French Patriot Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil? Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws. To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers. Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would. Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil. Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good. If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death. Thoughts? Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 If God didn't 'kill' as a 'cause to die' or 'allow someone to kill' then He wouldn't be a God at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 59 minutes ago, Marocc said: If God didn't 'kill' as a 'cause to die' or 'allow someone to kill' then He wouldn't be a God at all. God is only God because he kills and allows others to kill? Is that what you're saying here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Goddess said: God is only God because he kills and allows others to kill? Is that what you're saying here? No. As usual your reading comprehension skills are found to be lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, Marocc said: No. As usual your reading comprehension skills are found to be lacking. 38 minutes ago, Goddess said: If God didn't 'kill' as a 'cause to die' or 'allow someone to kill' then He wouldn't be a God at all. Then what are you saying? It seems to say exactly: If God didn't kill or allow someone to kill, he wouldn't be a God at all. How is that not saying real Gods kill and allow others to kill for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 46 minutes ago, Goddess said: God is only God because he kills and allows others to kill? Is that what you're saying here? The issue is with your statement here. ^ That doesn't fit with what I said nor with what you now say here: 6 minutes ago, Goddess said: Then what are you saying? It seems to say exactly: If God didn't kill or allow someone to kill, he wouldn't be a God at all. How is that not saying real Gods kill and allow others to kill for them? To put it real simply, saying that if God wasn't the one casing people to die He wouldn't be a God, is on no way the same as saying (as you said) that God is 'only' God 'because he kills and allows others to kill'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Marocc said: The issue is with your statement here. ^ That doesn't fit with what I said nor with what you now say here: To put it real simply, saying that if God wasn't the one casing people to die He wouldn't be a God, is on no way the same as saying (as you said) that God is 'only' God 'because he kills and allows others to kill'. You still seem to be saying that God is God because he kills and allows others to kill for him. So hard to get a straight answer from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/8/2019 at 4:54 PM, French Patriot said: To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers. Uh, no he didn't. He told his followers that God would kill, so they didn't have to. Essentially he told them to leave the killing to God (Romans 12.9). God promises non-believers that they'll suffer eternal hellfire unless they convert. Which would be worse than death, imo, if meant literally. Edited July 15, 2019 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 10 minutes ago, Goddess said: You still seem to be saying that God is God because he kills and allows others to kill for him. I read it as part of what makes him God is the power of righteously determing who shall live and who shall die. Without that, he cannot be God regardless of any other attributes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, Goddess said: You still seem to be saying that God is God because he kills and allows others to kill for him. So hard to get a straight answer from you. It's your thinking that's twisted. Makes it impossible for you to understand anything that isn't. 7 minutes ago, dialamah said: I read it as part of what makes him God is the power of righteously determing who shall live and who shall die. Without that, he cannot be God regardless of any other attributes. Pretty much, though I would rather say the fact that He is God makes Him capable of that than that it is what makes Him God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Uh, no he didn't. He told his followers that God would kill, so they didn't have to. Essentially he told them to leave the killing to God (Romans 12.9). God promises non-believers that they'll suffer eternal hellfire unless they convert. Which would be worse than death, imo, if meant literally. Jesus said he came to serve those who needed saving, not for those who did not when his disciple chastise him for hanging out with drinkers and prostitutes etc. I agree that he also would have taught to leave the killing to god. It would have been nice if his church had that ideology as then they would not have murdered so many with their inquisitions. I agree that the hell thing adds purposeless torture before the second and final death of the souls. That is why I think Yahweh to be quite the vile prick whom no one should idol worship. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 55 minutes ago, dialamah said: I read it as part of what makes him God is the power of righteously determing who shall live and who shall die. Without that, he cannot be God regardless of any other attributes. You are correct, but do you think Yahweh to be a moral enough entity to judge righteously? Gnostic Christianity has tied righteousness to equality and that is why we are a universalist religion with a heaven but no hell. We all contribute to what we all are and do and thus should all have the same hell or heaven, punishment or reward after death. I E. Hitler was not born to be what he ended up being. All who reared him or facilitated his rise are just as guilty, collectively, as Hitler was. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, French Patriot said: I agree that the hell thing adds purposeless torture before the second and final death of the souls. Is there such a thing in Christianity as a 'second death', death of the soul? Purposeless life must lead to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marocc Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, French Patriot said: We all contribute to what we all are and do and thus should all have the same hell or heaven, punishment or reward after death We all contribute but we don't contribute the same. Some contributions are more negative others more positive. And there might somewhere be a man in seclusion from the rest of the population, what would happen to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, French Patriot said: You are correct, but do you think Yahweh to be a moral enough entity to judge righteously? I don't believe there is a Yahweh or an Allah. Inasmuch that Gods seem to have the same motivations and behavior as humans, I can only definitely say sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Marocc said: Is there such a thing in Christianity as a 'second death', death of the soul? Yes. Look up the lake of fire where hell and it's souls are supposed to be dumped into at the end of days. 1 hour ago, Marocc said: Purposeless life must lead to hell. I would say that such would be hell but we seem to be on the same page regardless of the language. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Marocc said: We all contribute but we don't contribute the same. Some contributions are more negative others more positive. And there might somewhere be a man in seclusion from the rest of the population, what would happen to him? He would likely die. The way Socrates put it was in a question. Who would make his shoes? Have you noticed how modern people who say they are going it alone these days in the wild are there with their rifles, bullets and all weather gear, all made by others. I agree that we all contribute good or evil in various degrees. That does not change the logic and reason of universalism. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted July 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, dialamah said: I don't believe there is a Yahweh or an Allah. Inasmuch that Gods seem to have the same motivations and behavior as humans, I can only definitely say sometimes. I do not think most of us are evil enough to use genocide or infanticide and kill the way Yahweh is shown to have done, but ok. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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