Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The Revolutionary War was a violent and successful rejection of the British imperialists. Even weakened by pandemic, the U.S. remains far more dominant than the UK. This is why Canada shifted economic dependencies south to the bastard Americans long ago. All is not lost....it will just be different. An over reliance for U.S. leadership (and power) has led to this very circumstance when America pivots in a different direction. Europe, with 500 million people, can't even adequately defend itself militarily. Canada is left to scramble for a new champion of rules based order that it cannot enforce. Begging Trump to do so (a la Chrystia Freeland) is an impotent strategy. How can bearing the largest burden in blood and treasure continue to benefit America ? Why can't America just become a more populated Canada or Germany ? You want it to be the U.S. because that is the easiest path for you, but Americans will decide what their future will be, not "allies" who worship at the globalist alter. America has already confronted China on trade....Canada has largely not. Being an ally of the U.S. does not mean freedom from competition or military impotency to the point of pride. "Allies" has become an often invoked excuse for Canada and other nations. China is not an "ally", but it sure as hell knows how to compete. If you trust such order, then pay for it. Trust starts at home, not in the United States. Canada has its own mix of challenges and successes. Trust is certainly important, but how much is the US government doing to protect her own citizens? Can Americans trust their government? The military alliance and free trade deals sound great in principle. Canada has served to support US missions as much as the US has stood up for Canada, a country that you and others have said only gets protection to keep US enemies far from US territory. The self-interest narrative is uninspiring. Either we’re allies standing up for each other and helping each other in times of need or we’re not. Competition is fine when the playing field is level. We could debate how level it is, but that’s another conversation. We’re not discussing healthy competition. A challenge for the US right now is showing that government cares about her own people and people in general. A country is mostly an organizing principle. It’s values that count. Language and culture are related to those values but secondary to them. If actions speak louder than words, then let’s look at action in Canada-US relations. Trump tried to prevent 3M masks from coming into Canada, masks that use material from Canada, an arrangement that has worked for both countries. The lesson Canadians have learned about the US is that the US isn’t as stable or reliable as we thought. This has been the overarching theme since Trump took office. I also think many Americans question the stability and reliability of their federal government. Canadians have trust issues with their federal government too, but the issues are different. Canada must become more self-reliant and the Liberals haven’t grasped the importance of that. Also, it’s not bastard Americans. It’s American friends. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Canada has its own mix of challenges and successes. Trust is certainly important, but how much is the US government doing to protect her own citizens? Can Americans trust their government? Americans do not have the same reverence and deference to government that Canadians do, the very essence of our differences. Americans tolerate government as a necessary evil. The price for total protection is too high compared to liberty. Quote The military alliance and free trade deals sound great in principle. Canada has served to support US missions as much as the US has stood up for Canada, a country that you and others have said only gets protection to keep US enemies far from US territory. The self-interest narrative is uninspiring. Either we’re allies standing up for each other and helping each other in times of need or we’re not. Competition is fine when the playing field is level. We could debate how level it is, but that’s another conversation. We’re not discussing healthy competition. But it is still competition, healthy or not, and Canada should not be spared from the fight just because it is a clinging "ally". Canada's best interests may be served by alliances and world order, but clearly it is not prepared to enforce same. Quote A challenge for the US right now is showing that government cares about her own people and people in general. A country is mostly an organizing principle. It’s values that count. Language and culture are related to those values but secondary to them. If actions speak louder than words, then let’s look at action in Canada-US relations. Trump tried to prevent 3M masks from coming into Canada, masks that use material from Canada, an arrangement that has worked for both countries. The lesson Canadians have learned about the US is that the US isn’t as stable or reliable as we thought. This has been the overarching theme since Trump took office. I also think many Americans question the stability and reliability of their federal government. Canadians have trust issues with their federal government too, but the issues are different. Canada must become more self-reliant and the Liberals haven’t grasped the importance of that. See above....Americans are not Canadians. Why do you insist upon such an expectation ? And it is not just Trump....previous American presidents have also smacked Canada upside the head (Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.). Trump invoked the DPA to protect American health care workers....he is under no obligation to do Trudeau's job for him as well. If you are so convinced about America's instability, then why do you continue to have such expectations and demands ? What you are also indirectly admitting is that America's previous long history of domestic and international "instability" was perfectly acceptable before Trump. I agree that Canada and many Canadians have long been delusional about the nature of the CanAm relationship and the long "unprotected" border. That is on Canada, not the United States. Seek true love elsewhere. Edited April 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Americans do not have the same reverence and deference to government that Canadians do, the very essence of our differences. Americans tolerate government as a necessary evil. The price for total protection is too high compared to liberty. But it is still competition, healthy or not, and Canada should not be spared from the fight just because it is a clinging "ally". Canada's best interests may be served by alliances and world order, but clearly it is not prepared to enforce same. See above....Americans are not Canadians. Why do you insist upon such an expectation ? And it is not just Trump....previous American presidents have also smacked Canada upside the head (Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.). Trump invoked the DPA to protect American health care workers....he is under no obligation to do Trudeau's job for him as well. If you are so convinced about America's instability, then why do you continue to have such expectations and demands ? What you are also indirectly admitting is that America's previous long history of domestic and international "instability" was perfectly acceptable before Trump. I agree that Canada and many Canadians have long been delusional about the nature of the CanAm relationship and the long "unprotected" border. That is on Canada, not the United States. Seek true love elsewhere. Don’t ever doubt the strength of Canadians. Ever. We were there from the start of both world wars. We didn’t wait to be attacked to fight for our allies. Canada has proven one of the most effective countries for its size. That’s as true now in the pandemic as ever. And we will continue to support our allies and even China with supplies to fight the virus because that’s who we are. It’s about honour and decency. Those are values to rally around, not “America First”, which sounds like something out of late 30’s Germany. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Don’t ever doubt the strength of Canadians. Ever. We were there from the start of both world wars. We didn’t wait to be attacked to fight for our allies. Canada has proven one of the most effective countries for its size. That’s as true now in the pandemic as ever. And we will continue to support our allies and even China with supplies to fight the virus because that’s who we are. It’s about honour and decency. Those are values to rally around, not “America First”, which sounds like something out of late 30’s Germany. Then stop whining about Trump and American isolationism if you are so strong and powerful. Stop begging America to protect your "rules based order". Not waiting to be attacked is an act of aggression....war for your previous imperialist master. That is not rules based either. You can't have it both ways. Why is it so important for you to amplify expectations for America ? This thread is about China, but yet again it has been twisted to your demands of America. What are your demands for China, the actual topic ? P.S. The U.S. sent more medical supplies to China than did Canada. Edited April 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Then stop whining about Trump and American isolationism if you are so strong and powerful. Stop begging America to protect your "rules based order". Not waiting to be attacked is an act of aggression....war for your previous imperialist master. That is not rules based either. You can't have it both ways. Why is it so important for you to amplify expectations for America ? This thread is about China, but yet again it has been twisted to your demands of America. What are your demands for China, the actual topic ? I told you my expectations for China. It’s about requiring participation in a rules-based order for trade. Is the reason America won’t sign on to such a deal Because America doesn’t want to play by rules? Remember the Paris Accord? I’m free to criticize American policy as you are free to criticize Canadian policy. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 Just now, Zeitgeist said: I told you my expectations for China. It’s about requiring participation in a rules-based order for trade. Is the reason America won’t sign on to such a deal Because America doesn’t want to play by rules? Remember the Paris Accord? You cannot force China or America to bend to your will just because it would benefit Canada or "allies". The Paris Agreement was not a treaty by design, with provisions for leaving, so America left. The elected U.S. Congress had no constitutional say in the matter. Canada failed and left Kyoto as well. Quote I’m free to criticize American policy as you are free to criticize Canadian policy. America has already done more to confront China on trade than your own nation, so your criticism rings hollow. Canada owes me nothing...just as America owes you nothing. Plan accordingly. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: You cannot force China or America to bend to your will just because it would benefit Canada or "allies". The Paris Agreement was not a treaty by design, with provisions for leaving, so America left. The elected U.S. Congress had no constitutional say in the matter. Canada failed and left Kyoto as well. America has already done more to confront China on trade than your own nation, so your criticism rings hollow. Canada owes me nothing...just as America owes you nothing. Plan accordingly. No. America decided long ago to get deeply involved in world affairs. In for a penny, in for a pound. You can’t shirk responsibility without consequences. Covid-19 is one of the consequences. We’ve screwed up too, but I do think things could have been different with more careful policies early on. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 51 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: No. America decided long ago to get deeply involved in world affairs. In for a penny, in for a pound. You can’t shirk responsibility without consequences. Covid-19 is one of the consequences. We’ve screwed up too, but I do think things could have been different with more careful policies early on. America decided to get deeply involved for America's interests and terms, not Canada's or yours. You don't get to decide what America's responsibilities are....and I make no demands of Canada. China is not going to quit over COVID19. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: America decided to get deeply involved for America's interests and terms, not Canada's or yours. You don't get to decide what America's responsibilities are....and I make no demands of Canada. China is not going to quit over COVID19. We’re not in silos. Sometimes I wish we were, but the reality is that global open markets raised living standards for all, but there are negative consequences for unfettered capitalism and open markets. We need better controls and safeguards. The main reason we don’t have them is because the major powers refuse to behave responsibly. Canada has tried to be a Boy Scout with carbon taxes, but it’s pissing in the wind without the US playing ball. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: We’re not in silos. Sometimes I wish we were, but the reality is that global open markets raised living standards for all, but there are negative consequences for unfettered capitalism and open markets. We need better controls and safeguards. The main reason we don’t have them is because the major powers refuse to behave responsibly. Canada has tried to be a Boy Scout with carbon taxes, but it’s pissing in the wind without the US playing ball. Then Canada will just have to keep "pissing" in the wind. If international institutions cannot stand without American backing, then they are too weak to begin with. I understand that Canada has no other cards to play, but that is true for most nations on this planet. The U.S. has already chosen its approach to China and Canada will have to figure out its own as well. America is broke...even more so now...so the post WW2 "grand deal" cannot continue. Other nations were pulling back to their own borders and interests long before Trump. Even Canada has done the same (UN missions, military, Kyoto, etc.) . Charity and responsibility begins at home. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Then Canada will just have to keep "pissing" in the wind. If international institutions cannot stand without American backing, then they are too weak to begin with. I understand that Canada has no other cards to play, but that is true for most nations on this planet. The U.S. has already chosen its approach to China and Canada will have to figure out its own as well. America is broke...even more so now...so the post WW2 "grand deal" cannot continue. Other nations were pulling back to their own borders and interests long before Trump. Even Canada has done the same (UN missions, military, Kyoto, etc.) . Charity and responsibility begins at home. Leadership requires sacrifice for the greater good. The resounding message from the Trump presidency has been, we’re gonna do whatever the fuck we want to serve our base’s short-term interests today. Well how does that attitude serve America now? Canada has to get her own priorities straight. Both countries need to take a much firmer stance with China. Don’t pretend that Canada’s actions will have the same impact as a country with ten times the economy. Canada will do what it can and should do more. So should the US. Well, what’s happening right now is a direct result of actions not taken, so you be the judge. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Leadership requires sacrifice for the greater good. The resounding message from the Trump presidency has been, we’re gonna do whatever the fuck we want to serve our base’s short-term interests today. Well how does that attitude serve America now? Serves America fine in a world landscape that is changing quickly. China will not be denied its economic and military place in the world. The U.S. was pulling back even under Obama, but Canada wasn't bitching so much about a lack of leadership. U.S. presidents can pivot any way they can get away with and it is foolish for Canada or any other nation to expect 100% continuity from all administrations. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do, within Congressional and court constraints. Quote Canada has to get her own priorities straight. Both countries need to take a much firmer stance with China. Don’t pretend that Canada’s actions will have the same impact as a country with ten times the economy. Canada will do what it can and should do more. So should the US. Well, what’s happening right now is a direct result of actions not taken, so you be the judge. American interests are more important to me than Canada's aspirations, China or no China. Fix the obvious inconsistencies and failures in/from Canada before making demands of other nations. Canada has done less...not more. Edited April 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 20 hours ago, Right To Left said: Trump and a bipartisan pack of American liberals and conservatives are all agreed on using the growing pandemic at home as a launching point for a propaganda war against China that may soon turn into a real war....depending on the support within military leadership, health of sailors and soldiers and ability to pay for a big war...the clock may be ticking on that one, and that's why Trump wants to open everything up in May. He needs money to support his military goals. Why can't they just conjure it up out of thin air like before and everyone else? Figures the last ones to turn out the lights will be the bankers and coupon-clippers who saved for a rainy day. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: No it was a stalemate The War of 1812 blah blah blah 12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The Revolutionary War was a violent and successful blah blah blah The debt aliens in space must be LTAO at the spectacle of so many people trying to pass this crisis with their eyes fixated on the review mirror. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Serves America fine in a world landscape that is changing quickly. China will not be denied its economic and military place in the world. The U.S. was pulling back even under Obama, but Canada wasn't bitching so much about a lack of leadership. U.S. presidents can pivot any way they can get away with and it is foolish for Canada or any other nation to expect 100% continuity from all administrations. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do, within Congressional and court constraints. American interests are more important to me than Canada's aspirations, China or no China. Fix the obvious inconsistencies and failures in/from Canada before making demands of other nations. Canada has done less...not more. Less of what for what? Be specific. It’s arguable that the Canadian government has done more to protect Canadians than the American government has done to protect Americans. On climate change, Canada has tried to stick with the Paris plan. The US certainly has more power and influence, so that country’s government should use that power and influence. Has Trump been better on China? Well look what’s unfolded. Have the right tools been brought to bear on China in a range of issues? I don’t think so. Canada can and should do better, but our influence is more limited. That’s just a fact. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 Just now, Zeitgeist said: Less of what for what? Be specific. It’s arguable that the Canadian government has done more to protect Canadians than the American government has done to protect Americans. On climate change, Canada has tried to stick with the Paris plan. The US certainly has more power and influence, so that country’s government should use that power and influence. Has Trump been better on China? Well look what’s unfolded. Have the right tools been brought to bear in China in a range of issues? I don’t think so. Canada can and should do better, but our influence is more limited. That’s just a fact. I have already been specific (Kyoto Protocol FAIL, fewer UN missions, low military spending, globalism, Paris Agreement (U.S. has greater GHG reduction), etc. If you are contending that Canada has less responsibility for its own actions because it is "small" and less powerful, then you have already lost the debate. America is not the sledgehammer to compensate for Canada's relative impotence. Trump has been very aggressive with China on trade, much more so than your current government. Walk the talk before making demands of other nations....why is your focus so much on America anyway ? There are other large economies and players in the world.....why do you single out the Americans ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I have already been specific (Kyoto Protocol FAIL, fewer UN missions, low military spending, globalism, Paris Agreement (U.S. has greater GHG reduction), etc. If you are contending that Canada has less responsibility for its own actions because it is "small" and less powerful, then you have already lost the debate. America is not the sledgehammer to compensate for Canada's relative impotence. Trump has been very aggressive with China on trade, much more so than your current government. Walk the talk before making demands of other nations....why is your focus so much on America anyway ? There are other large economies and players in the world.....why do you single out the Americans ? You felt free to weigh in on what Canada should do or hasn’t done, so I reciprocated. Canada is used to working with other countries on multi-lateral initiatives. Canada is walking the walk no less than the Yanks. What’s that saying about people who live in glass houses throwing stones? The problem with any Canada-US discussions and even discussions among our own citizens is that value means different things to different people based on their beliefs. What you might call success others might call failure. Also, each of our countries has successes in different areas, but our systems, histories, and/or prevailing social attitudes make it difficult to simply borrow and apply the successes of other countries to our own. That’s where comparisons break down. The US is a much bigger, more individualistic country with a two-party system. China is a much bigger country ruled with an iron fist. You have to take context into account when looking at the viability of policy. It’s arguable that Canada was making good progress in its relationship with China until the Huawei disruption occurred, which raised questions not just about how much we could trust China in its treatment of Canadians in China, but how much we could trust the US to behave fairly. It turned out that the US extradition move was quite politicized, as is China’s detention of Canadians. Canada needs to be more wary of both countries than we have been. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 Just now, Zeitgeist said: You felt free to weigh in on what Canada should do or hasn’t done, so I reciprocated. Canada is used to working with other countries on multi-lateral initiatives. Canada is walking the walk no less than the Yanks. What’s that saying about people who live in glass houses throwing stones? Bitching about Trump and China is not being very specific. This Yank is not asking or demanding anything of Canada, but you insist that America must "lead". Why ? Quote The problem with any Canada-US discussions and even discussions among our own citizens is that value means different things to different people based on their beliefs. What you might call success others might call failure. Also, each of our countries has successes in different areas, but our systems, histories, and/or prevailing social attitudes make it difficult to simply borrow and apply the successes of other countries to our own. That’s where comparisons break down. The US is a much bigger, more individualistic country with a two-party system. China is a much bigger country ruled with an iron fist. You have to take context into account when looking at the viability of policy. It's not a problem...it is reality. We have already been over this many many times, regardless of China. Your desire for more multi-lateralism does not automatically obligate the U.S. or any other nation to comply. Your own foreign minister admitted to this in her speech that begged Trump to protect the "post WW2 order". It is America's choice...not Canada's. Do you not accept that ? So I respectfully ask again...why is your focus so much on the United States ? China (and the U.S.) are much more diversified for export trade than is Canada, with less dependency on exports as a percentage of GDP. Is that the root of your Yankee focus ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Right To Left Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 42 minutes ago, eyeball said: Why can't they just conjure it up out of thin air like before and everyone else? Figures the last ones to turn out the lights will be the bankers and coupon-clippers who saved for a rainy day. Well, that is what every war has been since the second half of the 20th century....."just add it on to my final bill." The last big war that was paid for.....eventually....was WWII; but look how long that took! Canada was still paying off its war bonds and debts until the end of the 60's. And that couldn't have even happened if it wasn't for the exceptional economic growth after the War ended. The problem now is that the notion that bills never need to be paid has led most governments to borrow more and more from the future, while as the years go by, economic growth slows down and is unable to pay off past debts. The US strategy through Dem and Repub administrations since Reagan, has just been to keep adding it on to the bar tab. Now, after at least 6 trillion for Covid-19 (most of the that going to the billionaires), who's going to keep investing in America Inc. with more trillions created to pay for another new war? Certainly, being 'world reserve currency' adds a not-so subtle implication of blackmail to force the rest of the world to keep supporting the USD; but that can't last forever either! Quote
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) We’ve talked about the reality of our geography, which makes the US our natural biggest trading partner. We’re each others’ biggest export markets, but Canada, as a more export driven economy is more susceptible to US policy than the US is impacted by Canada. Both countries, however, have relied heavily on Chinese imports, and now we’re facing the consequences of one of those unsolicited imports, C-19. I don’t think the US has been more effective in its public safety response, and that probably relates to the very different realities of the US. Canada has to become more independent and diversify trade, but let’s face it, it’s costly and unnatural to do this. It’s hard to shut down the flow of cheap imports and the variety that comes through the global economy. These are our challenges. They aren’t the same in Canada as in the US, though there are similarities. We will set our policies as best we can, though I disagree with some of our own policies. Our influence is limited. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: We’ve talked about the reality of our geography, which makes the US our natural biggest trading partner. We’re each others’ biggest export markets, but Canada, as a more export driven economy is more susceptible to US policy than the US is impacted by Canada. Both countries, however, have relied heavily on Chinese imports, and now we’re facing the consequences of one of those unsolicited imports, C-19. I don’t think the US has been more effective in its public safety response, and that probably relates to the very different realities of the US. This thread is about Canada's policy for China irrespective of COVID19....it was an issue long before that. I specifically don't understand why you have so much focus on America when China has diversified export trade with many other nations, not just the USA. Why not the EU nations, or Japan, or Brazil, or Mexico, or India ? China is/was America's largest trading partner by dollar valuation because the price of oil has cratered, and it is not going away. Quote Canada has to become more independent and diversify trade, but let’s face it, it’s costly and unnatural to do this. It’s hard to shut down the flow of cheap imports and the variety that comes through the global economy. These are our challenges. They aren’t the same in Canada as in the US, though there are similarities. We will set our policies as best we can, though I disagree with some of our own policies. Our influence is limited. OK...then live with such limitations and adjust expectations accordingly. The U.S. will do the same....on a different scale and in different domains. Edited April 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: This thread is about Canada's policy for China irrespective of COVID19....it was an issue long before that. I specifically don't understand why you have so much focus on America when China has diversified export trade with many other nations, not just the USA. Why not the EU nations, or Japan, or Brazil, or Mexico, or India ? China is/was America's largest trading partner by dollar valuation because the price of oil has cratered, and it is not going away. OK...then live with such limitations and adjust expectations accordingly. The U.S. will do the same....on a different scale and in different domains. True, but I think that the spread of C-19 and the difficulty we’re having in responding to it relate very strongly to the massive trade imbalance with China and the lack of rules that China should be following in order for there to be a free exchange of goods, services, and people. We didn’t have the PPE to respond to the crisis because most of it is manufactured in China. We didn’t have the checks in place at airports or borders because we underestimated the impacts of new viruses spawned by biohazardous wet markets. Most of the other problems with our response to the virus relate to our health systems and public safety measures, but our international and trade rules play important roles. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: True, but I think that the spread of C-19 and the difficulty we’re having in responding to it relate very strongly to the massive trade imbalance with China and the lack of rules that China should be following in order for there to be a free exchange of Goods, services, and people. Trade rules and imbalances were front and center long before COVID19, which is now just another talking point to add to the agenda. All nations will experience some GDP contraction and consolidation. Economics will be more important than specific COVID19 grandstanding. Quote We didn’t have the PPE to respond to the crisis because most of it is manufactured in China. We didn’t have the checks in place at airports or borders because we underestimated the impacts of new viruses spawned by biohazardous wet markets. You still wouldn't have had enough stockpiled PPE even if it was all manufactured in Canada. The free flow of goods and people was deemed more important than health screening at airports or borders. Quote Most of the other problems with our response to the virus relate to our health systems and public safety measures, but our international and trade rules play important roles. Different topic specific to COVID19 instead of general Canada/China trade. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Trade rules and imbalances were front and center long before COVID19, which is now just another talking point to add to the agenda. All nations will experience some GDP contraction and consolidation. Economics will be more important than specific COVID19 grandstanding. You still wouldn't have had enough stockpiled PPE even if it was all manufactured in Canada. The free flow of goods and people was deemed more important than health screening at airports or borders. Different topic specific to COVID19 instead of general Canada/China trade. The pandemic has supercharged changes that were probably inevitable. You’re getting a Green New Deal. It’s built into the crisis response: Universal Basic Income, essential travel only, and when workplace culture returns, it will likely be with smaller groups and more local, green sources of food, energy, and even defence. Some of that is highly desirable and good, but some of it will feel like a constraint on the freedoms and standard of living to which we’re accustomed. The challenge will be deciding how much of this has to stay to fight pandemics and other problems resulting from our crowded, stressed planet. How much of a price are we willing to pay for health and security? This is a major realignment of the economy. I don’t like it but the pandemic has shown that events will take place that force us to respond and build resilience. Our relationships with China must also change. Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 12, 2020 Report Posted April 12, 2020 46 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: ... This is a major realignment of the economy. I don’t like it but the pandemic has shown that events will take place that force us to respond and build resilience. Our relationships with China must also change. There have been major realignments in the past for many different crises, but the basics did not change. China is not going to go away or be undermined by changing relationships. Some would argue that China will be in a better position post COVID19 than many other nations, and it already was far more "resilient". Frankly, China is not responsible for the state of western nations' pandemic preparedness. That is the main lesson to be learned. 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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