Macron and Trudeau gang up on Trump

[DogOnPorch]

37 minutes ago, cannuck said:

It is not the invasions that make me more than a little bit testy about froggy - it was the collaborators.   I may live in Canada, but have spent a LOT of time and have very close friends and business ties to a country that has been overrun by France and Spain a number of times.  I have no respect for them at all. 

 BTW:  BC hit it right on the head with his deGaulle/LBJ post.

 

Like yourself, I'm old enough to recall Vichy being a bad word...

https://www.vichy.ca/

Not skin care...

 

[Wilber]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

It is not the invasions that make me more than a little bit testy about froggy - it was the collaborators.   I may live in Canada, but have spent a LOT of time and have very close friends and business ties to a country that has been overrun by France and Spain a number of times.  I have no respect for them at all. 

 BTW:  BC hit it right on the head with his deGaulle/LBJ post.

Every occupied country had collaborators. Quisling was Norwegian.

[Wilber]

Del

Edited November 14, 2018 by Wilber

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Every occupied country had collaborators. Quisling was Norwegian.

But, none could compete with France for the sheer numbers.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Every occupied country had collaborators. Quisling was Norwegian.

 

Sure...on a limited scale.

Only the Vichy French actually joined the Axis.

[cannuck]

50 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Like yourself, I'm old enough to recall Vichy being a bad word...

https://www.vichy.ca/

Not skin care...

 

Amazing how the idealism and revisionist history stuff melts away with the passing years.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

Amazing how the idealism and revisionist history stuff melts away with the passing years.

 

So one has to remember that France's Jews were generally rounded-up by their own countrymen...and shipped East.

[Wilber]

The Frenc resistance was also the largest of any occupied country except maybe Russia. Joined the Axis? They made peace as best they could at the point of a gun.  The Vichy French were conflicted, that’s why they were a pushover in North Africa. Lots of people from occupied countries served in German units.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

The Frenc resistance was also the largest of any occupied country except maybe Russia. Joined the Axis? They made peace as best they could at the point of a gun.  The Vichy French were conflicted, that’s why they were a pushover in North Africa. Lots of people from occupied countries served in German units.

 

You're free to defend Vichy France for their actions during the war. Poor guys...at the point of a gun, you say?

[Wilber]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

So one has to remember that France's Jews were generally rounded-up by their own countrymen...and shipped East.

So how does that make them different from other occupied countries? The Franks were likely betrayed by a fellow Dutch person, serveral are suspected.

[Wilber]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You're free to defend Vichy France for their actions during the war. Poor guys...at the point of a gun, you say?

You are free to be a judgmental prick who has and never will find himself in that position.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

So how does that make them different from other occupied countries? The Franks were likely betrayed by a fellow Dutch person, serveral are suspected.

 

Again, you're free to support the actions of Vichy France. 

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

So how does that make them different from other occupied countries? The Franks were likely betrayed by a fellow Dutch person, serveral are suspected.

Again, it is not about cherry picking individual situations to fit your idealistic worldview, but appreciating the proportions that were involved.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

You are free to be a judgmental prick who has and never will find himself in that position.

 

Oooooo....struck a nerve. 

Good.

[Wilber]

19 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Again, it is not about cherry picking individual situations to fit your idealistic worldview, but appreciating the proportions that were involved.

No, it’s about realizing that there were saints sinners and Nazi sympathizers in all the occupied countries.

Did you know there were seven Dutch SS regiments? Sorry, six but two were brigades and two were divisions.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

Edited November 14, 2018 by Wilber

[DogOnPorch]

21 minutes ago, Wilber said:

No, it’s about realizing that there were saints sinners and Nazi sympathizers in all the occupied countries.

Did you know there were seven Dutch SS regiments? Sorry, six but two were brigades and two were divisions.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

 

The SS were indeed international as an organization. And many Dutch did join. But there was no Vichy Holland actively helping the Nazis. The government fled to England w/ the Royals when De Gualle left with the "Free French" (which were mostly elements of the French 1st Army).

 

[Wilber]

The Dutch never had the option of a Vichy style regime.

[Wilber]

You should do a little research on the Quisling government in Norway.

[turningrite]

19 hours ago, Wilber said:

The19th century was a century of colonialism.

The 19th century witnessed the apex of European colonialism, which in historical terms was very brief, but colonialism's eventual destruction was sealed by the reaction to it, which was nationalism. The era is referred to by historians as the Age of Nationalism because of the emergence of nationalism. The implications wouldn't fully be realized until well into the 20th century. The UN Charter, created after WWII, is grounded in the legitimacy of nation states and national self-determination. Globalism is essentially an opportunistic corporate concept that's largely been applied to cannibalize Western jobs and incomes. The vilification of the concept of nationalism by self-styled progressives is both highly selective and naive. The alternative to the nation state model, supposedly some form of global democracy, is so hypothetical and fatuous as to fall into the category of 'be careful what you wish for' because you'll probably get something much worse. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by turningrite

[cannuck]

I struggle with turningrite's point regularly.   While nationalism seems somehow to be a good thing (for the nation involved) the colonial era and nacent nationaistic era resulted in some pretty big conflicts.   While globalism as a governing idea is naiive at the very least, globalism as an economic and geopolitical ideal has some merit.  The recovery of China from its horribly failed experiment with communism (yes, I am more than a little aware that the Chico party still runs the place) it was the whole business of inviting China into the global community that brought all of the bad and good things about it to materialize.  That means..at least at this juncture...no military conflict from colonialist ambitions.  Similarly NoKo may well get into step from the genuine capitalist pig Trump "globalizing" NoKo into becoming a lot less nationalistic.

I don't like the "progressive" interpretation of globalism, and I don't fully agree it is a corporate agenda driven thing, but I like it a lot better than returning to the colonialist/nationalist military struggles that defined much of the 20th century.

[DogOnPorch]

40 minutes ago, Wilber said:

You should do a little research on the Quisling government in Norway.

 

Why? Do you think I've never heard of Quisling?

Anybody with some history knowledge knows two things about Norway and Nazis...

1. Norway never took-up arms against the Allies...other than SS recruits sent to Russia.

2. Reichskommissar Josef Terboven was the real boss in Norway. A German. Not ol' Vidkun...

[Wilber]

33 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Why? Do you think I've never heard of Quisling?

Anybody with some history knowledge knows two things about Norway and Nazis...

1. Norway never took-up arms against the Allies...other than SS recruits sent to Russia.

2. Reichskommissar Josef Terboven was the real boss in Norway. A German. Not ol' Vidkun...

 

Because you seem oblivious to the fact there were other puppet governments.

Vichy France never took up arms against the allies, Vichy units did defend French territories in Africa when they were invaded, then they joined the allies.

You act like Vichy France was all of France when around a half million were part of the French resistance. You want to dumb history down to a simplicity that never existed.

[Wilber]

49 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I struggle with turningrite's point regularly.   While nationalism seems somehow to be a good thing (for the nation involved) the colonial era and nacent nationaistic era resulted in some pretty big conflicts.   While globalism as a governing idea is naiive at the very least, globalism as an economic and geopolitical ideal has some merit.  The recovery of China from its horribly failed experiment with communism (yes, I am more than a little aware that the Chico party still runs the place) it was the whole business of inviting China into the global community that brought all of the bad and good things about it to materialize.  That means..at least at this juncture...no military conflict from colonialist ambitions.  Similarly NoKo may well get into step from the genuine capitalist pig Trump "globalizing" NoKo into becoming a lot less nationalistic.

I don't like the "progressive" interpretation of globalism, and I don't fully agree it is a corporate agenda driven thing, but I like it a lot better than returning to the colonialist/nationalist military struggles that defined much of the 20th century.

It's turned into a black and white world, a world of opposites. You are either an isolationist nationalist or want world government. There is no middle ground anymore. 

[DogOnPorch]

28 minutes ago, Wilber said:

 

Because you seem oblivious to the fact there were other puppet governments.

Vichy France never took up arms against the allies, Vichy units did defend French territories in Africa when they were invaded, then they joined the allies.

You act like Vichy France was all of France when around a half million were part of the French resistance. You want to dumb history down to a simplicity that never existed.

 

You're free to believe the Vichy French didn't take-up arms against the Allies. 

Ask a Frenchman what he or his family members did during the war: joined the Resistance...of course.

As for your cherry picked number of resistance fighters ...perhaps after D-Day...when it looked like the Krauts were on the run.

[turningrite]

37 minutes ago, Wilber said:

It's turned into a black and white world, a world of opposites. You are either an isolationist nationalist or want world government. There is no middle ground anymore. 

This, unfortunately, is the dichotomy preferred by self-styled progressives, including our own darling PM. They want you to believe that the only alternative to globalism is isolationist nationalism. They shill for an agenda the consequences of which they either don't understand or won't admit, but if it succeeds democracy will be lost.

Edited November 14, 2018 by turningrite