines per population than almost any of our allies. Yet as a recent report documents, we're actually paying more per person for health care than almost all other countries (the US always excepted of course). 

As Conrad Black points out, the earlier health care systems designed by Tommie Douglas in Saskatchewan and Quebec's Claude Castonguay had user fees and limitations, both of which Socialist Trudeau ignored. But small user fees - usually waived for the poor - are standard in most countries. As Black points out, and which I agree with:

Of course, even if it were entirely factual, our conception of our own health-care system would be completely insufficient as an explanation of our national purpose. And in fact, the claim was essentially nonsense from the beginning. By banning private medicine, Trudeau drove 10,000 doctors out of the country in the first couple of years. Our ratio of doctors to population is inferior not only to almost every other advanced country in the world, but even to such places as Argentina and Cuba. With an insufficiency of doctors and no user fees to discourage frivolous recourse to the health-care system, we are stretching an ever-tighter amount of available medical services over a steadily growing population. As a result, we end up rationing health care. The widespread belief among Canadians that everyone is receiving adequate health care at an affordable cost is essentially a fraud. If we incentivize the graduation of more doctors, and enable those who chose to, to deal with legitimate problems outside the public health-care system and have the costs deducted from their taxable income, a great deal of pressure would be removed from the public health-care system and much more comprehensive treatment would be available to people of modest means. 

We need a massive revamp of our health care system to bring it more in line with what western Europe has, and that includes the introduction of some private health care as well as user fees.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-s-health-system-ranked-second-last-among-11-countries-report-1.5533045#:~:text=The report ranked Canada 10th,equity and health-care outcomes.&text=Canada also ranked 9th out,as reason for its placement.

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2020/11/10/canadas-health-care-expensive-and-lagging-behind-oecd-countries/

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-ranked-last-among-oecd-countries-in-health-care-wait-times-1.1647061

[myata]

A quick look at the history also shows that Canada was among the last in developed countries to introduce public health insurance or equivalent. Could it be another manufactured national myth like smiling beavers almost exterminated in reality?

Edited August 6, 2021 by myata

[CITIZEN_2015]

I have said it before. We need private health care alongside the public one that we have. This way those who choose will pay for their services like tests and surgeries and hence reduce the burden on public health and thus improving public health care system in Canada.  It will be a win-win situation. Those who can afford it will pay and get a better and faster service and those who can't afford to pay will still get a better and faster service as demand for public system will be reduced. I don't understand the mentality of support for having a public health only that all political parties are supporting. No party has the ball to do the right thing and allow private health care to thrive in Canada and everyone wins.

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

No party has the ball to do the right thing

Yeah why is that, if its so helpful to society?

Answer- because it ain’t.

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

No party has the ball to do the right thing

Yeah why is that, if its so helpful to society?

Answer- because it ain’t.

[myata]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah why is that, if its so helpful to society?

While I'm not sure private healthcare would magically fix any / all problems (unless for a selected group of patients that has few problems anyways) the reason exists for both default ruling parties. As a nation we need to hold on to something defining us, and healthcare has been drummed so much to almost become the sole cause defining this country (what else really? Truly equitable society, with excellent quality services affordable for all citizens? Sustainable harmonic communities? World's best preservation of natural environment? Excellence in research and development stemming from excellent, affordable lifelong education?) while in reality it was among the last to adopt it. And now it's in near-permanent crisis no matter how many public billions are thrown at it.

[Argus]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah why is that, if its so helpful to society?

Answer- because it ain’t.

Right now the number of doctors (and nurses) is deliberately limited by the government to save money. With private hospitals and clinics we could train and graduate more doctors, and have more diagnostic machines and beds. We should also introduce user fees like other countries to discourage overuse of the system.

[Argus]

Right now, as one example, if you need a doctor after hours in this city your only choice is to go to the hospital ER and wait for six to eight hours. If there were a for-fee urgent care clinic available 24rs people with the means would go there and pay. This would not only save them time but would lead to a less crowded ER. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah why is that, if its so helpful to society?

I told you. They don't have the balls to do the right thing. The socialists, NDP and even opportunist Conservatives will attack them crying foul.

Edited August 7, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Right now, as one example, if you need a doctor after hours in this city your only choice is to go to the hospital ER and wait for six to eight hours. If there were a for-fee urgent care clinic available 24rs people with the means would go there and pay. This would not only save them time but would lead to a less crowded ER. 

Im not saying the system we have isnt broken. But that doesnt mean every solution proposed is a good one.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I told you. They don't have the balls to do the right thing. The socialists, NDP and even opportunist Conservatives will attack them crying foul.

The right things must be done. Saying they dont have the balls is a non answer.

Because they know that will only help the upper income earners, creating a stratified society. It’s not a viable solution. That is the reason.

Edited August 7, 2021 by OftenWrong

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

The right things must be dine. Saying they dont have the balls is a non answer.

Because they know that will only help the upper income earners, creating a stratified society. It’s not a viable solution. That is the reason.

No they help everyone. By making the upper class to pay for services in a private system, there will be more, better quality and faster services for the lower middle incomers who will use public health.

[OftenWrong]

20 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

No they help everyone. By making the upper class to pay for services in a private system, there will be more, better quality and faster services for the lower middle incomers who will use public health.

Sure. And I’ve got some prime quality swamp land in Florida for you to buy as well.

 

[Shady]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:41 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I have said it before. We need private health care alongside the public one that we have. This way those who choose will pay for their services like tests and surgeries and hence reduce the burden on public health and thus improving public health care system in Canada.  It will be a win-win situation. Those who can afford it will pay and get a better and faster service and those who can't afford to pay will still get a better and faster service as demand for public system will be reduced. I don't understand the mentality of support for having a public health only that all political parties are supporting. No party has the ball to do the right thing and allow private health care to thrive in Canada and everyone wins.

Exactly.  I believe Germany has a public system as well as a private one if you want to opt out of public health care.  

[myata]

Without choice and accountability, no bureaucratic system can be efficient and affordable. Worse, it would evolve over time toward ever higher cost for diminishing output. Haven't we just seen it with our own eyes? Fix healthcare for generation, sure. Public billions countless (how many?) spent, done. Waiting times? Anybody could tell me what happened to waiting times? Have they been fixed already? And that was even before Covid.

CEO salary? Could someone tell what happened to CEO and MP salary over the same period? And what relation would it have to the waiting times?

Is it not enough evidence to prove finally, that by itself, without feedback and oversight the system would never fix itself? Why would it, there's nothing wrong with the things as they are as it sees them.

Edited August 9, 2021 by myata