UP UP UP AND UP!

[canadian_conservative]

I am making this topic to here your oppinions and issues and suggestions in the gas prices and what the federal, provincial governments can do to bring prices down.

Gas prices have gone up more than 40 cents in just a few years. Already some cities and provinces are paying over 1.00 a litre or MORE!!! to go to the pumps and maybe if your lucky you live in a town that sells gas for 97 cents a litre. I don't think this is fair do you? Yesturday i saw on the national that we were paying some sort of gas tax to bring the federal deficit down and now that it is gone we are still paying this extra tax! The provincial and federal governemnts have to stop bathing in the tax money they get from gas and work on a solution to bring prices down or we are going to lose the western half of Canada.

Whats your intake on this?

[SirSpanky]

I'll take it from an environmentalists point of view:

For many many years we didn't pay the value of what oil, and its burning, and its polluting cost. If we're going to burn fossil fuels, the price should be such that any damage we cause by using them has funds available to fix it with. Whether or not the government will use the funds to fix it is their responsability. I don't have any figures save those in my textbooks (if you guys want them I could type them out), but I'm pretty sure when I was paying $0.50 for a liter, I was getting a bargain.

[August1991]

Current crude oil prices would have to rise to over $70 to match prices (in real, inflation corrected terms) of the late 1970s, early 1980s. See graph.

Futures contracts for oil prices show a declining trend starting about two years hence. (I'd bet that futures traders know more about oil prices than anywone on the planet.) See table.

With prices over $60 per barrel, two things will happen in relatively short order - and they're happening now already. People will find alternatives to oil and alot of oil projects will look profitable. The US government should do absolutely nothing; anything it does will only make matters worse.

----

Local gasoline prices are obviously correlated with world crude prices. Gasoline is heavily taxed in Canada but not as much as in Europe where prices are typically twice ours. IME, Canadian gasoline prices compare enviably to other countries with the exception of Saudi Arabia. No other retail market in Canada is as competitive. What other business shows its after-tax retail price with giant signs for all to see?

I take the view that high gasoline taxes combined with difficult urban parking improve the quality of life of people in cities. Ideally, drivers would pay directly for their use of road space. Until that is the case, gasoline taxes are a rough estimate of the cost imposed on others of driving a car.

[cybercoma]

What I find strange is that gas companies would claim most of the price of gas is from government taxes, when the price of fuel in Michigan is the same as in Windsor (after doing conversions litres to gallons, CAD to USD) and they're taxed lower. I just don't know what to make of gas prices anymore.

[Leader Circle]

It kind of makes that SUV purchase a little less attractive and that "smart car" purchase the conservative way to go. Here in Alberta, people love their SUV's, maybe they will take a second look if the oil prices keep climbing!

Car companies have to be worried about SUV sales, if gas continues upward!

I test drove a Hummer yesterday and it was very impressive, but it has a 6.0L high output engine in it, which equals 10MPG. Not good! I think I will stick to my diesel!!

[Black Dog]

Gas prices have gone up more than 40 cents in just a few years. Already some cities and provinces are paying over 1.00 a litre or MORE!!! to go to the pumps and maybe if your lucky you live in a town that sells gas for 97 cents a litre. I don't think this is fair do you? Yesturday i saw on the national that we were paying some sort of gas tax to bring the federal deficit down and now that it is gone we are still paying this extra tax! The provincial and federal governemnts have to stop bathing in the tax money they get from gas and work on a solution to bring prices down or we are going to lose the western half of Canada.

You know what? Good. More in a second, but first, it's worth pointing out that Albertans get the cheapest gas in th ecountry, not to mention that high crud eprices mean money money money for the province (even a province that takes in such a paltry share of oil royalties as Alberta). So idon't see what bearing gas prices would have on western alienation.

Now, gas prices. Even at over a buck a litre, gas is cheap. The price of gas in no way reflects the true cost, which would include the tax subsidization of the oil industry and other government program subsidies; production and transportation costs, environmental, health and otehr social costs, roads, military budgets and so on and so forth.

Personally, I think we're just seeing the beginning of the end of the oil age.

[canadian_conservative]

Gas prices have gone up more than 40 cents in just a few years. Already some cities and provinces are paying over 1.00 a litre or MORE!!! to go to the pumps and maybe if your lucky you live in a town that sells gas for 97 cents a litre. I don't think this is fair do you? Yesturday i saw on the national that we were paying some sort of gas tax to bring the federal deficit down and now that it is gone we are still paying this extra tax! The provincial and federal governemnts have to stop bathing in the tax money they get from gas and work on a solution to bring prices down or we are going to lose the western half of Canada.

You know what? Good. More in a second, but first, it's worth pointing out that Albertans get the cheapest gas in th ecountry, not to mention that high crud eprices mean money money money for the province (even a province that takes in such a paltry share of oil royalties as Alberta). So idon't see what bearing gas prices would have on western alienation.

Now, gas prices. Even at over a buck a litre, gas is cheap. The price of gas in no way reflects the true cost, which would include the tax subsidization of the oil industry and other government program subsidies; production and transportation costs, environmental, health and otehr social costs, roads, military budgets and so on and so forth.

Personally, I think we're just seeing the beginning of the end of the oil age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How come you don;t care do you not drive a car or fill up at the pumps or are you just rich and can throw money around? (that question doesn't ahev to be answered)

What do you mean Albertans have the cheapest oil prices? Calgary, Alberta is paying over a buck a litre for gas thats not cheap out west it is higher well here in Winnipeg I am paying about 97-98 cents a litre.

[Black Dog]

How come you don;t care do you not drive a car or fill up at the pumps or are you just rich and can throw money around? (that question doesn't ahev to be answered)

I'll answer it anyway. Many years ago, I made a concious decision to redesign my life in order to eliminate driving. I've been carless for more than 7 years and its been the best decision I could have made. I believe that our society's addiction to cheap oil is a dead end, one that has created and excrabated problems from terrorism, to global warming and environmental destruction, to the health of individuals. And I think that we're due for a reckoning.

What do you mean Albertans have the cheapest oil prices? Calgary, Alberta is paying over a buck a litre for gas thats not cheap out west it is higher well here in Winnipeg I am paying about 97-98 cents a litre.

I posted this in another thread, but here it is again:

Gas prices/L in major Canadian markets

WHITEHORSE: 108.9

VANCOUVER 105.5

CALGARY 90.5

SASKATOON 94.9

WINNIPEG 94.1

SUDBURY 96.7

TORONTO 96.1

OTTAWA 98.4

MONTREAL 108.4

QUEBEC 101.4

SAINT JOHN 104.9

CHARLOTTETOWN 100.3

HALIFAX 104.9

ST. JOHN'S 104.8

-source: M.J. Ervin + Associates

[canadian_conservative]

I'll answer it anyway. Many years ago, I made a concious decision to redesign my life in order to eliminate driving. I've been carless for more than 7 years and its been the best decision I could have made. I believe that our society's addiction to cheap oil is a dead end, one that has created and excrabated problems from terrorism, to global warming and environmental destruction, to the health of individuals. And I think that we're due for a reckoning.

I respect that. But if you did have a car you woudl think that it is a lot of money to fill up you tank wouldnt you? Also if you commute by taking the bus around town (it's still not as bad as geting gas for your own car) but you will notice to get bussed around town is going up right?

Those stats are way out of date becasue just a few days ago on the news calgary's gas price hit over 1.00 not the worst place but pretty close to canada's most expensive places to fill up.

I just found this site Calgary's gas has dropped but it's still pretty bad though. Over East where they too produce some gas they are paying up to 107.0 check it out: http://www.garnetknight.com/gas/

[Yaro]

The government shouldn't do anything; high gas prices are an incentive to alter behavior. This behavior needs to be changed if not now then in very short order, if the high gas prices start a slow shift towards this new behavior today why change it knowing that the more dramatic shift that would have to happen down the road would be even worse?

[canadian_conservative]

The government shouldn't do anything; high gas prices are an incentive to alter behavior. This behavior needs to be changed if not now then in very short order, if the high gas prices start a slow shift towards this new behavior today why change it knowing that the more dramatic shift that would have to happen down the road would be even worse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I get it and all they are trying to get people to not drive cars. But people need to get around what does the governemnt expect you to do walk to a place that would take two hours by car? Also who wants totake busses all their life? They are trying to reduce pollution but theirs a point where it does get ridiculus ad that point is now when my son is able to drive a car I don't want him to pay 2.00 or more a litre for gas. It is all a sham the government wins anyway, if they get rid of pollutiont hey earned money with it if they fail hell they stil got the cash they are happy!

[Yaro]

Well I get it and all they are trying to get people to not drive cars. But people need to get around what does the governemnt expect you to do walk to a place that would take two hours by car? Also who wants totake busses all their life? They are trying to reduce pollution but theirs a point where it does get ridiculus ad that point is now when my son is able to drive a car I don't want him to pay 2.00 or more a litre for gas. It is all a sham the government wins anyway, if they get rid of pollutiont hey earned money with it if they fail hell they stil got the cash they are happy!

Its not pollution, it’s the fact that oil prices aren't falling ever. Not significantly anyways. In a free enterprise system the only real motivation for change is money, people won't do it for pollution, they won't do it for efficiency, people won't look past there nose. I know the idea of reducing driving sucks, it sucks for me to, I don't live downtown I live 30 minutes out of downtown and I will drive my car for a very long time still but economics will determine the viability of that, and I don't see a point in artificially delaying that by reducing taxes. We can keep reducing taxes to nothing all we are doing is delaying for a very short time the issue of switching over to other systems.

Your son (depending on his age) may very well NEVER drive a pure gas car, Europeans already pay more then 2 US per litre, and in some parts of Japan its more then 5 US per litre. This is simply the new reality, were going to use up the oil (regardless of how much there turns out to be) very very quickly.

Hell I am all for reducing the taxes on oil if the government is willing to actually nationalize a significant portion of our oil reserves, in this circumstance it would give us a huge competitive advantage and makes good economic sense but simply reducing the gas taxes for very temporary relief? It’s pointless, and we have to keep in mind we still have a 600 billion dollar deficit.

[Black Dog]

But if you did have a car you woudl think that it is a lot of money to fill up you tank wouldnt you? Also if you commute by taking the bus around town (it's still not as bad as geting gas for your own car) but you will notice to get bussed around town is going up right?

Sure its a lot, but I figure it's a fair price to pay for the privilege of car ownership. As for ttransit, my transit rates haven't increased in (I think) two years. I don't know if high gas prices will be a detriment to transit or a benefit (perhaps high gas prices will encourage more people to take th ebus, thu smaking it cheaper).

Those stats are way out of date becasue just a few days ago on the news calgary's gas price hit over 1.00 not the worst place but pretty close to canada's most expensive places to fill up.

I'm not sure having oil has any bearing on gas prices, which are tied to the global price of crude. For example, the vast majority of Alberta's oil and gas is exported for consumption elsewhere, so there's little benefit to Albertans at the pumps.

[canadian_conservative]

But if you did have a car you woudl think that it is a lot of money to fill up you tank wouldnt you? Also if you commute by taking the bus around town (it's still not as bad as geting gas for your own car) but you will notice to get bussed around town is going up right?

Sure its a lot, but I figure it's a fair price to pay for the privilege of car ownership. As for ttransit, my transit rates haven't increased in (I think) two years. I don't know if high gas prices will be a detriment to transit or a benefit (perhaps high gas prices will encourage more people to take th ebus, thu smaking it cheaper).

Those stats are way out of date becasue just a few days ago on the news calgary's gas price hit over 1.00 not the worst place but pretty close to canada's most expensive places to fill up.

I'm not sure having oil has any bearing on gas prices, which are tied to the global price of crude. For example, the vast majority of Alberta's oil and gas is exported for consumption elsewhere, so there's little benefit to Albertans at the pumps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I don;t know about you or anybody else in this forum but when I want to go visit a sick grandmother, Get groceries, get on time to my meetings for my job or just have to be on time somwhere I don't want to stand outside waiting for the bus to arrive on its own time to pick me up. I want to be able to get my self their don;t you?

Its all just greed the government wont drop gas prices and its not so they lower green house gas emitions it is for their own benifit!! they are getting the $$ from gas taxes. You have to be blind not to see that.

[Riverwind]

Its all just greed the government wont drop gas prices and its not so they lower green house gas emitions it is for their own benifit!! they are getting the $$ from gas taxes.  You have to be blind not to see that.

Our society desperately needs an alternative to oil and the internal combustion engine. Cheap gas just makes the alternatives economically unviable. High gas prices are the best thing that has happened in a long time.

[canadian_conservative]

Its all just greed the government wont drop gas prices and its not so they lower green house gas emitions it is for their own benifit!! they are getting the $$ from gas taxes.  You have to be blind not to see that.

Our society desperately needs an alternative to oil and the internal combustion engine. Cheap gas just makes the alternatives economically unviable. High gas prices are the best thing that has happened in a long time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please explain to me how we are going to find a better solution with high gas prices? If their was a better alternativ elike clean gas than yes make clena gas cheap and raise the price but unfortunatly thast nto available yet. If the government wanted to help out they would lower the price of electric powered cars and hybrid engine cars but they arnt are they? which proves to me anyway that the government doesnt care at all.

[Black Dog]

Well I don;t know about you or anybody else in this forum but when I want to go visit a sick grandmother, Get groceries, get on time to my meetings for my job or just have to be on time somwhere I don't want to stand outside waiting for the bus to arrive on its own time to pick me up. I want to be able to get my self their don;t you?

It's not without inconvenience. But overall, I get along just fine without a car (and save a lot of money in the process).

Its all just greed the government wont drop gas prices and its not so they lower green house gas emitions it is for their own benifit!! they are getting the $$ from gas taxes. You have to be blind not to see that.

The government doesn't control gas prices. The oil companies and cartels do. High gas prices are an example of the basic principles of the market in action: demand is rising, supply is shrinking so price is increasing. But liek any other product, you can simply choose to not buy the product. That is a difficult thing, given that our society has been designed around the caer, but I think its a good time as any for us all to wean ourselves off our addiction to petrol.

[canadian_conservative]

The government doesn't control gas prices. The oil companies and cartels do. High gas prices are an example of the basic principles of the market in action: demand is rising, supply is shrinking so price is increasing. But liek any other product, you can simply choose to not buy the product. That is a difficult thing, given that our society has been designed around the caer, but I think its a good time as any for us all to wean ourselves off our addiction to petrol.

Yes I know but the government can do somthing about it IE make a gas fund put some money towards gas to make ti cheaper.

[Riverwind]

Please explain to me how we are going to find a better solution with high gas prices?  If their was a better alternativ elike clean gas than yes make clena gas cheap and raise the price but unfortunatly thast nto available yet.  If the government wanted to help out they would lower the price of electric powered cars and hybrid engine cars but they arnt are they?

Why would the government intervene when the market place can solve the problem? Let the price of gas rise and let capitalism do its wonderous magic.

[Black Dog]

Yes I know but the government can do somthing about it IE make a gas fund put some money towards gas to make ti cheaper.

That's not a particularily conservative attitude.

Like Sparhawk said: the market is just doing its thing.

[Toro]

Why do we want the government to lower energy costs? If you want the government to offset the effects, give people and corporations a tax cut. It has the same effect. Plus, if you're a Leftie Environmentalist, you want the price to go sky-high because it will mean less oil demand and will spur research in alternative energy sources.

Oil is climbing. Its been going straight up the past two weeks. Its going to go higher. We may be reaching a near-term blow-off top, or we may be marching towards $80.

[August1991]

Well I don;t know about you or anybody else in this forum but when I want to go visit a sick grandmother, Get groceries, get on time to my meetings for my job or just have to be on time somwhere I don't want to stand outside waiting for the bus to arrive on its own time to pick me up. I want to be able to get my self their don;t you?

Reading through this thread, I get the impression some people view the question in black and white terms: drive a car or take transit. That's not the case.

It is always possible to reduce driving. Some trips are more urgent than others. Some trips can be combined. Over time, people will choose to live more closely to where they work.

These decisions are costly and different people will decide differently how to do this. It's not black and white.

[Black Dog]

These decisions are costly and different people will decide differently how to do this. It's not black and white.

No kiddin'? I can't wait for your next pearl of wisdom: "there are two sides to every story" perhaps? Or how about "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"?

Sorry, but really: I don't think this discussion is as black and white as you suggest.

[canadian_conservative]

That's not a particularily conservative attitude.

I have my mixed feelings. I just think that on contrary to your belief that the Government can do somthing about it lower the gas tax hell abolish it. It really sickens me because today in my city the gas price just raised up to a $1.05 a litre I mean comon and its not going to drop anytime soon. We are going to eventually be like some countries that are currently buying gas for 3-5 dollars a litre US.

Its just like oil to I dont mean to go off topic but the reason oil is rising is because we are buying it from Middle Eastern COuntries where they are killing eachother I am not catagorizing all middle Eastern COuntries into this but most of them are un civilized still, because evertime they over throw one of their leaders the cost of oil goes up because the country is plundered in Anarchy and is un stable.

I hate to jump on the band wagon to soon but I think its time to find another alternative to Fossil Fuels, oil and gas.

[geoffrey]

Why do we want the government to lower energy costs?  If you want the government to offset the effects, give people and corporations a tax cut.  It has the same effect.  Plus, if you're a Leftie Environmentalist, you want the price to go sky-high because it will mean less oil demand and will spur research in alternative energy sources.

Oil is climbing.  Its been going straight up the past two weeks.  Its going to go higher.  We may be reaching a near-term blow-off top, or we may be marching towards $80.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Won't happen, oil prices are already over-inflated. The cost of oil is way beyond its worth, and if you look at options and futures prices, this is reflected by those that actually understand how markets work. I believe someone posted earlier in this forum or thread a link to some futures prices for oil and its in a decline. Now if you've taken any finance, or have an understanding for it, you'd see that a future price per share is generally higher than the projected commodity price at the time for which the future is purchased. Its sort of your gas price for the winter if you lock in. You buy higher than it might be, just in case it may go higher, even though it never really does. I've confused myself with this, but really, it is sound business. Otherwise it simply isn't a sound investment. So oil prices are going down regardless.

Anyways, back towards the topic of if the government should do something or not, there really shouldn't be much of a debate. For the first time in many years, we've been given the opportunity to give us a major trade advantage over the rest of North America and perhaps the world. With our transportation costs 50% lower than the states, we'd increase the profitability of our businesses. This would in turn attract many American companies across the border, especially resource companies and manufacturers.

The tax money is ridiculous, its nothing compared to royalties and thsoe royalties are just piling up right now, with both the Feds and the oil rich Provinces. The corporate taxes payed by the oil companies are a massive source of tax funding for the Feds as well.

It's time to cut the excise tax and GST on gasoline, it is hurting our businesses (especially small business) and we are losing a criticial opportunity to gain a competitive edge over our major competitors in the global market.