Martin to press Rice on guns

[Leafless]

Condoleeza Rice is coming to Ottawa and PM Paul Martin is going to hammer away on softwood lumber and that Americans have an obligation to help stop the smuggling of guns into Canada.

I think it's bad enough we cannot own handguns for personal safety and protection and now we are going to have our prime minister chatizise Condoleeza Rice for Americans not doing enough concerning smuggling hand guns acrooss the border.

To find a metal hand gun in a metal car is pretty hard to do without dismantling the automobile.

More to the point what are Canada's border security officials doing about all of this.

I doubt very much if Mr. Martin will be able to force the U.S. to abide by Canada's gunless society (hand guns).

Actually a lot can be done in Canada by simply increasing the penalities for illegal firarm possession, let's get tough with our own criminals and increase the penalities for murder also (no parole for starters).

This is buck passing Canadian style and in combo with softwood lumber is embarrassing to Canada and Canadians.

Better watch it Mr. Martin maybe the U.S. clamping down on more border security in effect will have major implications on cross border trade.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

I think it's bad enough we cannot own handguns for personal safety and protection

No, it is great. 'Self Defence' by handgun is a fraction of the purposes they get used for. Besides, it is illegal to shoot anybody in self-defence in Canada anyway.

Actually a lot can be done in Canada by simply increasing the penalities for illegal firarm possession, let's get tough with our own criminals and increase the penalities for murder also (no parole for starters).

I am in agreement, and the gun registry fiasco could be put to rest.

This is buck passing Canadian style and in combo with softwood lumber is embarrassing to Canada and Canadians.

No, taking the 'one-eyed trouser snake' up the backside from the US on trade is what is embarassing. If you think we should just 'drop our britches and take it with a smile', I suggest you stand first in line. (Or would they start from the back...?)

I am glad that the PM P.M. is willing to get firm with the US on this trade issue. However, Mr. Martin should watch his wording, for people might get the wrong impression if he says "Taking it up the backside makes me get firm".

[Leafless]

theloniusfleabsag

I am talking about a change in law that would make it legal to own a handgun and use it self defense.

It would be interesting to see the statistics on 'hand gun abuse' in the U.S. and and verify if in fact this constitutes needless injury or death in cases arising from self defense.

We all pretty well know if anyone wants a gun they will probably find one.

I think the problem in Canada especially Toronto is the type of mentality that has no problem pulling the 'trigger'.

It would be interesting to note if the majority of gun related deaths in this area is immigrant related and if they are could represent a 'red flag' for the Martin government and their immigration policy. I have not come across any stats in this area.

Anyways here is a link to the original Martin-Rice story-

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/10...pf-1276365.html

[Guest eureka]

How many times do the statistics have to be pested before they sink in. More thsn ten thousand gun related deaths in the USA in each year should make you not want to exercise their "freedom."

[Leafless]

eureka

Forty-four thousand U.S. residents die from automobile accidents, far more than gun related deaths and put bluntly their deaths are directly attributed from owning and driving a motor vehicle.

Gun ownership for protection and self defense is not the main issue of my post.

The abuse I was reffering to was not actual gun realted deaths but if you wish to debate that aspect, fine.

Guns are like automobiles and they will be misused, they will be used relating to suicides and they are related to accidental death.

The point is, which is more important.

The right to defend yourself or your property or your family under excruciating conditions or being physically threatened with death or unknown injuries which is not totally uncommon in to-day's society vs. someone elses problems concerning firearms.

Calling police the recommended way is generally impossible under most conditions involving emergency situations concerning life threatining situations.

I am for gun ownership and consider this no different than owning a car. In our society there will always be individuals abusing the main purpose of a of a legal right but I don't think this should overide your right to defend yourself in lifethreating situations.

[newbie]

eureka

Forty-four thousand U.S. residents die from automobile accidents, far more than gun related deaths and put bluntly their deaths are directly attributed from owning and driving a motor vehicle.

Gun ownership for protection and self defense is not the main issue of my post.

The abuse I was reffering to was not actual gun realted deaths but if you wish to debate that aspect, fine.

Guns are like automobiles and they will be misused, they will be used relating to suicides and they are related to accidental death.

The point is, which is more important.

The right to defend yourself or your property or your family under excruciating conditions or being physically threatened with death or unknown injuries which is not totally uncommon in to-day's society vs. someone elses problems concerning firearms.

Calling police the recommended way is generally impossible under most conditions involving emergency situations concerning life threatining situations.

I am for gun ownership and consider this no different than owning a car. In our society there will always be individuals abusing the main purpose of a of a legal right but I don't think this should overide your right to defend yourself in lifethreating situations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I guess 44000 is a bit more than 34000. But realize this: Gunshot wounds are now the leading cause of death for teenage boys in America (white, African-American, urban, and suburban). http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1...24-6929,00.html

I can pretty much guess the bulk of those deaths weren't the result of self-protection.

Pretty sobering thought.

[Guest eureka]

Could you please tell me what deaths in automobile accidents have to do with gun related feaths: other tha that the Grim Reaper's task is eased?

Compare gun deaths with those of other nations if you want to make a point. You might not be so complacent about the US and its gun culture.

[Yodeler]

Condoleeza Rice is coming to Ottawa and PM Paul Martin is going to hammer away on softwood lumber 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SO??

What happened?

Did she snub him as I thought she would?

[Leafless]

eureka

You asked "What deaths in automobile accidents have to do with gun related deaths."

The emphasis is on 'ownership' and that there is a risk associated to driving an automobile just as there is a risk in firearms ownership --both can be abused or the risk can be reduced by applying responsibility.

BTW- The total number of deaths related to the automobile are much higher than the 44,000 I posted related only to collisions or accidents only and those other stats related to auto injury and other type of injury resulting in death relating to the automobile are hard to come by as they fall under many different separate categoriers.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear leafless,

The emphasis is on 'ownership' and that there is a risk associated to driving an automobile just as there is a risk in firearms ownership --both can be abused or the risk can be reduced by applying responsibility.

You are right. However, the main purpose of an automobile is transportation. The main purpose of a gun is killing. I would expect that the number of automobile deaths vs. the number of automobile trips is actually a very, very small ratio. The number of 'self defense' shootings are quite low compared to the number of cases of guns (handguns) used.

[PocketRocket]

Condoleeza Rice is coming to Ottawa and PM Paul Martin is going to hammer away on softwood lumber  and that Americans have an obligation to help stop the smuggling of guns into Canada.

Good for him.

I think it's bad enough we cannot own handguns for personal safety and protection and now we are going to have our prime minister chatizise Condoleeza Rice for Americans not doing enough concerning smuggling hand guns acrooss the border.

I own a couple rifles, but no handguns. Don't see a need for it.

Certainly don't see a need to carry to protect myself.

As for the USA helping with smuggling of handguns, well, they want us to help prevent pot moving south, what's the problem with asking the to return the favor with guns moving north???

Actually, the ease with which a pistol can be purchased in the States is ludicrous.

I spent several months touring parts of the US in a couple bands I've sorked for over the years.

Last time, in '94, I was in a gun shop. Asked about buying a pistol.

The guy made it perfectly clear that if I was willing to shell out an extra $20.00, he'd give me a pistol immediately, citizenship notwithstanding.

That's how easy it is, and that's in a legal firearm outlet.

Another thing I have a bit of an issue with is the right to carry, anywhere (almost), and any time.

In only 4 or 5 months worth of work in the USA, I saw more instances of a gun being fired, either in a bar, or in the street directly outside, than I have ever seen in Canada.

That wouldn't be hard as I've never seen someone pull a gun in public in Canada.

But when you see it happen 2 or 3 times a week, it kinda makes you wonder.

[Leafless]

PocketRocket

I to have visted nightlife in the U.S. but did not experience what you have concerning the number of shootings. Obviously hotels and the street are the main places for gun activity.

But this does not surprise me as the U.S. is 10-15 years ahead of Canada socially and we are begining to see what lawlessness pertaining to shootings especially in larger cities like Toronto with Canadian officials presently UNABLE to stop it.

I presently don't own any guns but depending where I live and if legal I possibly would carry a handgun simply for self protection for the same reason so-called subway vigalnte Bernard Goetz did.

It will be interesting to note what federal officials will do concerning legalizing handguns or building more prisons in 10 years time as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

[Black Dog]

It will be interesting to note what federal officials will do concerning legalizing handguns or building more prisons in 10 years time as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

Maybe we should look at the social issues that lead to violent crime, instead of making the same mistakes our neighbours have.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

I wouldn't call this 'catching up' to these American values, more like 'sinking down to'. However, I believe you and Black Dog are right,

Maybe we should look at the social issues that lead to violent crime, instead of making the same mistakes our neighbours have.

As is Mr. Thompson, to a degree.

John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, agreed that the Americans are doing a lot to combat gun-running. But he said Canada has a gang problem, not a gun problem.

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/Natio...rc=n102511A.xml

[RB]

Well, I guess 44000 is a bit more than 34000. But realize this: Gunshot wounds are now the leading cause of death for teenage boys in America (white, African-American, urban, and suburban). http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1...24-6929,00.html

I can pretty much guess the bulk of those deaths weren't the result of self-protection.

Pretty sobering thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought Toronto was talking about curfews for the young ones, whatever happened to that idea.

[RB]

It will be interesting to note what federal officials will do concerning legalizing handguns or building more prisons in 10 years time as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

Maybe we should look at the social issues that lead to violent crime, instead of making the same mistakes our neighbours have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

look for answers at root cause: folks are from these war-torn and problem countries and familiarity with guns, weapons, arms etc. transfer in their behavior plus the poor neighborhoods simply create more stresses for those who cannot get out of poverty

- I have seen some of these folks gazed into space and nothingness - literally

[Melanie_]

I am talking about a change in law that would make it legal to own a handgun and use it self defense.

Is there really such a need for guns for self defense? How many of us have ever been in a situation where we said, "If only I could defend myself with a gun right now!"

It will be interesting to note what federal officials will do concerning legalizing handguns or building more prisons in 10 years time as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

A very pessimistic view of humanity's future - is there no opportunity for people to grow in a positive direction in regards to morality, values and respect? You live in a very dreary world!

[Leafless]

Melanie_

You said-"Is there no oppurtunity for people to grow in a positive direction in regards to morality, values and respect? You live in a very dreary world."

You all most make me think this is all my fault.

RB touches on certain problems but no one can force another to live under certain preffered ideals.

As it was pointed out by there is a problem with gangs in Canada and many social problems caused by many different lifestyles in a congested enviroment with no real answers to accomodate the many have-nots in basically what is perceived by many as a affluent society.

We are simply catching up to U.S. big city problems and I don't really see the Liberals in this country providing any sort of answers but actually complicating matters and adding to the problem by not diversifying the immigrant population but instead allowing them to settle where they want with one of those cities being Toronto without the proper infrastructure to accommodate the extra masses and cultures.

Don't worry I have positive attitudes but increasingly I find Iam losing an uphill battle to trying to maintain my own morality, values and respect towards others.

There is a definate problem with immigration to-day vs. a family grown population.

A family grown population is accomodated by their family up to a certain point and not generally a burden on society-then become productive members of society.

An immigrant population the way it is now is imposed on society with many immigrants cluless concerning Canadian morals, values and totally unfamiliar with customs and modern living. This present government is encouraging fractionation of our society which is part of the Liberals multiculturalism official policy.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

This present government is encouraging fractionation of our society which is part of the Liberals multiculturalism official policy

Don't blame the Liberals, it has been canada's immigration policy since I can remember. The comparison between the US and Canada on immigration was always:

USA= melting pot

Canada= mosaic

There are bad eggs in both our baskets, and from every race, creed and colour.

[Leafless]

theloniusfleabag

Multiculturalism can be reffered to as 'segregation of the races' and there is a word to describe this and I fail to see how this is good for the country.

Do you actually think this is superior to Canadianisation and do you know of another country that has success with multicuturalism?

Multiculturalism originally was initiated to accommodate bilingualism but has been expanded -but the problems associated with it namely the huge cost cannot be sustained along with the lack of control with immigration associated with this policy has caused large cities to become dysfunctional due to the diversity of so many different groups.

[newbie]

This present government is encouraging fractionation of our society which is part of the Liberals multiculturalism official policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's not forgot who passed into law Canadian Multiculturalism Act 1988; our old friend Brian Mulroney. Lest we forget, his was the administration of appeasement, from his failed Meech and Charlettown accords, to RCMP wearing turbans.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

immigration associated with this policy has caused large cities to become dysfunctional due to the diversity of so many different groups.

Dysfunctional? Hardly. Enlightened, maybe, for I embrace all cultures and try to learn from them. I love ethnic foods, and small, excellent ethnic restaurants are everywhere. I have made many friends who have taught me to speak some Punjabi, Cantonese, and Greek. We have shared recipes, political viewpoints, and quite often drinks. The one overwhelming thing that I have found out through all of it is that we are all basically the same.

[PocketRocket]

Well, did a quick search regarding violent crime in Canada, compared to USA.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=canada...o+present&meta=

.....said.......

Presently, Canada's violent crime rate is roughly similar to that of the United States.

What we do know is that the United States has a murder rate almost twice that of Canada.

It also went on to opine.....

Historians point out, however, that this is unrelated to Canada's gun control laws as Canada's murder rate was lower than that of the United States for many years before it had any gun control.

This site.....

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

.....shows Canada with a homicide rate only 1/4 that of the USA.

Other sites show the homicide rate in Canada actually falling over the past several years, just as it is doing in the USA as well.

So regarding these points....

It will be interesting to note what federal officials will do concerning legalizing handguns or building more prisons in 10 years time as Canada catches up socially with individuals with no morals , values or respect for their fellow man.

Maybe we should look at the social issues that lead to violent crime, instead of making the same mistakes our neighbours have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.....it seems that the trend is actually in the opposite direction, although I do agree with 'DOG in that we should indeed be looking to social issues.

But one thing is certain; we've all heard about drive-by shootings.

Never heard of a drive-by stabbing.

When you have to get close-up and personal, then murder loses some of its urban "appeal".

Handguns are a lot easier to conceal than a rifle, and are the weapon of choice for such shootings.

No need for them.

[RB]

The best way to help folks is to use big words such as INTERVENTIONS as we do now:

Cough up enough tax payers dollars for settlement, training, upgrading, labor market information, language skill, make moves on cultural intelligence, show about job find, settle legal issues then put them on welfare. In addition, since those methods listed have not worked in the past, try some more different methods, would include offering computer services for free, life skills orientation and pre-employment counseling to make folks job ready.

I mean you do everything except help folks connect with jobs, help them land a job, maintain a job and integrate them sucessfully into the Canadian marketplace.

In Canada we are inclined to boast of friendly service, doing everything we can, always smiling.

The result no one is getting jobs!

Folks are not assimilated into the economy

Hence, they won’t own wealth, have much capital to work with and plus we are spending more while organizing useless labor

Result more depressed people who cannot access the system.

Result trouble groups

Result poor people gathering.

Result no relief.

Result who cares, despair.

Result no worthwhile contribution to society

Result no responsibility

I mean it’s the “undesirable” groups that are eliminating each other so what’s the worry

[Leafless]

newbie

You wrote- "Let,s not forget who passed into law the Canadian Multicultural Act 1988; our old friend Brian Mulroney."

Well, lets not forget who passed multiculturalism as state policy way back in 1971 and became part of our constitution in 1982 both times owing to our old friend Pierre Trudeau.