Trudeau

[mirror]

Well for starters most women won't touch this stuff because of the overly aggressive nature of the people that frequent these places.

Secondly the anonymous poster can act any way they wish which they might never ever do, or say, in real life, so everything needs to be taken with more than one grain of salt.

There are lots of other reasons as well.

[B. Max]

It took alberta nearly twenty years to recover from trudeau. The country never will. Fifty thousand people in alberta lost their businesses homes and everything they had over night. He will always be hated in alberta.

[Melanie_]

Mirror, you surprise me with this statement about women - seems out of character somehow, but as you say we really know very little about each other after all. Upon reflection, though, we don't have very many regular posters here that are obviously women (off the top of my head I can think of myself and 2 others). I don't really find very many people overly aggressive - opinionated perhaps, but that's what discussion forums are set up for. Most have a great sense of humour, so even when I disagree with them I can appreciate the personality behind the statement.

Sir Spanky, whether or not people participate in these discussions isn't necessarily an indication of their interests in politics - the internet is just one forum for discussion. I'm sure many of us debate the same arguments over the water cooler or dinner table, and the people we debate with there are just as interested in the issues.

[mirror]

It took alberta nearly twenty years to recover from trudeau. The country never will.  Fifty thousand people in alberta lost their businesses homes and everything they had over night. He will always be hated in alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an absurd statement to make about someone who is dead and buried.

As one of the previous posters said, it is time to get over it.

People who live in the past die of remorse.

[B. Max]

It took alberta nearly twenty years to recover from trudeau. The country never will.  Fifty thousand people in alberta lost their businesses homes and everything they had over night. He will always be hated in alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an absurd statement to make about someone who is dead and buried.

As one of the previous posters said, it is time to get over it.

People who live in the past die of remorse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you think it's to late to dig him up and hang him.

[August1991]

At least he tried to unify the country, albeit in his own way.

Newbie, you apparently understand Ontario's and Anglo-Quebec's fascination with Trudeau.

Without Trudeau (without the federal Liberal Party), Ontario fears it will become Michigan and Torontonians fear they will become Detroit.

Anglo-Quebec? They say they admire Trudeau - but they didn't trust him. They left.

Given the world of 1950s Europe, Pierre Elliott Trudeau lead central English Canada on an intellectual voyage.

[Sir Chauncy]

I think our most unpopular recent prime minister was Mulroney and I don't think it had anything to do with his being a tory.

I'd be curious to know why people think he was so unpopular.

I wonder what people's perceptions of Martin are - my impression is that he is not well liked. How is he perceived in Quebec?

_______________

Mulroony was a blatent lier, period.He ran his campaign on the line "No free trade" and after winning emmediately brought in free trade. He was arrogant and self importent. He was also "owned" by American interests. Look at how talk is rising today to get out of free trade because America simply cant be trusted to honor any deals they make with anyone. Mulroony prefered to spend his time South of the border playing golf and singing Irish songs with the American President rather then take care of Canada. History should teach that he was the most hated PM in history, and one day if the truth ever comes out they may call him the American Prime Minister.

Martin, time will tell if he really is as dumb as he appears. He is a nice old man though and that so far has been his saving grace. He looks sorely out of place next to other leaders.

Sir Chauncy

[mirror]

One of the myths about Mulroney is that he was a big supporter of fighting apartheid. That's a crock.

Mulroney was involved with Peter Munk and Barrick Gold. When the South Africans gold mines were boycotted guess who benefitted? You got that right. Mulroney is on Barrick's BoD with George Bush Sr.

Oh yea, I guess we had better not mention the airbus commissions.

[Sir Chauncy]

Newbie, you apparently understand Ontario's and Anglo-Quebec's fascination with Trudeau.

Without Trudeau, Ontario fears it will be Michigan and Torontonians fear they will be Detroit.

Anglo-Quebec? They say they admire Trudeau - but they didn't trust him. They left.

Given the world of 1950s Europe, Pierre Elliott Trudeau lead central English Canada on an intellectual voyage.

_______________________

Do you actually have anything to say besides something that you "think" looks intellectually wonderful.

Ont feared we would be Michigan, Toronto feared they'd be Detroit.

What is that nonsense. Where'd you dig it up.

Anglo Quebec didnt leave. Business was leaving Quebec. Business, get it. They are the employers of people.

The world of the 50s had nothing to do with Truedues coming to power. He was elected in 68 for his first term, An unknown who was given a high profile job in the Governing Liberal part to get his name known. He was chosen by Pierson to replace him as head of the Liberals. He was groomed to be PM. He was a know Quebec seperatist before Pierson convinced him to join the Liberals. His work toward Quebec certainly garnered lots of money for the Province, and did for many years.

I detested the man.After his death I listened to people bemoan him and decided that perhaps he was a better man then I gave him credit for. He certainly did teach politicians how to run a deficite though.

Your entire post is nonsense. Like the thread starter I think you are young.

Sir Chauncy

[Sir Chauncy]

One of the myths about Mulroney is that he was a big supporter of fighting apartheid. That's a crock.

Mulroney was involved with Peter Munk and Barrick Gold. When the South Africans gold mines were boycotted guess who benefitted? You got that right. Mulroney is on Barrick's BoD with George Bush Sr.

Oh yea, I guess we had better not mention the airbus commissions.

_________________

Yeup, you know da man allright.LOL

Sir

[newbie]

He was a know Quebec seperatist before Pierson convinced him to join the Liberals. His work toward Quebec certainly garnered lots of money for the Province, and did for many years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would really like a link or two to back this up. If he was a "known separatist" he certainly had changed by 1982 when he apparently refused to offer any deals to Quebec to sign the charter. Maybe you can enlighten me further.

[mirror]

That comment surprises me as well. There is no mention of anything to that effect here:

Pierre Elliott Trudeau

Biography

1919 - 2000

"I believe a constitution can permit the co-existence of several cultures and ethnic groups with a single state." --  Trudeau, September 30, 1965

Pierre Trudeau held his philosophy of one Canada and a strong federal government before he became prime minister and he maintained it throughout his political career. His response to the FLQ Crisis, his rejection of the Quebec separatist movement, as well as his patriation of the Constitution and promotion of official bilingualism are all manifestations of this belief.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau was born in Montreal in 1919; his father was Québécois, his mother of Scottish descent. He went to a local school, Académie Querbes, and then to the Jesuit college, Jean-de-Brébeuf. In spite of the Depression, Trudeau's father had become a wealthy man in the 1930s and the family toured Canada and Europe frequently. In 1940, Trudeau began studying law at the University of Montreal. As a student, he was required to join the Canadian Officers Training Corps during the war, but like many Quebeckers, Trudeau was opposed to conscription.

After graduating in 1943, he passed his bar exams, and then enrolled in a Master's program at Harvard. In 1946, he went to Paris to study at the École des sciences politiques, and then at the London School of Economics in Britain. By 1948, Trudeau was on a backpacking tour of Eastern Europe, and the Middle and Far East, areas of considerable turbulence in the post-war world. After many adventures, he arrived back in Canada the following year.

Trudeau worked in Ottawa as advisor to the Privy Council before returning to Montreal. He began supporting labour unions, especially during in [sic] the Asbestos Strike, and criticized the repression of the Union Nationale under Premier Duplessis. With other outspoken intellectuals, Trudeau started the journal Cité Libre as a forum for their ideas. In 1961, he began teaching law at the University of Montreal. In 1965, the Liberal party was looking for potential candidates in Quebec; Trudeau and two of his colleagues, Jean Marchand and Gérard Pelletier, were invited to run for the party in the federal election that year. They won their seats, and in April 1967, Trudeau became Minister of Justice. Within a year, he had reformed the divorce laws and liberalized the laws on abortion and homosexuality.

When Lester Pearson resigned as prime minister in 1968, Trudeau was invited to run as a candidate. He won the Liberal leadership convention and called an election immediately after. Capitalizing on his extraordinary popular appeal, labelled "Trudeaumania" by the press, he won a majority government in the June election. One of the most important bills passed by his government was the Official Languages Act, guaranteeing bilingualism in the civil service.

A serious threat to national security occurred in 1970, when the terrorist group, Front de libération du Quebec, kidnapped a British diplomat. Upon the request of Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa, Trudeau imposed the War Measures Act. The situation was quickly resolved and the terrorists apprehended, but not before Quebec Cabinet Minister Pierre Laporte was murdered and hundreds of people arrested and held without charges. In 1972, the Liberals were returned with a minority government, but regained a majority in 1974. This decade experienced a period of high inflation, which Trudeau's government attempted to contain with wage and price controls. These economic difficulties and a sense of alienation in Western Canada led to the defeat of the Liberals in 1979. Deciding not to serve as leader of the Opposition, Trudeau announced his resignation from politics. However the Conservative comeback was shortlived; their minority government was defeated within six months. Trudeau was persuaded to return as party leader and the Liberals won the election the following year.

His last term in office was devoted to national unity in opposition to the separatist goals of the Parti Québécois who governed Quebec. Trudeau campaigned vigorously for the "No" supporters in the Quebec referendum on sovereignty-association in 1980. He also set about patriating the Constitution and drafted a Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The cooperation of the provinces was required to accomplish this; the eighteen-month federal-provincial negotiations were drawn-out and highly contentious, with dissenting ministers and rulings from the Supreme Court and various provincial courts. Consent was finally achieved in 1982, but without the cooperation of Quebec Premier René Lévesque. In a ceremony on Parliament Hill, the Queen signed Canada's new Constitution Act on April 17, 1982.

Having accomplished his goal of strengthening Canadian federalism, Trudeau turned his attention to international affairs, campaigning for world peace and improving the relationship between the industrialized nations and Third World countries.

After a total of sixteen years as prime minister, he resigned from politics in 1984. He returned to practicing law, travelled extensively and published his memoirs. His death on September 28, 2000, just short of his eighty-first birthday, prompted an outpouring of grief and tributes from across the country.

[Guest eureka]

B.Max, your atatement about 50,000 people losing their homes and businesses overnight and linkung this falsehood to Trudeau is illustrative of the abysmal ignorance that fuels the so-called Western alienation.

The difference between that and the Quebec malcontent is only that there is a different set of "seditionists" feeding the frenzy and in Quebec using both language and money to seduce the ignorant. Alberta, of course, uses money and a mythical Democratic Deficit.

For both, it is a level of ignorance that should make us ashamed of an education system that turns out so many boneheads.

[Argus]

I agree with most of your comments Argus, but I'd give Pierre an A for effort. At least he tried to unify the country, albeit in his own way. Yes, he was arrogant, but that's what's perceived sometimes when one tries to reach one's goal undaunted. If he did nothing he'd be perceived as indecisive or lame duck. He was a die-hard federalist, and I really believe everything he did politically had that theme in mind. I think the West needs to get over Trudeau and move on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, saying that "at least" he tried to unify the country "in his own way" is somewhat meaningless. So did Mulroney. I'm sure Chretien's ultimate aim was not to divide the country, though that was the result.

Trudeau made it clear on many occasions that he was opposed to seperatism in large measure because he thought Quebec would be much better off within confederation than as a sort of rump state out on its own. So it wasn't so much his love of Canada as his love of Quebec which made him seek accomodation within confederation for Quebec.

[Argus]

Begs the question; why don't the "vast majority of Canadians" post on these forums, which generally indicate a concerted interest in politics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Old people don't understand the internet. Middle aged people are busy cleaning te rain gutters and washing windows. Young people hurt their brains on all that "readin' an' ritin' stuff", and prefer video games.

[Argus]

Regarding the repatriation of the Constitution, he did not bring back an "imperfect" Constitution. He patriated the Constitution that was in existence. The "Notwithstanding" Clause was not of his devising and very much against his wishes and beliefs. It was forced on him by Provincial Premiers who would not agree to the amending provisions without it. He should have been firmer on that.

The Patriation, itself, was a resounding achievement and accomplished what Canada had been trying to do since the Treatyof Westminster It had faltered every time over the amending principles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you say in what way the repatriation of the Constitution has made Canada a better place? Clearly it's made a fortune for lawyers, but despite immense expense and endless fights I fail to see how it has made one single positive difference to the people of Canada.

[Argus]

I think our most unpopular recent prime minister was Mulroney and I don't think it had anything to do with his being a tory.

I'd be curious to know why people think he was so unpopular.

I wonder what people's perceptions of Martin are - my impression is that he is not well liked.  How is he perceived in Quebec?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mulroney's party had its heartland support in the West and "traditional" English Canada. However, when Mulroney took over he brought in masses of Quebec 'soft seperatists", and because he was a Quebecer running against a non-Francophone, non Quebecer, the PC party made massive inroads in Quebec for the first time in a very long time. A lot of these new Quebec PCs were highly inexperienced, and, to put it bluntly, some were not all that honest. Even his more experienced MPs had no experience at governing. Needless to say, there were mistakes along the way.

The press was irrevocably hostile. They didn't like Mulroney and didn't trust a PC government. As Mulroney's reign in power continued, the media grew ever more hostile. Every miscue made huge headlines. Issues which drew mass media condemnation for endless days and forced ministers to resign were, during Chretien's reign, largely ignored by the media - which reflexively supported him because it feared and detested the conservative opposition.

In addition, the PCs main base of support in the west and among traditional English Canadians melted away because of Mulroney's decision to govern like the Liberals - ie, all attention to Quebec and Quebec's whining, some spillover for Ontario, and ignore the rest. I knew people on the Hill during Mulroney's time. One example; Mulroney ordered all the members of his large caucus to fire any of their administrative/secretarial assistants who could not speak French. Even if the MP in question had little or no Francophone representation in their ridings.

And, of course, he had that sort of outgoing, swaggering attitude that could come off as somewhat greasy at times.

Add in that most of his rule was in tough economic times (not his doing), which means instead of a PM constantly doling out goodies as Martin has been doing, you have one constantly cutting back on program spending. That doesn't make for great popularity either.

Come the final, fateful election, where the party now had an Anglo, non-Quebecer running against a Quebec Francophone Liberal, and with its western and traditional support base feeling betrayed, it was all-but certain the party would be crushed. And it was.

[Argus]

I think our most unpopular recent prime minister was Mulroney and I don't think it had anything to do with his being a tory.

I'd be curious to know why people think he was so unpopular.

I wonder what people's perceptions of Martin are - my impression is that he is not well liked. How is he perceived in Quebec?

_______________

Mulroony was a blatent lier, period.

Trudeau was worse. So was Chretien. Martin is certainly no better. Canadians don't have a problem with our political leaders lying to us.

He ran his campaign on the line "No free trade" and after winning emmediately brought in free trade.

Uhm, no. Free Trade was not a major issue in his election campaign. He had opposed it during his nomination fight, but later came to believe it would be a good idea. He signed a letter of intent to discuss Free Trade. It was only ratified after the 1988 election, which was fought largely on Free trade.

He was arrogant and self importent.

True. As was Trudeau, as was Chretien, as is Martin.

He was also "owned" by American interests.

There is no evidence of that. Mulroney got along famously with the American administration, and that certainly irked some nationalists, most of them knee-jerk anti-Americans.

Look at how talk is rising today to get out of free trade because America simply cant be trusted to honor any deals they make with anyone.

I suspect that if the leaders of the Liberal Party, including Martin, had not gone out of their way to antagonise the US administration this would not be happening.

Mulroony prefered to spend his time South of the border playing golf and singing Irish songs with the American President rather then take care of Canada.

Chretien probably took more holidays in the US than Mulroney did, and there's no evidence he did _anything_ for Canada. I mean, if ever a man was in politics for himself, with no vision and no interest in helping his country, it was Jean Chretien. Mulroney had a vision, he had things he wanted to do which he thought would improve this country. He was an extremely hard-working man who worked late into the evening nearly every day - unlike Chretien, for example.

History should teach that he was the most hated PM in history, and one day if the truth ever comes out they may call him the American Prime Minister.

Such sentiments are pure hyperbole, Drivel driven by hatred of the Americans (which in turn is driven by jealousy of their success and resentment of their power)

Martin, time will tell if he really is as dumb as he appears. He is a nice old man though

Known for screaming, spittle-flying, red-faced rages against his underlings. Yes, such a nice old man.

[Canuck E Stan]

Mulroney was hated for the changes he was making to the Canadian economic landscape. Candians were bitter about these changes and knew a price would be paid to make these changes(unemployment,job loses). Mulroney didn't seem to care how Canadians felt about Free Trade or NAFTA and was going to do it anyway. Chretien took advantage of this by promising to reverse these decisions, and everyone voted for him. The Tories lost big time,Chretien ended up being a big time lier, and the Reform party was born as a result.

Worst PM in modern times(last 30 years) any PM that was a lawyer.Take your pick

[I Miss Trudeau]

I miss trudeau

Let's have your comments to offset such a huge distortion of what Trudeau did for Canada.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd rather argue evolution at a creationist convention than get involved in this thread of historical revisionism.

[mirror]

I don't blame you.

I don't think have ever heard such a pile of unadulterated crap in my entire life. It seems like all the Trudeau haters in the world sprung to life when this thread was started. You know August, bakunin, Argus, etc.

[Canuck E Stan]

Watch it Mirror, your begining to troll.

[Shady]

Trudeau's fiscal irresponsibility isn't revisionist history, it's fact.

[Guest eureka]

I did not say that repatriaiton had any role in making Canada a better place, Argus. I said it was a great achievement by Trudeau.

Canada had been trying to repatriate the Constitution for fifty years, stumbling over provincial demands for concessions every time until Trudeau succeded without concession except fot the "Notwithstanding" Clause.

There were also a few improvements such as the recognotion of Aboriginals through Sec. 25.

The good it did for Canada is that it removed the last vestige of Colonialism and ought to have started this nation on to a greater degree of cohesion and self regard. That it dod not is the fault of the Provincial war lords and of Quebec particularly.

[B. Max]

B.Max, your atatement about 50,000 people losing their homes and businesses overnight and linkung this falsehood to Trudeau is  illustrative of the abysmal ignorance that fuels the so-called Western alienation.

The difference between that and the Quebec malcontent is only that there is a different set of "seditionists"  feeding the frenzy and in Quebec using both language and money to seduce the ignorant. Alberta, of course, uses money and a mythical Democratic Deficit.

For both, it is a level of ignorance that should make us ashamed of an education system that turns out so many boneheads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong again eureka. It is no falsehood i was there. Entire companies were wiped off the map in an instant. Alberta's economy was devastated. Those are the facts. It is also a fact that it was caused by trudeau and he is hated in alberta to this day.