When they talk about de-funding or dismantling Law Enforcement

[Argus]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

It's weird how Conservatives hate all levels of public service except the Hall Monitors with guns that patrol our cities and towns. 

There is, most certainly, a need for policing. But police don't reduce crime, lowering poverty reduces crime. 

The poverty rate among Hispanics in the US is higher than for Blacks, yet their crime rate, and particularly their violent crime rate is far lower.

A huge amount of Canada's crime, especially it's violent crime, comes from the immigrant community. Maybe we should reconsider the wisdom of bringing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants and refugees from the third world every year, many tens of thousands of whom do not have the skills for economic prosperity in Canada. Bringing in all these people to live in poverty simply to enhance the party's chances of winning votes from various ethnic groups is despicable.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/mostwanted.php

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/wanted

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

The reason George Floyd is being martyred, is because he was so obviously murdered by a police officer. He wasn't a threat, he was unarmed and he was handcuffed, yet he still ended up getting killed. 

It's more of a straw that broke the camel's back regarding this police brutality thing. 

Nobody gives a shit about police brutality unless it involves a white cop and a black victim. And nobody is talking about police brutality either, except as it relates to minorities. No one.
George Floyd was a lifelong criminal who went bananas when placed in the back of a police car because of the meth and fentanyl he was on. He was dragged out to await an ambulance and pinned to the ground. Was he pinned too long? Sure. But I'm willing to bet that cop had held down similar addicts for years without causing harm. This one, unfortunately, had too much drugs and a bad heart. I find it hard to cry for someone who puts that shit in their body.

3 hours ago, Boges said:

And unlike in past years, there's clearly an appetite for hearing African-Americans out in regards to police brutality. 

Yes, liberal self-loathing and guilt is at a peak. And lots of them are willing to get outraged without bothering to inquire into the details of what they're outraged about.

[Argus]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

2) Blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate than Whites and are killed at a higher rate based on their representation in the population. 

Blacks commit crimes at a far higher rate than Whites, especially murders, far higher than their numbers in the population. Who do you imagine the police are having confrontations with anyway if not criminals?

Quote

3) This is where this debate will circle the drain. Racist will continue to contend that more black are put in jail and killed because they somehow deserve it, or that they're more violent than others.

Morons will claim this is racist even though they will never bother to read the statistics which show those claims are true. Nor will they even be aware of the fact black leaders don't deny those statistics are true.

Quote

Those aren't debates that can be won or lost with facts,

Because the Left is not interested in facts

Quote

they're just feelings because for decades black and indigenous communities have been put into cycles of poverty by past generations.

I doubt you know much of anything about black history in the United States. Or, for that matter, in Canada. I guarantee you haven't read or watched anything Thomas Sowell has said or written about the rising level of Black economic prosperity right through the sixties until it met the welfare state. I'm sure you won't have read his study which compared the outcome for the children of Caribbean blacks. Such children, despite looking and sounding like all other Black Americans earn 58% higher incomes, have much lower crime rates, much higher rates of high school graduation, and much higher levels of university graduation. Studies of African immigrants and refugees have shown the same thing.

Quote

4) Who cares what you or I think? This is the side of history you find yourself on. The more you want to contend that racism doesn't really exist the more you look like a dinosaur.

The more you demand everyone agree that racism is everywhere without being able to point to it the dumber you look.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

There are systematic reasons for that. But it's when you see a black person that isn't being violent that gets murdered, that's when you get BLM protests.

There were a total of NINE unarmed blacks killed by police last year in the US (Note, unarmed does not mean they weren't resisting arrest). Given the millions upon millions of police interactions with the Black community and the inherently confrontational nature of many of those interactions, that's an astonishingly low figure. The number for whites is 18. Not that anyone gives a shit about that.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

That quote is so racist, I can see where you get your opinions from. 

Blacks are more violent, so they deserve to deserve to be killed by the police. 

George Floyd and Breonna Taylor weren't violent. 

George Floyd stuck a gun in a pregnant woman's belly and demanded money after breaking into her home. George Floyd was high on meth and fentanyl when he thrashed around in the bakc of a police car after being arrested for trying to post a counterfeit bill. Nevertheless, his death, like that of Taylor, were accidents, largely due to poor training of the police involved.

But don't let that pause your hysteria.

[New World Disorder]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

That quote is so racist, I can see where you get your opinions from. 

Blacks are more violent, so they deserve to deserve to be killed by the police. 

George Floyd and Breonna Taylor weren't violent. 

George did not deserve to die on the street. However, painting him as a saint, is far from reality.  Saying he was not violent either, is incorrect.

I cannot say about Breonna Taylor,  i don't know enough about that situation.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/2020/06/09/george-floyd-gentle-giant-with-a-criminal-record-who-found-redemption-in-religion

 

[New World Disorder]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

There were a total of NINE unarmed blacks killed by police last year in the US (Note, unarmed does not mean they weren't resisting arrest). Given the millions upon millions of police interactions with the Black community and the inherently confrontational nature of many of those interactions, that's an astonishingly low figure. The number for whites is 18. Not that anyone gives a shit about that.

Nine?? That number seems low. What is your source?

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Really? 

You have a fact that more Whites are killed by the Cops. 

Then it's pointed out that Blacks are actually killed at a higher rate. 

So then it HAS to be because they're involved in more violent crime, which justifies why they're killed at a higher rate. Which is highly racist.

How can you argue so passionately about racism when it's clear you don't even know what racism is? It's not racist to simply mention the elementary logic that police are going to have violent conflict the most with criminals.

This is the race/crime stats from New York, a city controlled by a very liberal administration for quite some time. I like it because it has very neat tables on suspects and victims of crimes by race.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2019-enforcement-report.pdf

I'll save you the bother of scrolling through it. Here they are.

Percentage of crimes with black suspects.
Misdemeanor criminal mischief     51%
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter 62.4%
Rape  46.5%
Other felony sex crimes 41.6%
Robbery  66.2%
Felonious assault 53.4%
Grand larceny 60.5%
Misdemeanor sex crimes 42.4%
Misdemeanor assault  52.1%
Petit larceny 53.8%
Misdemeanor criminal mischief 51%
Shootings 74.4%
Firearms arrests 70.9%
Drugs 45%
Property crime (stolen property) 54.7%
Misdemeanor juvenile suspects  64.1%

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Nine?? That number seems low. What is your source?

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population. The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015.

The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.

http://archive.is/OXbjA#selection-2485.0-2485.160

[New World Disorder]

Armed or OTHERWISE dangerous.  So the stats are not even accurate.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

Armed or OTHERWISE dangerous.  So the stats are not even accurate.

Dangerous is dangerous. For example, in the Ferguson case which started it all, with the shooting of Michael Brown, testimony by the cop, by witnesses, and by the evidence, including Brown's DNA on the cop, on his gun, and on the interior of his car, said that Brown, who was six foot 4 and weighed almost three hundred pounds, had violently attacked a police officer through the window of his car. After further struggles, brown ran and the cop chased him, but then Brown ran back at him (according to the cop and numerous witnesses) and refused to stop, so the cop shot him and he dropped about 8-10 feet away.

Unarmed black man killed by cop? Yeah, deservedly so.

Others have been shot while trying to run cops over with their cars. Still not armed, but still deservedly shot.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Argus

[New World Disorder]

22 minutes ago, Argus said:

Dangerous is dangerous.

Sure.  However when looking at those stats. There is a clear indication it is OTHERWISE.  There appears to be no distinction between them.

[Argus]

Just now, New World Disorder said:

Sure.  However when looking at those stats. There is a clear indication it is OTHERWISE.  There appears to be no distinction between them.

Blame the Washington Post.

[New World Disorder]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Blame the Washington Post.

So where did they get their stats from? 

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, Boges said:

It's weird how Conservatives hate all levels of public service except the Hall Monitors with guns that patrol our cities and towns. 

There is, most certainly, a need for policing. But police don't reduce crime, lowering poverty reduces crime. 

Toronto's police budget is north of a $1 billion dollars. A lot of that money could effectively go to assisting people in at risk areas. Instead of paying two people 6-figures to wait in a car at the bottom of a hill to give people $200 speeding tickets to justify their salaries. 

No, whats weird is most liberals seem to think that the Police are put on this earth just to harass them some how... I get it, it's all good until you need one in an emergency....

Not sure if you know exactly what policing encompasses, their is more to a police department than writing tickets, 

POLICE don't reduce crime, got a source for that brown, smelly piece of goo...And while you try to find a source for that, what is the plan to lower poverty, double or triple welfare checks, maybe call them something else....who pays for that ? and what prevents those in poverty from getting out of that classification, is it crime pays more, or education, getting pregnant at 14 , lack of will or drive what keeps them in their station in life ? 

The police budget should be increased , to provide for extra training, more equipment, more police officers, and yes perhaps some new departments that could better deal with metal health issues, massive drug problems in the our cities....And that 200 dollar ticket does not go back into the police department coffers, it goes back into the city budget to pay for anything, if your worried about speeding tickets don't speed...ya it is that simple obey the law and everything will be just fine.

[Army Guy]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:27 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I would love a service where I could call and get someone to come right away if someone was breaking into my house.  As it is, I pay hundreds in property tax that goes to a service that doesn't come when I need it.  

Have you ever called 911 for a break and enter and they did not come ? Do you know of anyone who call 911 for a break and enter and they did not come? Maybe you need to pay more property taxes to get on the list...you know the list right ? 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Army Guy

[Rue]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

 

A huge amount of Canada's crime, especially it's violent crime, comes from immigrants.  I think you have gone off the deep end. 

Provide the statistics. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Rue

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

How can you argue so passionately about racism when it's clear you don't even know what racism is? It's not racist to simply mention the elementary logic that police are going to have violent conflict the most with criminals.

This is the race/crime stats from New York, a city controlled by a very liberal administration for quite some time. I like it because it has very neat tables on suspects and victims of crimes by race.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2019-enforcement-report.pdf

I'll save you the bother of scrolling through it. Here they are.

Percentage of crimes with black suspects.
Misdemeanor criminal mischief     51%
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter 62.4%
Rape  46.5%
Other felony sex crimes 41.6%
Robbery  66.2%
Felonious assault 53.4%
Grand larceny 60.5%
Misdemeanor sex crimes 42.4%
Misdemeanor assault  52.1%
Petit larceny 53.8%
Misdemeanor criminal mischief 51%
Shootings 74.4%
Firearms arrests 70.9%
Drugs 45%
Property crime (stolen property) 54.7%
Misdemeanor juvenile suspects  64.1%

Do you have a clue what the word suspect means? 

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Provide the statistics. 

You're aware, of course, that the left has forbidden the police to keep race statistics for decades except for indigenous people.

Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year.

The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose.

Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.

https://outline.com/TBqeWz

You could also have a look at the cites I posted for most wanted by the RCMP and Toronto police to get an indication of the truth of what I'm saying.

 

[Rue]

7 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

I deny racism with facts. If reality offends you that's not my problem.

 

You deny racism with subjective opinions not facts. You have yet to provide a fact. Also you offend no one. To offend someone they would have to care. Don't delude yourself into thinking  that anyone but you cares about your opinions. 

You have an agenda to deny racism exists and try criminalize blacks to justify your denial.  Furthermore, even if what you said about blacks was true it would not justify racism or abuse of power.

Next, this thread is not about you and your negative stereotyping of blacks. Your need to make it about you again displays your narcissism. Go start a thread about yourself.

This thread is about policing not you.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Rue

[Argus]

14 minutes ago, Rue said:

Do you have a clue what the word suspect means? 

Yes, that's based on the description of the victims or from cameras. Do you have any idea what arrestee means? Because that's in the next column over, and is not much different from the column for suspects. But hey, if my posting the list for blacks bothers you I can redo it for whites. Perhaps this offers some evidence of why police spend a disproportionate amount of time in conflict with blacks (mainly black men). And no, the does not justify police brutality. But misbehaviour happens in every profession. This just happens to be the one with guns. Misbehaviour - police brutality - should not be tolerated. Racism should not be tolerated. But presuming that racism is the cause of misbehaviour, sans evidence is wrong, and using that to then label an entire society as racist and demand whites, who suffer from some kind of original sin, grovel and beg forgiveness, is insulting and racist in itself.

Percentage of crimes with white suspects.
Misdemeanor criminal mischief     14.8%
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter 3%
Rape  10.8%
Other felony sex crimes 12.9%
Robbery  4.3%
Felonious assault 7.9%
Grand larceny 11.7%
Misdemeanor sex crimes 14%
Misdemeanor assault  9.9%
Petit larceny 15.7%
Misdemeanor criminal mischief 14.8%
Shootings 2.4%
Firearms arrests 4.3%
Drugs 9.7%
Property crime (stolen property) 11.5%
Misdemeanor juvenile suspects  5.4%

Edited June 11, 2020 by Argus

[Rue]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

You're aware, of course, that the left has forbidden the police to keep race statistics for decades except for indigenous people.

Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year.

The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose.

Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.

https://outline.com/TBqeWz

You could also have a look at the cites I posted for most wanted by the RCMP and Toronto police to get an indication of the truth of what I'm saying.

 

Argus nothing in what you provided backs up your claim as you are well aware.  Get a hold of yourself man.  You are just far too intelligent to respond like that blaming  leftists or referring to things that do not back your point. In fact there are stats kept  on violent criminal immigrants because they lose their pr status when happens. Those stats show nothing of the sort. 

 

[Argus]

Just now, Rue said:

Argus nothing in what you provided backs up your claim as you are well aware.  Get a hold of yourself man.  You are just far too intelligent to respond like that blaming  leftists or referring to things that do not back your point. In fact there are stats kept  on violent criminal immigrants because they lose their pr status when happens. Those stats show nothing of the sort.

As I pointed out, we have no official stats because they were afraid such stats would incite racism (which in itself is suggestive). So we only have things like the wanted lists for RCMP and Toronto and Ottawa, and the daily parade of news stories, as well as when people like Fantino release statistics, or reporters like Linda Frum accidentally mention things they're not supposed to mention in Macleans.

Well, thank you. Tell me, the gang violence that you are experiencing, what is the racial or ethnic background of the gangs?

That’s a refreshingly blunt question. Some say it may be as high as 80 per cent Jamaican. But no one knows for sure, because people here don’t like to talk about that.

https://archive.macleans.ca/article/2006/1/16/the-issue-in

The stats you speak of, btw, are only kept until they get their citizenship. In the United States, however, they do keep detailed statistics, and I'm not aware that any black leader or any democrat has challenged the truth of the statistics with regard to the disproportionate involvement of Blacks in crime (esp violent crime).

And as the study I posted points out The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.

[Boges]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

Nobody gives a shit about police brutality unless it involves a white cop and a black victim. And nobody is talking about police brutality either, except as it relates to minorities. No one.
George Floyd was a lifelong criminal who went bananas when placed in the back of a police car because of the meth and fentanyl he was on. He was dragged out to await an ambulance and pinned to the ground. Was he pinned too long? Sure. But I'm willing to bet that cop had held down similar addicts for years without causing harm. This one, unfortunately, had too much drugs and a bad heart. I find it hard to cry for someone who puts that shit in their body.

Yes, liberal self-loathing and guilt is at a peak. And lots of them are willing to get outraged without bothering to inquire into the details of what they're outraged about.

You did see the media attention a 75-year-old white man who was shoved to the ground by cops got right?

The outrage to all these protests speak to a level of racism that I never really could have imagined. 

They're not taking any of your rights away, they want more accountability for police (in their interactions with whites too). And it's working. We're seeing videos that were previously hidden showing police over-reacting to black suspects released to the public now. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Boges

[Boges]

16 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

First of all nobody cares about the daytime protests. although there's a lot Democrat hypocrisy there if you factor in the lack of social distancing. But it's more the night time riots, of violence, vandalism and looting rational people object most to.

Irrelevant to what? Statistics are very relevant to disproving the idea there is "institutionalized racism." Not only can one notice that there is no actual proof of institutional racism but one can see the real mechanics of what is offered up as support for the fallacy. Blacks are not violently persecuted in a way that other races are not. Such cases of excessive police violence against black are random, rare, not distinguishable by race and any claim of disproportionate persecution by race is neutered by the fact blacks are more likely to be involved in a violent confrontation with police. They are committing more violent crime even when you factor in their smaller demographic.

But if you want to emotionalize individual events - White Daniel Shaver was on his knees with his hands up begging police not to shoot when they shot him. Justine Diamond was a white lady in her pyjamas. Tony Timpa was a white guy gasping for air, telling police he couldn't breath.

According to the Washington Post there were 19 cases like that of police killing whites last year. There were only 9 cases of police killing blacks.

So knowing that and the fact that over 50% of violent murders are committed by the black 13% of the population let's reconsider the hyper-emotionalized case of Breona Taylor. Taylor was in what the police considered "a drug-house." She was with her boyfriend. The police had a warrant. There are conflicting statements as to whether they announced their presence. Taylor's boyfriend shot first. He was licensed to carry. Taylor was caught in the following spray of gunfire.

Tragic, but how does it show institutional racism? If she's black then possible excessive force is racism, but if you're white like Tony Timpa (who also couldn't breath), Daniel Shaver (shot on his knees with his hands up) or Justine Diamond (shot by a police officer of a different race in her pyjamas)  it doesn't. Is that your point?

I'm outraged that the police kill anyone where it doesn't involve an armed suspect attacking them. No matter what the race. 

BTW protests have been largely peaceful for over a week now, So I'm not sure why you're upset. 

The Breonna Taylor case involved a no knock warrant. Her boyfriend had no reason to believe the people breaking into their home were cops, because they didn't have to identify. Oh and the suspect they were looking for was also in custody. So I hope you agree that No-Knock warrants should be banned.