Tories, Gays, BQ

[August1991]

I'll start a thread on this because it seems that Harper and the Tories are adopting a specific and deliberate strategy. They appear to be appealing to a silent majority of Canadians, federalists who feel ignored.

Harper is distancing himself from the BQ and Harper is also making it plain that he will not be cowed by the Toronto media establishment.

Stephen Harper says any gay marriage law will be stamped with illegitimacy because it will owe its passage to Quebec separatists.

...

"Because it's being passed with the support of the Bloc, I think it will lack legitimacy with most Canadians," Harper told CBC Newsworld.

...

Conservative justice critic Vic Toews went further.

"The federalist MPs in Canada, the majority of them, would oppose (gay marriage) on a free vote. So what we are seeing now is simply an agreement by this government with the separatist Bloc -- who have no long-term interest in staying in Canada."

National Post

Toronto has a gay parade and Harper deliberately goes to Toronto the same weekend but doesn't particiopate in the parade.

Michael Leshner predicted the bill would become law despite efforts by federal Conservative Leader Stephen Harper to derail it.

"We've got the chief, the mayor, just look around," Leshner said while attending Sunday's parade.

"The future is this, the past is Stephen Harper. What could he attract in Toronto?"

A number of municipal, provincial and federal politicians took part in the parade, but not Harper.

He was in suburban Toronto, where he spoke out against same-sex marriage while addressing a Muslim religious convention.

Globe & Mail

Among the many officials who took part in the parade was Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair, who donned his uniform to become the city's first top cop to participate.

Several politicians were also on hand, but Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, who is visiting the Toronto area, did not attend the festivities.

CBC

[Sir Chauncy]

Several politicians were also on hand, but Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, who is visiting the Toronto area, did not attend the festivities.

_________________

A good thing too. Those gays have a hard enough time with associating with the likes of Harper.

Owl

[Argus]

I'll start a thread on this because it seems that Harper and the Tories are adopting a specific and deliberate strategy.  They appear to be appealing to a silent majority of Canadians, federalists who feel ignored. 

I think it's fair for him to point out that there is only a majority in support of gay marriage because of an overwhelming majority in Quebec. Elminate Quebec and most Canadians don't want same sex marriage.

And why are Quebecers so much in favour of same sex marriage? Largely because Quebecers don't value marriage. Their approval, like that of many Canadins is of the "Sure, hey, why not" variety.

That being said, same-sex marriage is largely being driven by the Toronto media, which has inundated the country with gay friendly images and information since this first became a topic of discussion.

[Technocrat]

yes yes argus... lets have more conservative dribble shall we?

"liberal bias media... blah blah blah."

"Damn those quebecers their not really Canadians anyway."

"Toronto sux... I hate Toronto... those bastages."

SSM is a dead issue, its going to pass no matter how much whining and bitching there is. I think I have heard every argument against SSM and none of the hold up to the bullshit test.

[Argus]

yes yes argus... lets have more conservative dribble shall we?

"liberal bias media... blah blah blah."

"Damn those quebecers their not really Canadians anyway."

"Toronto sux... I hate Toronto... those bastages." 

SSM is a dead issue, its going to pass no matter how much whining and bitching there is.  I think I have heard every argument against SSM and none of the hold up to the bullshit test.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I accept your expertise on bullshit, but i'd suggest your testing procedures are probably flawed. It must be quite difficult for you to test for external sources of excrement with your head up your ass.

[August1991]

I suspect that the BQ's surprise decision to support extending Parliament (to get C-38 through) has something to do with this Tory startegy.

In addition, the Tories are calculating that same sex marriage and the BQ are not popular in English Canada and among federalists in Quebec. The Tories are making it plain who they want to speak for - they are not seeking the nationalist vote in Quebec nor the trendy, fad-oriented urban voters of English Canada.

While the media is talking alot about SSM, in fact polls show that the population is split and a majority outside Quebec favours keeping the traditional definition of marriage. Appearing to be too friendly with the BQ cost the Tories support in English Canada.

I'll give him credit, Harper is thinking big. Let's see how this strategy plays out.

[Littlefinger]

I presume then that if the budget had been defeated, Harper would have argued that its defeat had no legitimacy because Bloc votes are illegitimate and the majority of Canadians outside Quebec didn't want an election?

[Black Dog]

I think it's fair for him to point out that there is only a majority in support of gay marriage because of an overwhelming majority in Quebec. Elminate Quebec and most Canadians don't want same sex marriage.

And why are Quebecers so much in favour of same sex marriage? Largely because Quebecers don't value marriage. Their approval, like that of many Canadins is of the "Sure, hey, why not" variety.

That being said, same-sex marriage is largely being driven by the Toronto media, which has inundated the country with gay friendly images and information since this first became a topic of discussion.

Eliminate Quebec and support for SSM still enjoys a majority of support in Ontario, BC, and Atlantic Canada. What does that leave us with? The majority of Canadians in the majority of the most populous regions support SSM.

I've also always found it interesting that oppossition is strongest among the aged and the less-educated.

[Riverwind]

I'll start a thread on this because it seems that Harper and the Tories are adopting a specific and deliberate strategy.  They appear to be appealing to a silent majority of Canadians, federalists who feel ignored.

There may be a silent majority of English Canadians who feel uncomfortable with SSM, however, French Canadians are part of the country too which means that the SSM has the support of majority of Canadians.

This strategy is possiblely the dumbest thing Harper could do because it makes it so much easier for the Liberals to paint him as red-neck, wannabe Bush. It also drives the final stake in I my hope that the CPC could rebuild the Mulroney coilition between Quebec nationalists and western conservatives.

I don't think this move represents any grand strategy by Harper - rather it is just a sign the Harper is beholden to the religious/social conservatives that form a minority of the CPC. Today it is SSM, tomorrow it will be abortion rights, evolution and school prayer.

On the whole, it is a sad day for Canada.

[Cartman]

I'll give him credit, Harper is thinking big. Let's see how this strategy plays out.

Why on earth would you give Harper any credit? IMO this is one dog that does alot of barking and never bites. As long as he is ineffective at restraining his own members from openly referring to other MP's as whores, dipsticks and Nazi's etc. etc., he may as well forget about trying to become PM. It is this kind of barbaric "Trailer Park Boys" crap that Canadians reject and Conservatives cannot resist. The inability to stop these moronic comments in the context of Canadians already being leery about their socially conservative agenda, his inexplicable stance on the Grewal tapes (which is not over BTW), the offer to exchange budget votes for delays on SSM and the Liberals little dance on procedure make him look weak, disorganized and too power hungry. We should not forget that the Stronach affair combined with MacKay's pathetic and somber talk to the media made them look really bad. Right now, the Conservatives do not come across as a government in waiting. Their only hope is that the Liberals completely implode with Gomery and Harper gets lucky in a debate (which should not be hard considering he will be debating Martin).

Forget about blaming the communist media that brainwashes everyone, forget about Liberals profound yet unique ability to generate fear amongst delicate Canadians, or people just not really knowing Harper. Canadians are not tricked by the media, the Liberals run good campaigns (not evil genius ones) and Canadians know enough about Harper. They simply reject the Conservative Party as it is currently constituted. The last charismatic and influential leader the right had was Preston Manning and Harper is no Manning.

[Edited to remove a sarcastic yet very funny slight against some Conservatives]

[I miss Reagan]

Jeez Cartman, I think this rain is affecting your mood. No matter who the Conservatives have as leader, he will be vilified by the media. But the Liberals do run better campaigns. They are dirty with their accuasations of hidden agenda's and scare tactics of "that's not my Canada" BS about abortion etc. The difference is the media doesn't call the Libs on it but watch out if a conservative MP mutters dipstick and all of a sudden the CPC is front page news as racist, chauvanistic etc.

Right now the best thing Harper could do is create and distribute a "Conservative Thesaurus of Acceptable Terms to Express Outrage" which is devoid of any sex/ethnic referents. That way when they are approached by the media and want to call someone say, an "f'n ho", they can stop, look it up in the thesaurus and say "unprofessional potentially dishonest Member of Parliament" instead.

Oh come on.

[Cartman]

Yeah, I am going nuts with all this rain. I removed the statement as it was over the top. But, there must be many Conservatives who are frustrated when these statements are made because, I will agree to an extent, that the Cons. are watched more carefully than are the Liberals. The same goes for the NDP which must also walk on water. This comes with being the Official Opposition I suspect.

The Conservatives do have considerable problems though and I fail to see why Harper does not draw upon what appears to be his greatest strength. That is, focus on ways to expand the growth of the economy while carefully cutting some programs like a surgeon. Nobody likes bureaucratic growth. If an economic plan were clearly presented (something like the Redbook plan) and it was made clear that he would prioritize social program funding, they would have a much greater chance of winning. It is always the kooks that set the media agenda and he cannot stop the media.

Look, few people are actually voting FOR the Liberals. Many are simply voting against the Conservatives. Harper needs to muffle the renegades, look patient and professional, and present a balanced plan of growth and efficiency for the entire nation. The current approach of chest beating does not work for him.

[I miss Reagan]

Yeah, I am going nuts with all this rain. I removed the statement as it was over the top. But, there must be many Conservatives who are frustrated when these statements are made because, I will agree to an extent, that the Cons. are watched more carefully than are the Liberals. The same goes for the NDP which must also walk on water. This comes with being the Official Opposition I suspect.

Yes it's quite deflating when I turn on the news and see some unknown Conservative MP spouting off about how homosexuality is evil, for example. Fine if they believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but they must be stupid to actually publically express this. I often wonder how the CPC can be so ignorant with respect to strategic planing. Why, in the last days of the last election campaign, would Harper come back to Alberta and make statements along the lines of: finally Alberta will be running the county, is beyond me. Harper's recent comments about the Bloc are pretty hypocritical as well. Nevertheless, the media sharks take advantage of the blood in the water and overplay any statement deemed by them to be politically incorrect.

[TheHonorableJordanDent]

I think this is more of a desperation move, after all he sided with the Bloc to try to bring the government down, so it seems he supports their legitimacy as long as they support what he likes. He just hates this legislation so much at its core he's grasping at straws.

As for him not attending the Gay Pride parade I don't blame him, I imagine he would have been swarmed if he went anywhere near it. He obviously thinks homosexuality is an abomination, and he He and most of his caucus are the most anti gay people I've ever seen in Canada.

[Argus]

I've also always found it interesting that oppossition is strongest among the aged and the less-educated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opposition is strongest among those who value marriage. Support is strongest among those who least value marriage. What does THAT tell you?

Furthermore, most opposition is of the "Hell no!" variety while most support is of the "Oh I suppose, why not" varlety.

[Black Dog]

Opposition is strongest among those who value marriage. Support is strongest among those who least value marriage. What does THAT tell you?

I'm pointing out a data point which is echoed in numerous opinion polls on the subject. Where are you deriving your information that the 55+ crowd values marriage more than the 18-34 crowd?

Furthermore, most opposition is of the "Hell no!" variety while most support is of the "Oh I suppose, why not" varlety.

I would speculate that this indicates supporters of SSM have a generally more live and let live attitude towards individual rights (that is: "no harm, no foul") where as the No side is driven by ideology.

[August1991]

Eliminate Quebec and support for SSM still enjoys a majority of support in Ontario, BC, and Atlantic Canada. What does that leave us with? The majority of Canadians in the majority of the most populous regions support SSM.

Do you have evidence of that BD? The polls I have seen show that, after much media support, a majority of people outside Quebec still do not support same sex marriage.

Why on earth would you give Harper any credit? IMO this is one dog that does alot of barking and never bites. As long as he is ineffective at restraining his own members from openly referring to other MP's as whores, dipsticks and Nazi's etc. etc., he may as well forget about trying to become PM. It is this kind of barbaric "Trailer Park Boys" crap that Canadians reject and Conservatives cannot resist.

Cartman, I will use your post as an example. I hope you won't take this personally.

Many Canadians - a majority perhaps and certainly a majority outside Quebec - do not support SSM. In addition, many Canadians - even in French Quebec - object to separatists. The Tories are saying that a policy unpopular in Canada is being passed because of separatists. Objectively speaking, the Tories are right.

But Cartman, let me look at this differently. I sense that you are appalled that someone is disagreeing with the kind of Canada you want to see: A Canada with gay-marriage, generous government spending and tolerance of separatists. Many, many Canadians don't see Canada the way you do. But these Canadians have been cowed into silence by the CBC and political correctness.

The Tories are saying that they are going to speak for these people. (You'll note carefully where Harper went when he didn't go to the gay parade in Toronto.)

If this Tory strategy is successful - and we have to see how it plays out, you and others on the Left will call it a "backlash". And you will say that Harper is being "divisive". On the contrary, I would say the initial divisiveness and provokation started with gay marriage, if not before. Many Canadians are tired of being accused of being bigots, or being backward, simply for believing what they think is right - believing what is the policy of such countries as Norway, Denmark, teh UK and France. There is an intolerance to this "progressive" agenda which has gone beyond tiresome.

Cartman, this issue of gay marriage currently dividing Canadians is relatively minor. If you are astonished that "your Canada" is at variance with the "Canada" imagined by other Canadians, then I think you are in for a few more shocks. In my experience, English Canadians - left wing more than others - have been denying many obvious problems within the country. The BQ wants to change the way Canada works.

I frankly think the most important value to be respected in all this is that we remain civil - we respect each other. Whether Canada has gay marriage or not, whether Quebec is a province or not, and whether Alberta continues to fork over tons of cash or not, the more important value is that we go about solving our differences in a civilised way - with respect.

[Black Dog]

Do you have evidence of that BD? The polls I have seen show that, after much media support, a majority of people outside Quebec do not support same sex marriage.

Environics poll December 14, 2004 to January 5, 2005.

Here.

Strong in BC. Fairly strong in Ontario. Together, these provinces contain 41 per cent of the population. Add in Quebec 66 per cent of Canadians live in provinces where gay marriage enjoys its highest levels of support (and incidentally, where gay marriage is legal). Other interesting demographic facts: support for SM is highest in urban areas, lowest in rural ones. Levels of support also increase as income and education levels go up and age (as I mentioned earlier) goes down.

Take that as you will.

[August1991]

This strategy is possiblely the dumbest thing Harper could do because it makes it so much easier for the Liberals to paint him as red-neck, wannabe Bush. It also drives the final stake in I my hope that the CPC could rebuild the Mulroney coilition between Quebec nationalists and western conservatives.

Sparhawk, I hate to break it to you but such a coalition was impossible since the rejection of Meech Lake. The federal Liberals put the nail in the coffin for any coalition, nationalist or otherwise, for the foreseeable future. As Chantal Hebert noted, what would happen if we had a real crisis right now - a conscription crisis or an air traffic controllers strike?

Environics poll December 14, 2004 to January 5, 2005.

One poll without polling data won't cut it, BD. I want to see consistent numbers with sizeable samples.

[Black Dog]

One poll without polling data won't cut it, BD. I want to see consistent numbers with sizeable samples.

These results are taken from an Environics survey of 2,021 Canadians 18 and older, conducted in English and French between December 14, 2004 and January 5, 2005. On a national basis, these results are accurate to within +/-2.2 percent, in 95 out of 100 samples. The survey question was as follows:

This Ipsos Reid poll establishes trends seen in the Environics poll above.

[Riverwind]

This strategy is possiblely the dumbest thing Harper could do because it makes it so much easier for the Liberals to paint him as red-neck, wannabe Bush. It also drives the final stake in I my hope that the CPC could rebuild the Mulroney coilition between Quebec nationalists and western conservatives.

Sparhawk, I hate to break it to you but such a coalition was impossible since the rejection of Meech Lake. The federal Liberals put the nail in the coffin for any coalition, nationalist or otherwise, for the foreseeable future.

Nothing is impossible in the world of politics. Two years ago the BQ was on its way out in the face of the Martin 'steamroller' and before the sponsership scandal broke. Now they are looking at a near sweep of Quebec. The CPC could have positioned itself as a federalist alternative to the BQ in franophone Quebec where there are lot of soft nationalists. They have clearly given up on Quebec and most of urban Canada. There only hope of winning gov't now is if vote splitting between the NDP and the Liberals in suburban areas gives them enough seats for a minority.

BTW: Poll in the Vancouver Sun today: Libs 41%, NDP 26%, CPC 22%.

Sort of makes the CPC look less and less like a 'Western' party and more like an Alberta/rural party.

[JerrySeinfeld]

This strategy is possiblely the dumbest thing Harper could do because it makes it so much easier for the Liberals to paint him as red-neck, wannabe Bush. It also drives the final stake in I my hope that the CPC could rebuild the Mulroney coilition between Quebec nationalists and western conservatives.

Sparhawk, I hate to break it to you but such a coalition was impossible since the rejection of Meech Lake. The federal Liberals put the nail in the coffin for any coalition, nationalist or otherwise, for the foreseeable future.

Nothing is impossible in the world of politics. Two years ago the BQ was on its way out in the face of the Martin 'steamroller' and before the sponsership scandal broke. Now they are looking at a near sweep of Quebec. The CPC could have positioned itself as a federalist alternative to the BQ in franophone Quebec where there are lot of soft nationalists. They have clearly given up on Quebec and most of urban Canada. There only hope of winning gov't now is if vote splitting between the NDP and the Liberals in suburban areas gives them enough seats for a minority.

BTW: Poll in the Vancouver Sun today: Libs 41%, NDP 26%, CPC 22%.

Sort of makes the CPC look less and less like a 'Western' party and more like an Alberta/rural party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ugh! what an ugly poll.

Canadians: prepare for higher taxes, increased spending and lots and lots of "government pet projects". This is getting ugly.

What next? An NDP gov? UGH!

[Argus]

Do you have evidence of that BD? The polls I have seen show that, after much media support, a majority of people outside Quebec do not support same sex marriage.

Environics poll December 14, 2004 to January 5, 2005.

Here.

Strong in BC. Fairly strong in Ontario. Together, these provinces contain 41 per cent of the population. Add in Quebec 66 per cent of Canadians live in provinces where gay marriage enjoys its highest levels of support (and incidentally, where gay marriage is legal). Other interesting demographic facts: support for SM is highest in urban areas, lowest in rural ones. Levels of support also increase as income and education levels go up and age (as I mentioned earlier) goes down.

Take that as you will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with this. Every poll has consistently showed that pro and cons are more or less evenly split, and that those who are pro gay marriage are not particularly enthusiastic about their support in comparison to those opposed.

Do you think urban dwellers are somehow more sophisticated than rural residents? In this day and age? Do you have any idea how complex the machinery and computers are for forestry operations and farms nowadays? Ever heard of satellite TV? The Internet? This is not an age when urban residents are inbred hillbillies who can't afford to clothe their kids. Most farmers are millionaires, if only in land value.

As for education, uhm, so what? This is once again, not the nineteenth century. Someone with a degree in computer engineering isn't neccesarily one damn bit more sophisticated or intelligent or knowledgeable about everyday issues than a high school dropout working as a bartender.

I know back in the day, university grads were considered to be far more sophisticated. But that was because they almost universally came from the upper classes and were raised in the best schools, with private tutors, and in a culture of privilege and style (esp compared to the lower classes). They could recite Chaucer, discuss Egyptian pottery and were knowledgeable about wines, politics and history (or thought they were). This simply no longer holds true. Today's universities, for the most part, are trade schools who teach youth eager to learn only about their trade so they can rush out and get a decent job.

As for the age thing, hey, seniors are always conservatives and traditionalists in every generation and youth are always more flexible in their thinking. Then again, seniors tend to be wiser and more thoughtful, and youth tend to lack life experience and the ability to think much beyond their own immediate needs and wants.

I've heard people suggest that as soon as the current seniors die off all the conservative thinkers will be gone. That's so patently ridiculous that you have to shake your head. Who were the wild rebels in the sixties? The long haired hippies of the free love and drugged out counter culture? Why, the staid, solid, conservative boomers of today eying their RRSPs and mutual funds and glaring at today's youth with their awful clothes, slutty behaviour and awful music.

[cybercoma]

I've also always found it interesting that oppossition is strongest among the aged and the less-educated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bullshit. You have absolutely no way to backup this garbage.

[cybercoma]

I think this is more of a desperation move, after all he sided with the Bloc to try to bring the government down, so it seems he supports their legitimacy as long as they support what he likes. He just hates this legislation so much at its core he's grasping at straws.

As for him not attending the Gay Pride parade I don't blame him, I imagine he would have been swarmed if he went anywhere near it. He obviously thinks homosexuality is an abomination, and he He and most of his caucus are the most anti gay people I've ever seen in Canada.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, completely untrue. You Conservative bashers really have a knack for phoenetic farting (aka talking out your ass). Stephen Harper himself, as well as many Conservative MPs, are supporters of same-sex equality and benefits. What they're against is changing the definition of marriage, an act that will alienate Canadians who have deep familial and religious values.