Doesn't everyone feel safer now?

[Shady]

there is my source for the 128000 deaths

This is his source ladies and gentlemen:

Jihad Unspun

You must be joking.

[mirror]

Actually Lanclet the British medical journal projected last fall that there were already over 100,000 deaths in Iraq so that figure of 128,000 is probably accurate when you add both civilian and military casualties. Just because it is an Arab website, if that is what it is, does not mean it is not accurate.

[Shady]

Just because it is an Arab website, if that is what it is, does not mean it is not accurate.

It's not just because it might be an Arab website, it's also the fact that it's called Jihad Unspun. That should be a dead give-away that it's nothing close to an impartial source.

I still stand by iraqbodycount.net. Now, I know for some of you Bush haters, you'll be disappointed. I know that for your "cause" the more dead Iraqi's the better, but your numbers just aren't accurate. So please stop inflating the number of casualties for poltical purposes. It's shameful and disgusting.

[mirror]

Just because it is an Arab website, if that is what it is, does not mean it is not accurate.

It's not just because it might be an Arab website, it's also the fact that it's called Jihad Unspun. That should be a dead give-away that it's nothing close to an impartial source.

I still stand by iraqbodycount.net. Now, I know for some of you Bush haters, you'll be disappointed. I know that for your "cause" the more dead Iraqi's the better, but your numbers just aren't accurate. So please stop inflating the number of casualties for poltical purposes. It's shameful and disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What absurd and inappropriate comments. The number of deaths in Iraq combining civilian and military deaths is at 125,000 or more and rising. and for every death there are probably 3-4 people injured. You can run but you can't hide. The number of deaths is staggering.

[kimmy]

http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/art...hive/index.php&

there is my source for the 128000 deaths

Thanks for the link. That seems to be a veeeery credible website.

It's not even an anti-war site, it's a site actively promoting Jihad and glorifying Osama. Forgive me if I doubt the objectivity of their claims.

I guess I should thank you for bringing that to our attention. Reading through that site and some of their partner sites has certainly reinforced my views of these people. I strongly encourage anybody who has any questions about the mentality of the Islamists to visit some of these sites and read about them in their own words.

-k

[mirror]

Western policies are to blame, says Livingstone

Ken Livingstone yesterday blamed western policies for contributing to the spread of the extremist beliefs that inspired the London bombers. The mayor of London highlighted the West's role in the creation of al-Qa'eda by saying: "We created these people. We built them up. We funded them."

His comments coincided with remarks from Muslim extremists that went much further, claiming that ministers were "the real terrorists" and that voters were to blame for the attacks because they returned Tony Blair to power.

Well there you have it folks. Livingstone by-the-way is not some raving religious nut of a suicide bomber, he is the mayor of London. The West of couse contribulted to these suicide bombings. So when the people in the US ask themselves why they were attacked one of the things they can do is look in the miror. Americans need to ask themselves why they reelected Bush for a second term. What a huge mistake that was.

[Shady]

I guess I should thank you for bringing that to our attention. Reading through that site and some of their partner sites has certainly reinforced my views of these people. I strongly encourage anybody who has any questions about the mentality of the Islamists to visit some of these sites and read about them in their own words

I couldn't agree more. It really puts you inside the heads of these insane type people and reflects their true logic and beliefs.

Well there you have it folks. Livingstone by-the-way is not some raving religious nut of a suicide bomber, he is the mayor of London

He may not be the same raving religious nut of a suicide bomber, but he's friends witht them, and invites them to official government meetings.

Ken Livingstone’s Fateful Error

Ken Livingstone’s refusal to acknowledge that he was wrong to welcome the extremist Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi in July 2004 is a demonstration of his disregard to the concerns some of London’s diverse communities.

Livingstone was presented with a 214-page dossier compiled by the LCC, a group comprised of 13 groups such as the Board of Deputies for British Jews, the Hindu Forum of Britain and the gay rights group Outrage! Outlined was evidence to support their opposition to Livingstone’s red carpet treatment to the suicide bombing advocator, women’s rights suppressor, anti-gay adherent of the militant Wuhhabi interpretation of Islam advocated by al-Qaradawi, a “moderate” in Livingstone’s eyes.

The LCC gave evidence in their dossier of some of al-Qaradawi’s venomous remarks and positions. He refused to condemn the beheading of Nicholas Berg by militants in Iraq, described homosexuality as an “abdominal practice” and “a disease” whose offenders should be put to death to “maintain the purity of Islamic society”. The cleric used his authority in Islamic theology to give his seal of approval for suicide bombers in Israel who target Israeli civilians, and gave his support to the actions of the terrorist group Hamas. He condoned practices of female circumcision and okayed domestic abuse but “in no case should he resort to using a stick… that might cause pain or injury”. More recently, Livingstone’s favorite cleric commented, as reported in The Times and the BBC on 11 January, that the victims of the Asian tsunami deserved to die.

Link

That's your pal Ken Livingstone. So you may hold what he says in great regard, however, the majority of Brits think otherwise.

So when the people in the US ask themselves why they were attacked one of the things they can do is look in the miror. Americans need to ask themselves why they reelected Bush for a second term. What a huge mistake that was.

That would make sense if the terrorist attacks weren't being planned while Bill Clinton was President. Not to mention several terrorist attacks occuring during his Presidency. You totally fail to address the real root causes of terrorism.

[mirror]

Anti-terror team targets imam

A counter-terrorism team of police and other national security experts is investigating a radical Muslim cleric in Vancouver who has been known to promote Islamic holy war against Jews and other non-Muslim people.

Sheik Younus Kathrada, a cleric at the Dar al-Madinah mosque on Fraser Street, is being investigated by the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team, INSET, which collects intelligence on "targets that are a threat to national security," according to the RCMP website.

Now this is something that I agree with and if this cleric is really inciting violence against others we should turf him out of Canada or if we can't do that, send him to jail for a long time and shut down his Mosque. Enough is enough and we need to show all people that violence is not acceptable in Canada. We need to act firmly and quickly though.

[Black Dog]

By your logic, the best course of action for minimizing American responsiblility for deaths in Iraq would have been for them to pull out immediately after major combat operations had ceased, leaving the Iraqis to fend for themselves.

Perhaps, if ducking responsibility was the objective (even if teh Bush administration has raised ducking responsibility to an art form). Of course, another way to look at it is if they wanted to avoid responsibility for civilians deaths they could have fulfilled their responsibilities as an occupying force. Heck: they could have even had a plan for administering Iarq afterwards. But I suppose to right wingers, that's just crazy talk. After all, everything in Iraq is just peachy.

I still stand by iraqbodycount.net. Now, I know for some of you Bush haters, you'll be disappointed. I know that for your "cause" the more dead Iraqi's the better, but your numbers just aren't accurate. So please stop inflating the number of casualties for poltical purposes. It's shameful and disgusting

Again IBC has done yeoman's work (and, as an aside, I find it hilarious to see right-wingers boosting IBC), but their methodology limits the accuracy of their numbers. Again:

Our methodology requires that specific deaths attributed to US-led military actions are carried in at least two reports from our approved sources.

[mirror]

'No threat' ... then three weeks later bombers struck

The report also directly linked terrorist-related activity in Britain with the ongoing violence in Iraq - something that the government insisted is incorrect.The report also throws into doubt the vigorous denials by Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, and Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, that the Iraq war had increased the risk of terrorist attacks in Britain.

Both men flatly rejected just such an allegation in an independent think-tank report published on Monday.

But the JTAC report reached a conclusion, starkly at odds with the government's position: "Events in Iraq are continuing to act as motivation and a focus of a range of terrorist related activity in the UK," it said.

The government and the intelligence services have also failed to explain why it was that Mohammad Sidique Khan - now thought to be the suicide gang's ringleader - was not considered to pose a threat despite being known to the security services in connection with a previous bomb plot.

It has emerged that three of the bombers - Khan, Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain - spent extended periods in Pakistan before the attacks, apparently receiving training from terrorist groups associated with al-Qaeda.

And the assessment in the JTAC report that Britain was not at risk of an attack - coupled with Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair's assertion in a radio interview 90 minutes before the first bombs that his force was regarded as the "envy of the policing world in relation to counter-terrorism" - will be a source of fresh embarrassment for those involved.

The report, which was compiled three weeks before the bombings and was apparently leaked by a foreign intelligence service, was the basis for the downgrading of the national threat level.

The New York Times newspaper, which published the leaked report, quoted one senior British official as saying there was a sharp disagreement among officials about whether the intelligence justified lowering the threat level. "There was not an easy consensus," he said.

Perhaps we can put this baby to rest now as it is so painfully obvious that the UK presence in Iraq contributed to the London attacks. It is pitiful to see adults such as Tony Blair lie about this issue to his people, but I suppose he has no choice, otherwise he might as well resign for his disasterous error in judgment supported the US going into Iraq. And then we wonder why more and more people tune out of politcis and the entire electoral process.

What is most discouraging is that Blair is head of the Labour Party not the Coonservative Party where he belongs, so there are no other progressive forces to oppose him politically except from within Labour's circles. What a friggin mess the UK is in politically.

[newbie]

I still stand by iraqbodycount.net

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, given the lead line on the webpage:

“We don’t do body counts”

General Tommy Franks, US Central Command

[Guest eureka]

I thought it was pretty well established in the previous discussion of the deaths in Iraq that the number of 100,000 killed was no exaggeration. It was, as Black Dog implied, an extrapolation from the provable deaths.

That figure also understates greatly the numbers of deaths due to the "war." Before the war, the needless deaths of Iraqi children under five was around 50,000 annually. These were a consequence of the oil embargo and wre accepted as accurate even by the America government. AS Madeline Albright said; 500,000 such deaths were an acceptable price.

Since the invasion, the infrastructure in Iraq has deteriorated; the health service has almost disappeared; malnutrition is rampant to a degree never known before the Gulf War. Those infant deaths alone have certainly increased far beyond the 50,000 rate. I have never seen an estimate of the numbers of older children and adults. Presumably, as Arabs, they are not to trouble us.

A conclusion might well be that the deaths consequent to the "war' might well be somewhere between 250,000 and 500,000.

[mirror]

Sounds reasonable and probaly in the ball park to me.

Terror investigators hunting the London bombing mastermind are to question a suspected Al Qaeda planner held in Pakistan.

British-born Haroon Rashid Aswad was seized at a religious school with a suicide bomb belt, explosives and GBP 13,000 in cash.

Security sources in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, claim he had up to 20 telephone conversations with London bombers Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer. One of these is believed to have been just hours before the blasts.

The UK's DAILY MAIL reports on Thursday: Security sources say he trained at an Afghan camp which was visited by Osama Bin Laden and that he is linked to two of Bin Laden's planners and an Al Qaeda suspect held in America.

U.S. investigators have been told that Aswad attended the Khalden camp in Afghanistan, favoured by foreign terror trainees. British shoe bomber Richard Reid is among those who attended the camp and it has been reported that London bomber Khan also went there.

Pakistan seems to be a real hotbed for these suckers. I wonder what kind of effect this is going to have on Musharif's ability to govern his country. My guess is that they have narrowed bin Laden's location down to some area in Afaghanstan near the Pakistan border. I wonder if that is where our 2,000 additional Canadian troops are going to be deployed. It might not be a good idea if one's own country's troops captured bin Laden. Imagine the temptation for his followers to retaliate.

[cybercoma]

Just because it is an Arab website, if that is what it is, does not mean it is not accurate.

It's not just because it might be an Arab website, it's also the fact that it's called Jihad Unspun. That should be a dead give-away that it's nothing close to an impartial source.

I still stand by iraqbodycount.net. Now, I know for some of you Bush haters, you'll be disappointed. I know that for your "cause" the more dead Iraqi's the better, but your numbers just aren't accurate. So please stop inflating the number of casualties for poltical purposes. It's shameful and disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What absurd and inappropriate comments. The number of deaths in Iraq combining civilian and military deaths is at 125,000 or more and rising. and for every death there are probably 3-4 people injured. You can run but you can't hide. The number of deaths is staggering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the link, but I'm going to take Iraq Body Count as a legit site, considering the creator stated his purpose on TV. The United States government refuses to take body counts, so he wanted to create this site to preserve the data. He doesn't want to see the numbers skewed in the future when the information gets lost because the government isn't taking notes.

So, they're somewhat slanted against the US government, but not enough to support Osama Bin Laden.

[cybercoma]

Western policies are to blame, says Livingstone

Ken Livingstone yesterday blamed western policies for contributing to the spread of the extremist beliefs that inspired the London bombers. The mayor of London highlighted the West's role in the creation of al-Qa'eda by saying: "We created these people. We built them up. We funded them."

His comments coincided with remarks from Muslim extremists that went much further, claiming that ministers were "the real terrorists" and that voters were to blame for the attacks because they returned Tony Blair to power.

Well there you have it folks. Livingstone by-the-way is not some raving religious nut of a suicide bomber, he is the mayor of London. The West of couse contribulted to these suicide bombings. So when the people in the US ask themselves why they were attacked one of the things they can do is look in the miror. Americans need to ask themselves why they reelected Bush for a second term. What a huge mistake that was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

let me understand this, he's the mayor of london so somehow he's an expert on the subject?

The United States equipped these guys in another form to resist the invasion of the USSR into Afghanistan. Taking that training and information and killing innocent civilians is NOT what the United States had them do.

Blaming the United States for suicide bombers because they gave them money, training and funding some 25 years ago is akin to blaming someone's driving instructor when that student kills someone drinking and driving.

[cybercoma]

Man, it really disgusts me that some of you can sit here and make excuses for people who intentionally murder civilians as part of their psychotic belief system.

[mirror]

That is the most ridiculous analogy I have ever seen here at mapleleafweb:

What Livingstone did say however is this:

Today, the Mayor condemned all suicide bombings but suggested that the "double standards" exhibited in Western foreign policy towards the Middle East had given rise to enormous feelings of antipathy among Islamic extremists.

"I think the particular problem we have at the moment is that in the 1980s the Americans recruited and trained Osama bin Laden, taught him how to kill, to make bombs and sent him off to kill the Russians in Afghanistan and they didn’t give any thought to the fact that once he had done that, he might turn on his creators," he said.

"I have not the slightest doubt that, if at the end of the First World War we had done what we promised the Arabs, which was to let them be free and have their own governments, and kept out of Arab affairs, and just bought their oil, rather than feeling we had to control the flow of oil, I suspect this wouldn’t have arisen.

[Guest eureka]

Suicide bombers, in general, do not "kill" because of their belief systems. The root of suicide bombings is largely nationalism not religion.

Suicide bombings, wherever they occur - and Iraq is not yet the principal arena - are usually in the cause of independence or in the cause of removing an occupier.

[cybercoma]

Suicide bombers, in general, do not "kill" because of their belief systems. The root of suicide bombings is largely nationalism not religion.

Suicide bombings, wherever they occur - and Iraq is not yet the principal arena - are usually in the cause of independence or in the cause of removing an occupier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say religion, I said their beliefs which are generally politically motivated (as you said) and perverted by people who abuse religion using it as a political tool.

Regardless of their "reasons" it is completely unacceptable and negotiations shouldn't even be humoured with those who would murder innocent civilians to get their points across.

[mirror]

Osama bin Laden's 'ambassador' faces deportation after deal

So do you think this guy should be deported? I'm afraid I am going to have to side with Amnesty International on this one and say no. Part of my reasoning is based on what happened to Canadian Mahar Arar when he was deported to Syria.

[mirror]

Do you agree with London's mayor that the West has contributed to the growth of Islamic extremism? 

Yes      69%  17492 votes 

No      31%  7949 votes

 

Total: 25441 votes

So, if we have contributed to its growth, what can we do to contribute to reducing it? Well for one thing, although it has nothing to do with Canada, we could encourage the Coalition of the Willing, what an absurd name, to pull out of Iraq which is on the verge of civil war anyways. Secondly perhaps Canada should consider pulling out of Afghanastan. What are we doing there? Thirdly we need to make the effort to get to know the Muslim people in our respective communities, and learn what it takes to be friends with them. Fourth we need to ensure there really is equal opportunity for everyone in Canada, including Muslims. Fifth we need to listen more to people like Livingstone who know better than most what is causing the attacks.

[mirror]

Two weeks ago today Londoners were attacked by 4 bombs in their public transportation system. Today their public transportation system was attacked again. It is time for the UK to pull out of Iraq:

British Police Evacuate 3 Subway Stations After Explosions

[Black Dog]

Man, it really disgusts me that some of you can sit here and make excuses for people who intentionally murder civilians as part of their psychotic belief system.

It always amazes me that some people can get in such a righteous tizzy over people's attempts to tie cause (anger over Anglo-American foreign policy) with effect (terrorist attacks), yet bend over backwards like a circus freak to excuse civilian deaths that occur as a result of the conduct of the war on terrror.

[cybercoma]

Man, it really disgusts me that some of you can sit here and make excuses for people who intentionally murder civilians as part of their psychotic belief system.

It always amazes me that some people can get in such a righteous tizzy over people's attempts to tie cause (anger over Anglo-American foreign policy) with effect (terrorist attacks), yet bend over backwards like a circus freak to excuse civilian deaths that occur as a result of the conduct of the war on terrror.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a huge difference between blowing yourself up on a bus during rush hour traffic and dropping bombs on military targets that unfortunately are next to civilians. The first is intentionally trying to murder innocent civilians, the second is collateral damage that is sadly a part of war and is unavoidable. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

[cybercoma]

Two weeks ago today Londoners were attacked by 4 bombs in their public transportation system. Today their public transportation system was attacked again. It is time for the UK to pull out of Iraq:

British Police Evacuate 3 Subway Stations After Explosions

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you understand what would happen to Iraq if they just "pulled out" as you're suggesting? This civil war would consume the country and religious fanatics would take over the government enslaving the people again.

Giving in to the demands of people who would target and murder innocent civilians is a terrible idea.