Dougie93 Posted February 8, 2019 Report Posted February 8, 2019 Bacha Baz or Man Love Thursdays as the troops call it, is a pretty well known phenomena in Afghanistan. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) On 2/8/2019 at 2:24 PM, cannuck said: I can tell you from my son-in-law's experiences in Afganistan, no Canadians under his command saw any such thing, and had he any knowledge of same, it would have been dealt with severely and instantly. And you know this how? I know this from reading reports that were widely circulated by the media. How on Earth is it that you're so unaware of them? Quote "It's ridiculous," the officer says. "We have an ethical and moral responsibility to pursue this, not to shut our eyes to it because it would make it more difficult to work with the Afghan government. "We're supposed to be in Afghanistan to help people who are being victimized." https://www.thestar.com/news/2008/06/16/dont_look_dont_tell_troops_told.html How is it that so many soldiers didn't know they were supposed to deal with this sort of abuse and violation of human rights as severely and instantly as your son-in-law? Could you please ask him and get back to us? I've never gotten a straight answer from anyone else whose said they were there. Don't soldiers take an oath to Canada or simple human decency that trumps their orders, death before dishonour or some such thing? So...given what didn't happen in the wake of our alliances abuses, i.e. consequences, why shouldn't I regard our military or our country for that matter as being any better than the company we keep? AFAIC Canada simply doesn't have the moral or ethical background required for telling other people how they should be governed never mind imposing it on them. And that's why we should stay the hell out of Venezuela. Edited February 10, 2019 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Don't soldiers take an oath to Canada or simple human decency that trumps their orders, death before dishonour or some such thing? The oath is to the Commander-in-Chief, the Commander-in-Chief directs that the civilian authority be obeyed, the civilian authority directed that the troops look the other way, because they were not in Afghanistan with a law enforcement mandate, they have no lawful cause to decline the order because it's not a military necessity to, thus it would require the troops to mutiny against the chain of command to intervene, and the troops are indoctrinated not to do that. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) I mean, if we could do what you want us to do, we could do anything, we could stage a coup de tat and start chucking lefties out of helicopters Pinochet style. Which is why we are indoctrinated not to mutiny. My fealty to Elizabeth Windsor trumps my desire to see lefties hang, simple as that. Edited February 10, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: The oath is to the Commander-in-Chief, the Commander-in-Chief directs that the civilian authority be obeyed, the civilian authority directed that the troops look the other way, because they were not in Afghanistan with a law enforcement mandate, they have no lawful cause to decline the order because it's not a military necessity to, thus it would require the troops to mutiny against the chain of command to intervene, and the troops are indoctrinated not to do that. Yeah, that apology still sounds just as lame no matter who pleads it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, eyeball said: Yeah, that apology still sounds just as lame no matter who pleads it. We don't report to you, we report to the Sovereign, Head of State and Commander-in-Chief, Queen Elizabeth II of the House of Windsor. Mission command, commanders intent, is for us to obey the law of Canada rather than to mutiny to enforce Canadian law in Afghanistan. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: We don't report to you, we report to the Sovereign, Head of State and Commander-in-Chief, Queen Elizabeth II of the House of Windsor. Another apology that has nothing to do with morals, ethics or human rights. But I get that these run off your back - so no need to knock yourself out. Edited February 10, 2019 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, eyeball said: Another apology that has nothing to do with morals, ethics or human rights. But I get that these run off your back - so no need to knock yourself out. The morality was to not incite more resistance in Afghanistan by trying to take both sides on at once, resulting in more Canadians coming home down the Highway of Heroes. The ethic was to hold fast to your oath even when it is tempting to mutiny. The human right is that the Afghan civilians engaging in Bacha Baz were not subject to military force under international law and the laws of armed conflict. Edited February 10, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: The morality was to not incite more resistance in Afghanistan by trying to take both sides on at once, resulting in more Canadians coming home down the Highway of Heroes. The ethic was to hold fast to your oath even when it is tempting to mutiny. The human right is that the Afghan civilians engaging in Bacha Baz were not subject to military force under international law and the laws of armed conflict. This sounds like a bunch of crap floundering for lack of a virtue. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, eyeball said: This sounds like a bunch of crap floundering for lack of a virtue. You are of course welcome to your own opinion. You are of course not welcome to your own logic, and logically, your points were addressed. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: You are of course not welcome to your own logic, and logically, your points were addressed. You need to address them morally and ethically and so does Canada if it ever expects to be regarded as being any better than our lowest allies and peers. In a lot of ways we're a lot worse given we know better than to behave like them. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, eyeball said: You need to address them morally and ethically and so does Canada if it ever expects to be regarded as being any better than our lowest allies and peers. In a lot of ways we're a lot worse given we know better than to behave like them. I don't concern myself with how the left regards anything. The left is the lowest of the low, if it weren't for Elizabeth Windsor, we'd hang them from the lampposts. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Quite sure if you took your opinions about Canadian soldiers which you vociferously publish here, down to the bars with the public, an angry mob would form around you with no prompting from conservatives whatsoever. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Quite sure if you took your opinions about Canadian soldiers which you vociferously publish here, down to the bars with the public, an angry mob would form around you with no prompting from conservatives whatsoever. Yeah and I'd be probably be in worse trouble if I took my facts with me. I wonder if cannuck's son-in-law would have my back? Edited February 10, 2019 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, eyeball said: Yeah and I'd be probably be in worse trouble if I took my facts with me. I am not actually offended by your opinion, I am a limited government conservative, libertarian sympathizer. Just saying, how you shoot your mouth off from your moms basement is probably pretty different from how you do in public. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: I am not actually offended by your opinion, I am a limited government conservative, libertarian sympathizer. Just saying, how you shoot your mouth off from your moms basement is probably pretty different from how you do in public. Oh no....not the mom's basement reference again. I hate it when I win that way. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Whatever you want to call it; the protection of the internet instead of saying it to peoples faces. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Again tho, if you said it to my face, no probemo, because again, libertarian sympathizer. Just saying, if you start bashing Canadian troops vociferously to the general public, they tend to throw themselves in front of us and get angry. I don't want them to, but they do it anyways. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Ergo; morality is apparently subjective, as Canadian morality is apparently that the troops should not mutiny to enforce some circularly reasoned imperative of leftist incendiary agitators. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Ergo; morality is apparently subjective, as Canadian morality is apparently that the troops should not mutiny to enforce some circularly reasoned imperative of leftist incendiary agitators. It doesn't sound like you're any more fond of what you're sent to enforce than I am. Is it just me or are claims for PTSD starting to resemble a #metoo movement of victims? The moral dissonance must be pretty tough especially given the circularly reasoned imperatives you do operate according to, I mean it depresses me all to shit as well knowing what my money has been used for. In any case and I repeat, this why we should stay the hell away from Venezuela. Who needs it? Edited February 10, 2019 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, eyeball said: It doesn't sound like you're any more fond of what you're sent to enforce than I am. Is it just me or are claims for PTSD starting to resemble a #metoo movement of victims? The moral dissonance must be pretty tough especially given the circularly reasoned imperatives you do operate according to, I mean it depresses me all to shit as well knowing what my money has been used for. Well certainly as a professional soldier I had to compartmentalize. There is one rule for theater of war under laws of armed conflict, and another for civilian life at home. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 And when soldiers don't, that's how they get PTSD. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: And when soldiers don't, that's how they get PTSD. No they get it because they went to kindergarten. It probably wasn't their fault. It's probably not your fault shit runs off your back the way it does either. Edited February 10, 2019 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, eyeball said: No they get it because they went to kindergarten. It probably wasn't their fault. It's probably not your fault shit runs off your back the way it does either. It's not a question of fault, but yes, they are conditioned against their predatory nature from birth by society, and if/when society doesn't allow them to compartmentalize, then they are traumatized by what they've done and then that leads to the cycle of depression, anxiety and paranoia, otherwise known as PTSD. Quote
eyeball Posted February 10, 2019 Report Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: It's not a question of fault, but yes, they are conditioned against their predatory nature from birth by society, and if/when society doesn't allow them to compartmentalize, then they are traumatized by what they've done and then that leads to the cycle of depression, anxiety and paranoia, otherwise known as PTSD. Yes, I often mention how our kindergartens should resemble Klingon military prep schools. We need a tougher citizenry with the pagan ethos it takes to break bones with a smile on our face. But seriously, the only way to throw a snowflake into battle and expect them to come out of it with half a chance of retaining a clean conscience is to arm them with principles. That's my shtick and I'm shticking with it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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