NHL General Thread

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Marner is the one with the line in the sand, I don't think it makes that much of a difference the way the league is now, you can win without Marner, so I'm simply prepared to move on if Marner is not willing to sign.

Because it makes perfect sense to draw that line in the sand. Signing away UFA years for a big name RFA is fleecing yourself to do the team a huge solid, any big name RFA who does it basically hates money, or they are injury prone and need the security real bad. Marner ain't injury prone, so why do you expect him to hate money?

Guys liking the team they are on and taking a discount to stay is hating money, expecting that out of guys or turning on them if they want to get paid, that's just silly.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Because it makes perfect sense to draw that line in the sand. Signing away UFA years for a big name RFA is fleecing yourself to do the team a huge solid, any big name RFA who does it basically hates money, or they are injury prone and need the security real bad.

He's not UFA, he can sign the offer sheet, or he can suck dicks, if he sucks dicks till November, shop him.

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

He's not UFA, he can sign the offer sheet, or he can suck dicks, if he sucks dicks till November, shop him.

So f*ck every RFA who wants to get paid in UFA? That's dumb, that's what every big name RFA should do, the fact that more of them don't do it, doesn't make the ones smart enough to do it assh*les, it makes the one's not smart enough to do it dumb.

Matthews played it right, and any big name RFA who can do the same should do it too, the one's who don't are suckers. McDavid made a big mistake, Matthews is the smart one, that doesn't make Matthews a jerk, it makes McDavid a sucker.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

So f*ck every RFA who wants to get paid in UFA? That's dumb, that's what every big name RFA should do, the fact that more of them don't do it, doesn't make the ones smart enough to do it assh*les.

Nobody in the league is offering him a five year, there's no offer sheet out there, he's RFA not UFA, the offer sheets were tendered at 7 years,  he refused to sign them, so now he's just holding out to no purpose, at which point I give him till November to come to his senses, if he hasn't by then, then he doesn't want to be here, so shop him.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Nobody in the league is offering him a five year, there's no offer sheet out there, he's RFA not UFA, the offer sheets were tendered at 7 years,  he refused to sign them, so now he's just holding out to no purpose, at which point I give him till November to come to his senses, if he hasn't by then, then he doesn't want to be here, so shop him.

Just give him five years if he won't do anything else, what's the big deal? If you can get him to sign three or six year deal, then go ahead and play hardball, but five years is not a hill worth dying on, and acting like it is, makes no logical sense, and is a pure emotional reaction to player pursuing his own interests.

Other teams don't want to do it right now because of four firsts and a huge overpay to avoid the offer sheet being matched, the Leafs can get him for cheaper and will have to give up a lot less.

You are perfectly cool with a six year deal, but if it's five, Marner is dead to you? That makes no sense at all and that's why Marner hasn't budged yet, he knows one less year of term being a dealbreaker for the Leafs is asinine.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Just give him five years if he won't do anything else, what's the big deal? If you can get him to sign three or six year deal, then go ahead and play hardball, but five years is not a hill worth dying on, and acting like it is, makes no logical sense, and is a pure emotional reaction to player pursuing his own interests.

If there is a offer sheet for 5 x 11.6 he can go ahead and sign it now, but since he hasn't, that means it isn't there.

If he's going to sit the whole season out just to throw a tantrum about it, I don't want him on my team anyways, because that's him blowing it up, the Leafs are offering fair market value, nobody is offering better, refusal to sign at this point is the same as demanding a trade.

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

If there is a offer sheet for 5 x 11.6 he can go ahead and sign it now, but since he hasn't, that means it isn't there.

If he's going to sit the whole season out just to throw a tantrum about it, I don't want him on my team anyways, because that's him blowing it up, the Leafs are offering fair market value, nobody is offering better, refusal to sign at this point is the same as demanding a trade.

No one is offering 5 x 11.6, because the Leafs would match it and they don't want to suffer retaliation for nothing and they don't want to massively overpay for five years and give up four first round picks. If they didn't face those constraints and they could poach players with offer sheets without the Leafs being able to match, there would be tons of such offer sheets, it's not an unreasonable ask by Marner at all.

Basically you want to weaponize RFA leverage to f*ck over Marner from getting what he deserves, and him not bending over immediately, taking it in the ass and thanking you for it, that somehow makes him the problem.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

No one is offering 5 x 11.6, because the Leafs would match it and they don't want to suffer retaliation for nothing and they don't want to massively overpay for five years and give up four first round picks. If they didn't face those constraints and they could poach players with offer sheets without the Leafs being able to match, there would be tons of such offer sheets, it's not an unreasonable ask by Marner at all.

No, that's not why, the Leafs would be happy to match, the Leafs wouldn't retaliate, the reason is simply that no team in paying the moon without getting UFA years, not the Leafs, not Two Phones, not even Columbus, has nothing to do with retaliation, there's simply no market for what Marner is demanding,

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

No, that's not why, the Leafs would be happy to match, the Leafs wouldn't retaliate, the reason is simply that no team in paying the moon without getting UFA years, not the Leafs, not Two Phones, not even Columbus, has nothing to do with retaliation, there's simply no market for what Marner is demanding,

The Leafs would match that offer sheet in heartbeat, so what's the point in pulling a Bergevin? There is a market, and if none of the big name RFA's are willing to exploit that, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Aho did it, he took more of a paycut than he should have, but he got his five year term, Marner should do the same, even if he has to sign a lowball offer sheet to do it because the Leafs won't budge, if there are any GMs willing to help the Leafs sign Marner on the cheap that is, not many GM's are as generous as Marc Bergevin.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

The Leafs would match that offer sheet in heartbeat, so what's the point in pulling a Bergevin? There is a market, and if none of the big name RFA's are willing to exploit that, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

There's no market for trading four first round picks without getting a max term, if teams want to offer that they can, but they're not, they're not offering four first rounders unless they get the max term out of that, which is why none of these players have been signed.

if teams want to cave, if they feel the need to cave, they can cave right now and save themselves the hassle, but since teams know that the 5 x 11.6 offer sheet is not coming, there's no reason to cave to the invasive hockey parents, let them rot.  If they push it all the way to November, move on without them.

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

There's no market for trading four first round picks without getting a max term, if teams want to offer that they can, but they're not, they're not offering four first rounders unless they get the max term out of that, which is why none of these players have been signed.

if teams want to cave, if they feel the need to cave, they can cave right now and save themselves the hassle, but since teams know that the 5 x 11.6 offer sheet is not coming, there's no reason to cave to the invasive hockey parents, let them rot.  If they push it all the way to November, move on without them.

The Leafs should do that, they don't need to cave now, just before the season starts, maximize the leverage without hurting the team, then they'll cave slightly less than they otherwise would have. Letting it drag through the season is dumb, Marner isn't Nylander, and Nylander didn't cave, the Leafs did, so why would they not cave to Marner when they caved to Nylander? The only answer would be stupidity.

You can buy into Marner is being unreasonable all you want, that's bullsh*t, he just wants what he deserves, and if the Leafs offer him a reasonable deal on a five year term, he'll take it. They probably won't even have to pay him Matthews money, they might even be able to pay him less than Tavares, and he'll take a five year deal, that shouldn't be let him rot territory.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The Leafs should do that, they don't need to cave now, just before the season starts, maximize the leverage without hurting the team, then they'll cave slightly less.

No, the Leafs should make an example of him, if he doesn't sign by camp, they should lock him out,  make him sign an offer sheet, make him sit indefinitely, stop negotiating with him, if he takes it into the season,  call his bluff, sign an offer sheet or gfy, Paul.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

No, the Leafs should make an example of him, if he doesn't sign by camp, they should lock him out,  make him sign an offer sheet, make him sit indefinitely, stop negotiating with him, if he takes it into the season,  call his bluff, sign an offer sheet or gfy, Paul.

Make an example of someone who isn't Marner. Don't make an example of a key piece of the core by f*cking him over for no good reason. Pick better battles, you don't lowball your core, you lowball depth guys, derp.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Make an example of someone who isn't Marner. Don't make an example of a key piece of the core by f*cking him over for no good reason. Pick better battles, you don't lowball your core, you lowball depth guys, derp.

Nobody is lowballing him, he has his offer sheets, he can go ahead and sign them, if not, let him rot, because he's negotiating in bad faith, and that's when you have to walk away and just wait them out.

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Nobody is lowballing him, he has his offer sheets, he can go ahead and sign them, if not, let him rot, because he's negotiating in bad faith, and that's when you have to walk away and just wait them out.

Making him take less in his UFA years is lowballing. The Leafs are negotiating in bad faith, the offer sheets are not in his best interest, $12.5 million for two years of UFA, is hurting his ability to earn. Come UFA he'll make a lot more than $12.5 million a year, that's lowball.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Not giving him five years is lowballing. The Leafs are negotiating in bad faith.

Let him sign his offer sheets, he has his leverage, let him use it, the Leafs are not in bad faith by refusing to give into his demands, but Marner is in bad faith by refusing to sign the offer sheets which he has in hand but crying that he is getting lowballed in the process.

Lowball means below market value, market value has been determined by the other teams, the Leafs have no control over that, the other teams wont pay 4 x 1st RD for only 5 years, that's not the Leafs lowballing, that's the market setting the price.

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Let him sign his offer sheets, he has his leverage, let him use it, the Leafs are not in bad faith by refusing to give into his demands, but Marner is in bad faith by refusing to sign the offer sheets which he has in hand but crying that he is getting lowballed in the process.

Lowball means below market value, market value has been determined by the other teams, the Leafs have no control over that, the other teams wont pay 4 x 1st RD for only 5 years, that's not the Leafs lowballing, that's the market setting the price.

Marner's market price in UFA is going to be higher than $12.5 million, that's called lowballing, Marner is right. Signing away two years of his prime at what will be less than market rate is Lowball City. You aren't looking at things from Marner's perspective, you are only looking at things through the perspective of people who are helped by Marner making less than the market rate during prime UFA years.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Whatever, I'm sick of going round and round about it, I'm out.

Try putting yourself in Marner's shoes for half of a second, and you'll realize, he's not being unreasonable, he's just trying to maximize his earning potential in his prime, and that isn't worth throwing him under the bus about. If you don't want to do that, fine, I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

Burakovsky on a one year $3.25 million show me deal though, probably the right move, gotta hedge against him being the same old Burakovsky, even if it means paying a little more should he break out. Locking him up on a cheap long term deal and he doesn't take the next step is bigger risk than him breaking out and having to pay him so much we have to trade him.

My thoughts on the Zadorov deal are quite similar to this Burakovsky deal.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Try putting yourself in Marner's shoes for half of a second, and you'll realize, he's not being unreasonable, he's just trying to maximize his earning potential in his prime, and that isn't worth throwing him under the bus about. If you don't want to do that, fine, I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink.

If I was in his shoes I wouldn't blow things up just to get 5 x 12..5 also wouldn't court offer sheets, I would say I'm not looking to go anywhere, and I frankly would be fine with a bridge so the team wouldn't have to get rid of more players, 3 x 9.5 for now as necessary, Kucherov money is not a lowball.

The salary cap is a zero sum game, I don't like the salary cap, but that's the CBA, and after the next lockout, it's not going to get better for the players, so I would be fine signing for 8 x 12.5.   He's gonna lose two seasons here, because after he sits out the year, there's going to be a lockout, so if I was him I would take the completely fair not lowball at all offers from the Leafs.  $100 million bucks?  That's fine, I'd be good with a hundred million.

Frankly he's kind of screwed himself here, because the fans all know that he betrayed them by courting offer sheets to leave, but then when he got the 7 x 12.5 offers,  he refused to sign what he asked for, so now all the teams know that he's just jerking their chains too, he's playing the ends against the center, but now he's painted himself into a corner.

If I was him I wouldn't be risking blowing it up with the Leafs, because it is lucrative to be a Leaf Superstar for life, the Leaf money keeps rolling in, nobody cares about retired Columbus Blue Jackets.  I'd be looking for what they offered Stamkos, 8 x 12.5, with the bloated endorsement contract on top, Leaf money being the gift that keeps on giving, cap circumvention by way of mo Leafs money on the side.

I'd demand a full no movement clause to control my own destiny, and I would take the hundred million front loaded in bonuses, say $24 million a year for four years, then $1 million a year for the last four years, and for tax purposes I would have those one time bonuses paid to my residence in Florida at 40% net, just like Matthews takes his bonuses paid to him in Arizona.

I would be an American for tax purposes, just to stick it to the Canadian commies, but for hockey purposes I would be a Leaf for as long as I could, there's nothing like it, not even Montreal, it's the center of the hockey universe where you are treated like royalty, hockey exile in Columbus would not be for me.

I'd even live right where I live now, in Wellington County, just down the road from Beiber, then I'd take the 6 to the 403 to the Lakeshore to get to the SBA, f*ck Oakville.

Bottom line I'm getting paid no matter what, upwards of a hundred million, so otherwise I would want to be a Made Guy, like Wendel, Dougie, Mats, Borje and Darryl. An NHL career goes by quick, but when you're a Made Guy in Leafs Land, you're still a king, fifty years later.

In terms of the cup, that's up to the Hockey Gods, but now that the Leafs do everything right, you've got as a good a chance here and now than anywhere else, and winning the cup anywhere else, just wouldn't be the same, like when Tampa won the cup, you could have walked up to the box office and bought a ticket to see it, because even in the Stanley Cup Finals, they weren't even sold out.

As for "trade Nylander and Tavares", I wouldn't say that, that's self defeating, I'd actually be willing to make concessions to fit everybody under the cap, same as Stammer did,  same as Kucherov did, same as Hedman did.

I'm with Shanny, take one for the team now and it will pay you back many times over long after the wheels fall off, you could even have Shanny's job, President Leafs is a nice little retirement plan. I'm gonna be rich, set for life, Nine Figures Club, but if I could spread the hit over 8 years to keep the band together? Of course I would, in a heartbeat,

Look at Cliff Fletcher, he literally does nothing, he just sits in the VIP and drinks cocktails, yet they still pay him a six figure salary just for making the Doug Gilmour trade, being a Made Guy in Leafs Land, you could blow all the money from your NHL contract and still end up a multimillionaire by way of Leafs residuals alone,  and more importantly, you never have to leave, you're a Leaf for life, you'll have a role to play in the NHL Original Six, literally till the day you die, Johnny Bower, godspeed..  The House That Conn Smythe Built is not a sports franchise, it's a religion. 

Win the cup here, and you are Jesus Herald LeafChrist, I wouldn't throw a chance at that away, for a few sheckles more in Columbus.

God save the Queen, Dileas Gu Brath.

 

[Yzermandius19]

Why is a five year contract, blowing it up? Why is a six year contract perfectly fine? Asking for five years isn't blowing it up anymore than Matthews asking for five years is blowing it up, Marner hasn't betrayed them, toxic Leafs media is just spinning sh*t to make Marner look bad.

Signing away your prime UFA years is dumb, Matthews knows. He's willing to take a hit to sign for five years in Toronto, and the Leafs are acting like he's out to ruin the team because he won't sign a more team friendly deal with a slightly shorter or longer term immediately. Stop blaming Marner for wanting to get paid and stay a Leaf, team friendly contracts are for suckers, Marner doesnt need to bend over backwards for the Leafs to remain contenders for a long time, so why should he?

A five year deal ain't blowing it up. If the Leafs refuse to sign him to a five year deal, because they want one UFA year so damn bad, that's them blowing it up. If the Leafs insist on being crazy though, just take two bridge deals instead, a 3-year, then a 2-year, then cash in on UFA in his prime years. But then the fans would still pretend he betrayed them for not signing for 8x12.5, so there is no use trying to be a made guy in Toronto anymore, the fan base will turn on anyone for not letting the Leafs lock them up on the cheap apparently.

Turn down millions, you're a traitor, how ridiculous. How is asking for one year less than Nylander a dealbreaker?

Edited July 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Marner himself uses the "toxic Leafs media" as his spokespeople, the firm of Dreger and Kypreos are his sycophants.

Let him rot.

If he sits out the whole season he ain't coming back anyways, so if he's not signing by November, you have to shop him.

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Marner himself uses the "toxic Leafs media" as his spokespeople, the firm of Dreger and Kypreos are his sycophants.

Let him rot.

If he sits out the whole season he ain't coming back anyways, so if he's not signing by November, you have to shop him.

Both sides use the toxic Leafs media as their spokespeople, which is why everyone is whipped into a frenzy over standard negotiations because they are pretending the sky is falling because they need something to talk about all Summer. It is not unusual for the contract negotiations to play out like this, but the Leafs media and fans are a bunch of SIFCLF's looking for a scapegoat because Marner didn't sign immediately and Leafs media and fans are impatient as hockey media and fans get.

I see no signs that Marner is going to pull a Nylander just because he hasn't signed already, and he wants a five year deal, talk of him being a traitor for not signing immediately and wanting a five year deal at this point in the process is ridiculous, simmer down. Any player who signs a team friendly deal right out the gate is a sucker, not being a sucker doesn't make Marner a traitor.

Joe Sakic signed an offer sheet, but yet no one in Denver calls him a traitor, yet Marner is a traitor for simply mulling them over as negotiation leverage, get a grip dude.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Both sides use the toxic Leafs media as their spokespeople, which is why everyone is whipped into a frenzy over standard negotiations because they are pretending the sky is falling because they need something to talk about all Summer. It is not unusual for the contract negotiations to play out like this, but the Leafs media and fans are a bunch of SIFCLF's looking for a scapegoat because Marner didn't sign immediately.

I see no signs that Marner is going to pull a Nylander just because he hasn't signed already, and he wants a five year deal, talk of him being a traitor for not signing immediately and wanting a five year deal at this point in the process is ridiculous, simmer down. Any player who signs a team friendly deal right out the gate is a sucker, not being a sucker doesn't make Marner a traitor.

I'm not one who thinks Marner is a traitor, but the fan base clearly feels betrayed by him courting offer sheets from Two Phones and Jarmo K.

I want him to sign the offer sheet, Two Phones offered 7 x 12.5, fair enough, sign it, we'll match it.

"Wanh-wanh, I have to have Matthews' contract exactly because poor little Mitch has been disrespected", that shit I have zero time for, f*ck Paul Marner, let him rot.

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not one who thinks Marner is a traitor, but the fan base clearly feels betrayed by him courting offer sheets from Two Phones and Jarmo K.

I want him to sign the offer sheet, Two Phones offered 7 x 12.5, fair enough, sign it, we'll match it.

"Wanh-wanh, I have to have Matthews' contract exactly because poor little Mitch has been disrespected", that shit I have zero time for, f*ck Paul Marner, let him rot.

He'd take Aho's contract if it was offered too. Slightly more expensive Aho would get the deal done, it's not the dollar figure that's holding things up, it's the term. It's not $12.5 million he's turning down, it's the seven year term he's turning down. He knows when he hits UFA, he's going to be in his prime, and he's going to be making more than $12.5 million, so he doesn't want to lock himself into the final two years of a seven year deal on the cheap, he wants to maximize the biggest contract of his career and not eat into it.

Sakic signed an offer sheet, Denver did not feel betrayed, he's still a made guy, as made as it gets. Yet in Toronto, they feel betrayed Marner's even considering the idea of signing one. Toronto fans are a toxic fan base, whipped into hysteria by a toxic media.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19