Men need to stand up and apologize for sexual abuse, says Vagina Monologues playwright Eve Ensler

[Machjo]

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-june-10-2019-1.5168766/men-need-to-stand-up-and-apologize-for-sexual-abuse-says-vagina-monologues-playwright-eve-ensler-1.5168774

 

I don't get this idea that men (and only men) should apoligize to women (and only women), and that this will somehow bring down 'the patriarchy.'

My babysitter molested me when I was a child, yet never did I blame women as a collective for her acts. I recognize that she and not womankind was the perpetrator.

This doesn't mean that I didn't approach women with an instinctive caution in adulthood, a caution induced by my past trauma I'm sure. It was natural that I would approach women with more caution after such an experience, but that's not the same as converting my trauma into a political ideology around women generally.

I think we need to avoid making this into a war of the sexes and recognize that this is not a gendered issue. Men abuse men, women, boys, and girls. Women abuse men, women, boys, and girls. To focus exclusively on male abusers and female victims is to politicize a very sensitive issue. Also, given how studies show that many abusers have been abused themselves, to focus only on male abusers and female victims so exclusively is like removing half the tumour to let the other half grow back.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing her sharing her experiences about her father but rather her comments extending it into gender politics.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Machjo

[Machjo]

I think this video nails the double stsndard:

 

[Armchairprophet]

Dear Eve. I do NOT apologize for shit I didn't do. Period. Collective guilt is bullshit and even the leftists acknowledge that fact when they state that muslims are not collective guilty for the actions of islamic terrorists. But apparently I'm [collectively] guilty of sexual abuse purely because of my gender. *Derisive snort*  Sounds a little bigoted and sexist to me.

It astounds me how leftists can scream and cry about the evils of sexism, racism and bigotry while engaging in sexism, racism and bigotry.

[Michael Hardner]

Where are all the moderate men who should be denouncing the extremist man's?

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Where are all the moderate men who should be denouncing the extremist man's?

We're all over the place. Show me one man who'd try to excuse male molesters like the woman in the video above tried to apologize for female molesters. At least the other woman recognized her folly and called her out on it.

I take that back. Some men do apologize for rape, but other men do call them out on it just like the woman in the video called out the other woman on her molestation apology.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Machjo

[Machjo]

I'll just add here that a woman who's pathologically cautious around men is not necessarily sexist. Maybe she just had bad experiences and acts out her trauma in different ways including by being hyper-vigilant around men. That's normal and I can absolutely understand that. I experienced the same around women. However, there is a difference between that natural reaction and converting it into an ideological belief. I'm sure most women who are hypervigilant around men due to past abuse recognize the source of their caution and do not blame all men but rather are just being cautious.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Where are all the moderate men who should be denouncing the extremist man's?

I'm a moderate.  I don't see the need to apologise for something I didn't do, but holy cow, I sure wish those men who do sexually abuse women would stop it, because it's f*****g disgusting and they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[OftenWrong]

We are all moderates.

 

[Hal 9000]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Where are all the moderate men who should be denouncing the extremist man's?

Have you apologized for the wrongdoing of other men?

[Armchairprophet]

12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Where are all the moderate men who should be denouncing the extremist man's?

There's a difference between denouncing something and apologizing for someone else's actions. Jesus Christ, I'm supposed to apologize for being White. I'm supposed to apologize for being a man. Piss off! Thank god (ironically) that I'm not a bloody christian. There is only ONE person whose actions I'm accountable for and that is me. Like I said, funny how the collective guilt game is "bigoted" when applied to muslims but apparently I'm supposed to share guilt with rapists solely because of an accident of birth.

[Michael Hardner]

This thread is a good example of how people look at other groups vs. their own, I think.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

This thread is a good example of how people look at other groups vs. their own, I think.

How people look at groups is based on their inherent biases.  The trick is to ignore those and acknowledge the individual.  Someone can be a barbaric and disgusting troglodyte, regardless of their grouping, and one shouldn't be afraid of saying so.  Or condemning their behaviour, if one is so inclined, but there should be no responsibility to do so just because one is of the same group. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by bcsapper

[Michael Hardner]

42 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1. How people look at groups is based on their inherent biases.  The trick is to ignore those and acknowledge the individual. 

2. Someone can be a barbaric and disgusting troglodyte, regardless of their grouping, and one shouldn't be afraid of saying so.  Or condemning their behaviour, if one is so inclined, but there should be no responsibility to do so just because one is of the same group. 

1.  What you are talking about is: declare a principle, which is by definition objective, that people may/should follow with regards to groups.
2. This basic idea was unlearned recently.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  What you are talking about is: declare a principle, which is by definition objective, that people may/should follow with regards to groups.
2. This basic idea was unlearned recently.

1) I thought I was talking about suppressing the innate desire to categorise folk as groups, and I'm not at all sure if that's what you mean.  But I am tired.

2) Very tired, I guess, because I  don't know what you mean by that.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, bcsapper said:

1) I thought I was talking about suppressing the innate desire to categorise folk as groups, and I'm not at all sure if that's what you mean.  But I am tired.

2) Very tired, I guess, because I  don't know what you mean by that.

1) you are talking about an objective rule or principle.

2) get some rest

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) you are talking about an objective rule or principle.

2) get some rest

I'm rested now.  I think the problem was it looked like you were agreeing with me, and lamenting the fact we aren't supposed to do it anymore.   I'm just not used to it.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

1. I think the problem was it looked like you were agreeing with me,

2. and lamenting the fact we aren't supposed to do it anymore.  

3. I'm just not used to it.

1. I don't really agree or disagree that much.  I agree that biases colour your observations of course.  Focusing on the individual is your personal way to get past that.

2. I just feel that nobody even knows how to articulate a principle, or understands the value of objectivity.

3. Get used to it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I don't really agree or disagree that much.  I agree that biases colour your observations of course.  Focusing on the individual is your personal way to get past that.

2. I just feel that nobody even knows how to articulate a principle, or understands the value of objectivity.

3. Get used to it.

It won't be hard.  I like it when people agree with me.  If you don't, then I have nothing to get used to.

Biases colour everyone's observations.  Focusing on the individual is the way to overcome them.

Edited June 14, 2019 by bcsapper