Is Canada sick?

[Cameron]

This topic has been rolling around in the head for some time now, so I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to give my views on the country that is slipping away from us everyday.

Canada used to be a proud country, a country that fought diligently in both world wars that stood for something great and beautiful. But I see that slipping away now a day. I see Canada become less and less of the country that it used to be.

Canada had a problem, it's too gay. And not the gay as in homosexual, but gay in the terms of becoming a weak country, the way we do things and deal with problems, we're too "light in the loafers". I see our values slipping away and we are ever so becoming a country that is loosing its place in the world.

I can see that there is a problem that not only stems in small towns and cities, but directly flows downstream to Ottawa and to the lack of leadership in this country.

Paul Martin and the Liberals are not doing a good job of leading this country. There is too much shit that they are dealing with, too many problems too many stupid people in their party. This country needs to get rid of them and get itself back on track to better itself.

I can see that things are starting to become tense; everything is on a knife edge. The justice system, the military, the health care system, etc. etc. etc. It's a whole shit bag of problems that are not being addressed by Paulie and Co. We are loosing our sense of responsibility our sense of honor that we once had. We are afraid to stand up for what's right because it may be politically incorrect. Well I think that not standing up for what's right IS politically incorrect. I don't even like being politically correct.

Pathetic MPs that don't know their ass from their mouth, MP that do more harm than good. Carolyn, stop jumping on that doll, it's pissing the US off...and they are WELL within arms reach.

It seems like we are just starting to have these problems with the US on trade disputes. Maybe that's because Canada is stupid. Maybe it's because we need to grow up and start acting like a real country and not this retarded grouping of idiots that can't make a decision if we had a gun to our head. Anti-Americanism needs to stop as well; there is no need of it. What are they doing that's so bad? Finishing up what they should have done in 1991?? Just because they have more money and opportunities that us is no reason to get mad and spit on them. Canada has a backwards system anyways, punishing people for making money and opportunities with high taxes and a dog shit tax system. It needs to change, now.

Steven Harpers hidden agenda, what hidden agenda? What about the Liberals or the NDP's? The Liberals have had enough problems with agendas over the years that I think they are trying to pass the buck, but no ones grabbing. Canada will NOT lye down and give in to the US if and when they are elected. Things will probably get better when they get in, and we can stop is wasting away state that we are in. The Conservatives don't have a hidden agenda, and if they did it probably would be better that the agenda we are following now.

But foremost Canada needs to straighten up and get its act together. We need to stop being afraid of new things and change that is controversial. Canada needs to grow some balls and go to the gym. We need to stop worrying about "becoming" Americans, because we won't. We shouldn’t waste so much money on stupid programs that do nothing, we should also make the Federal government smaller...give more decision making powers to the provinces...But most of all we need to remember the Canadians that we once were and stop being so gay.

This is just the begining....stay tuned.

[Bakunin]

I agree on most of the thing, Getting rid of the liberal would help alot and having an english prime minister would be a good start.

[August1991]

This is just the begining....stay tuned.

Cameron, the Internet (and this forum in particular) is a good place to try to say what you think. People may disagree or nitpick and you may even get it wrong, but at least you tried.

My quick two cents.

In the car today, I listened to Adrienne Clarkson's voice in Holland and I had a sense of revulsion. Fifty or sixty years or how many years ago, Canadians did what they did.

Today, Canada is all about appearance, symbol.

[Black Dog]

I don't see anything in that initial anaysiis that hasn't already been pushed out by any one of the countless right-wing pundits in Canada to whom th emodest social engineering programs undertaken by Trudeau (the right-wing's Public Enemy Number One) are regarded as naescent communism and any attempt to practice moderation is reviled as weakness. It's mostl;y empty rhetoric, lacking depth and substance.

Canada used to be a proud country, a country that fought diligently in both world wars that stood for something great and beautiful. But I see that slipping away now a day. I see Canada become less and less of the country that it used to be.

In what ways? can you expand on this

Canada had a problem, it's too gay. And not the gay as in homosexual, but gay in the terms of becoming a weak country, the way we do things and deal with problems, we're too "light in the loafers". I see our values slipping away and we are ever so becoming a country that is loosing its place in the world.

Hey awesome! Homosexuality=weakness. Great way to make your point. Not.

Here's a question: what "values" are slipping away? What were we then (in real terms) that we aren't now?

And what's the obsession with "Canada's place in the world"? To me, that lamenty often sounds like longing for a simpler time when Canada was a vassal of Imperial Britain, which gave us the illussion of strength and influence. Really, I think most people who complain about Canada's image are really hankering for a return to simpler times when our powerful friends made us feel important by proxy (which is why those same folks usually want closer intergration with the U.S.A.)

Paul Martin and the Liberals are not doing a good job of leading this country. There is too much shit that they are dealing with, too many problems too many stupid people in their party. This country needs to get rid of them and get itself back on track to better itself.

No Liberal defender I, but seriously, what's the alternative? If you look at polls and surveys analyzing Canadians' values show that the one party most in step with Canadian value sis the NDP, yet they are derided by the media and homegrown punditocracy as one step above Fidel Castro. Instead the only other real alternative is the Conservatives who aren't all that differnt from the Liberals.

Paul Martin and the Liberals are not doing a good job of leading this country. There is too much shit that they are dealing with, too many problems too many stupid people in their party. This country needs to get rid of them and get itself back on track to better itself.

Agreed, which is why government needs to address the democratic defecit in this country.

I can see that things are starting to become tense; everything is on a knife edge. The justice system, the military, the health care system, etc. etc. etc. It's a whole shit bag of problems that are not being addressed by Paulie and Co. We are loosing our sense of responsibility our sense of honor that we once had. We are afraid to stand up for what's right because it may be politically incorrect. Well I think that not standing up for what's right IS politically incorrect. I don't even like being politically correct.

Again, where's the substance? There's plenty of real problems to contend with (you mentioned some, such as health care), but this talk of "honor" and "standing up for what's right" are just empty platitudes.

Pathetic MPs that don't know their ass from their mouth, MP that do more harm than good. Carolyn, stop jumping on that doll, it's pissing the US off...and they are WELL within arms reach.

Parrish was booted from caucus, and I seriously doubt the U.S. was affected by her grandstanding. I would wager that even the most ardent beltway insider would be able to recall any of Parrish's stunts, let alone Parrish herself.

It seems like we are just starting to have these problems with the US on trade disputes. Maybe that's because Canada is stupid. Maybe it's because we need to grow up and start acting like a real country and not this retarded grouping of idiots that can't make a decision if we had a gun to our head.

Okay here's where things get really dumb. Trade disputes between Canada and the U.S.A are nothing new. However, NAFTA was supposed to curtail them, yet the U.S. continues to kow-tow to domestic special interests at the expense of trade. It's the Americans who've consistenly ignored WTO rulings on softwood lumber, it's the Americans who listened to the beef and cattle lobbys to keep the border shut. It has FA to do with our attiuides and everything to do with the longstanding strain of protectionism running through American political life.

Anti-Americanism needs to stop as well; there is no need of it. What are they doing that's so bad? Finishing up what they should have done in 1991?? Just because they have more money and opportunities that us is no reason to get mad and spit on them.

Well, mounting a massive misinformatuion and proaganda campaign to paint a weak and devestated country as a grave threat (despite evidence to the contrary) and subsequently invading and occupying said country with little regard for its citizens or planning to help get them back on their feet is pretty bad. How about embarking on a path of global hegemony, a rejection of multilateralism, highly selective support for democracy? I could go on, but your contention that "we're just jealous" is Colonel Klink logic. "I see nozink...."

Canada has a backwards system anyways, punishing people for making money and opportunities with high taxes and a dog shit tax system. It needs to change, now.

I agree, but I suspect we have very different ideas about how to reform the tax system.

Steven Harpers hidden agenda, what hidden agenda? What about the Liberals or the NDP's? The Liberals have had enough problems with agendas over the years that I think they are trying to pass the buck, but no ones grabbing. Canada will NOT lye down and give in to the US if and when they are elected. Things will probably get better when they get in, and we can stop is wasting away state that we are in. The Conservatives don't have a hidden agenda, and if they did it probably would be better that the agenda we are following now.

I don't think Harper has a hidden agenda. It's just that his agenda as it stands isn't all that appealing.

[August1991]

Far be it from me to defend another's point of view, but heck, this is the anonymous Internet where I can say what I want.

BD, I think you're seriously missing Cameron's point. And I'll start here:

Hey awesome! Homosexuality=weakness. Great way to make your point. Not.

I don't think Cameron meant to say that Canada was becoming more effeminate and less virile. (The association between gays and weakness has always struck me as bizarre, but I digress.)

I think Cameron's point is that Canada no longer has strong values, it has weak values. Canada changes its values according to the current social science theory. As Jean Chretien said in Philadelphia, "We put equality rights in the Charter and we never thought it would lead to this. But it has." Well, where will it lead next? (Most Canadians were born into a country without any Charter. Many Canadians disagree even with the principle of a Charter.)

Canada used to be a proud country, a country that fought diligently in both world wars that stood for something great and beautiful. But I see that slipping away now a day. I see Canada become less and less of the country that it used to be.

In what ways? can you expand on this

I think Canadians, before, would have stood up if they saw injustice. Now, Canada will voice its opposition.

There's something deeper here. A Canadian passport abroad used to mean something. That's less true now. Our reputation has changed.

I can see that things are starting to become tense; everything is on a knife edge. The justice system, the military, the health care system, etc. etc. etc. It's a whole shit bag of problems that are not being addressed by Paulie and Co. We are loosing our sense of responsibility our sense of honor that we once had. We are afraid to stand up for what's right because it may be politically incorrect. Well I think that not standing up for what's right IS politically incorrect. I don't even like being politically correct.

Again, where's the substance? There's plenty of real problems to contend with (you mentioned some, such as health care), but this talk of "honor" and "standing up for what's right" are just empty platitudes.

Substance? What happened with Canada's military in Somalia? What is happening in hospital emergency rooms? Why do Canadians accept this so easily? Why do so many Canadians feel silenced in their workplaces because of so-called "political correctness"? In my experience, Canadians are civilized people. This "political correctness" is an abuse of our civilized sense. I recall the Yvette reaction in 1980. This is what happens when "reality" hits "political correctness".

There is a real world, BD. There are consequences to choices. Forcing people to use new words does not change the real world.

Okay here's where things get really dumb. Trade disputes between Canada and the U.S.A are nothing new.

Canada-US. Canadians once could hold their head high before all Americans. I recall once meeting a Russian and an American (a Republican). Both agreed WW II (Great Patriotic War) started in 1941. I explained the Canadian view.

Now, some Canadians are "proud" when an MP calls Americans "bastards". Canada has been reduced to writing graffiti.

More pertinently, there was a time BD, it may be hard for you to imagine, when Canada chose its own way and Canadians did not think about Americans so much. America was not the centre of the universe. The US president was just another politician. Here today, gone tomorrow. But Canada was here for sure.

There was a time when English Canadians knew that Canada was a real place that meant something. I think that Cameron means to say that those days are gone.

BD, your anti-US rant and comments on Harper's "hidden agenda" really, really miss the point. It has nothing to do with this at all.

----

I happen to like Italian and Russian pop music. They're like British tabloids, totally devoid of substance. Pure fun.

Modern Canada? Outside of meal times, too often, the CBC offers up bad pop music with a Canadian connection and presents it as a definition of a country: English Canada.

I do not mean to blame the CBC for this state of affairs. But Canada did not used to be like this.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Now that's someting we're not used to ... a post from August that makes things less clear.

I find the vagueness of both Cameron's and August's complaints makes it difficult to make sense of the content of their objections. To some, it seems that giving effect to a familiar and essential principle of our culture (equality bfore the law) is somehow a betrayal of our traditions. This is incomprehensible to me. To some, it seems, Canada is spineless and irrelevant EXCEPT WHEN, we stand up for ourselves against unreasonable demands from the most powerful country the world. Then we are arrogant.

You know what becomes obvious from all this? To some, Canada can do no right.

[Black Dog]

I think Cameron's point is that Canada no longer has strong values, it has weak values. Canada changes its values according to the current social science theory. As Jean Chretien said in Philadelphia, "We put equality rights in the Charter and we never thought it would lead to this. But it has." Well, where will it lead next? (Most Canadians were born into a country without any Charter. Many Canadians disagree even with the principle of a Charter.)

I get that's his point, I just object to the way he put it.

He said:

Canada had a problem, it's too gay. And not the gay as in homosexual, but gay in the terms of becoming a weak country, the way we do things and deal with problems, we're too "light in the loafers".

Terms like "gay or "light in the loafers" unquestionably used to secribe (and , particularily in the second case, deride) homosexuals. You can't just decide to divorce a word from its popular usage.

Actually it's not even that aspect so much as its just bad writing. If you think Canada is weak and indiscisive, just say so.

I think Canadians, before, would have stood up if they saw injustice. Now, Canada will voice its opposition.

I remember one moment that reallly made me proud: two years ago, I joined thousands of Canadians in the streets to protest the United States' war on Iraq. We stood up for what we beleved in and what was right and that was a key factor in preventing any significant involvement by our government in that debacle, despite the caterwauling from the right wing.

My point here is that I would love it if the Canadian government would represent the strong views of the people of this country. I do, however, find it ironic that the views of the people here tend to run counter to those who bitch the most about Canada's weakness.

Substance? What happened with Canada's military in Somalia? What is happening in hospital emergency rooms? Why do Canadians accept this so easily? Why do so many Canadians feel silenced in their workplaces because of so-called "political correctness"? In my experience, Canadians are civilized people. This "political correctness" is an abuse of our civilized sense. I recall the Yvette reaction in 1980. This is what happens when "reality" hits "political correctness".

There is a real world, BD. There are consequences to choices. Forcing people to use new words does not change the real world.

You know how to make people care? Give them an alternative. Give them a reason to believe their government is actually making things better instead of just not making things worse. Right now, the Canadian political lanscape is essentially fractured into two main parties, neither of whom is capable of firing people's imaginations with anything creative that might actually make things better. Factor in an electoral system that ensures more than half of voters' ballots are wasted, and natutrally people will be cynical.

I also fail to see how people's low expectations have anything to do with political correctness. If anything, the relentless assault on our cherished institutions that started in the 1980's have shown us that the government is not interested in working for us. We've become so inured to the derth of political vision in this country that corruption and scandal now just seem par for the course.

More pertinently, there was a time BD, it may be hard for you to imagine, when Canada chose its own way and Canadians did not think about Americans so much. America was not the centre of the universe. The US president was just another politician. Here today, gone tomorrow. But Canada was here for sure.

If you lot were interested in anything mor ethan sloganeering you'd notice that the current obsession with teh U.S. stems not from some sea-change in Candian life, but is a reaction to the changes down south. Whereas before we had a cordial, though sometimes uneasy, relationship with America, that all changed with the rising tide of bellicosity, belligerance and arrogance that accomapnied the rise of the current regime, a adminsitration who's priorities are diametrically oppossed to the views of Canadians. I'm sure if the tide were to shift, relations would quickly normalize.

BD, your anti-US rant and comments on Harper's "hidden agenda" really, really miss the point. It has nothing to do with this at all.

Uh...no. Thos epoints merely illustrate how specious the initial post was. Ignoring key facts about trade disputes to support the view that we've somehow pissed off the Yanks (as oppossed to the reality of protectionist trade policies) is just silly.

In any case, I hear a lot of sizzle, but can't see the steak. It would make a helluva lot morse sense if y'all could produce some examples and offer some practical solutions.

[cybercoma]

Now that's someting we're not used to ... a post from August that makes things less clear.

I find the vagueness of both Cameron's and August's complaints makes it difficult to make sense of the content of their objections.   To some, it seems that giving effect to a familiar and essential principle of our culture (equality bfore the law) is somehow a betrayal of our traditions. This is incomprehensible to me.  To some, it seems, Canada is spineless and irrelevant EXCEPT WHEN, we stand up for ourselves against unreasonable demands from the most powerful country the world.  Then we are arrogant.

You know what becomes obvious from all this?  To some, Canada can do no right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an odd twist of events, I actually agree with Sweal.

I do agree with Cameron that our country is becoming more insignificant in world affairs by the hour (mostly due to our lack of being able to uphold our end of NATO, nor be able to do anything miltarily without getting on our knees for the US); however, the trade dispute thing is just absurdity.

Our country is being bent over by the United States imposing bans and charges that are illegal...and our farmers are losing out to an american subsidized industry (subsidies from the US government? Don't they preach against those? Yes...yes they do, yet here we are).

Thinking we should just kick back with our feet up and allow them to hold our economy hostage is pure unbridled stupidty.

Cameron calls us "gay" in one sentence for not defending ourselves and standing up for our values, then you turn around and say we need to give in to the will of the United States.

Which one is it?

[I miss Reagan]

Attention Cameron:

Good post. (Sorry everybody, I skipped your posts.) I'm glad someone posted this. I had the same feelings as I listened to the ceremonies in the Netherlands. It made me sad to hear the lip service our politicians give 'praising the sacrifice of our best citizens' while doing the complete opposite in their actions by refusing to live by the promise: "Never Again". It really is sad to see how this country has slipped into neutrality. Unwilling to stand for anything and opposing those who do stand for what's right. We are slowly becoming France.

[Guest eureka]

Try CBC 2, August! You will hear much more than "Pop," and with no "English" slant.

[cybercoma]

Try CBC 2, August! You will hear much more than "Pop," and with no "English" slant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Especially, on friday (or is it saturday...hmm) when they play their insane ambient techno craziness.....

[Black Dog]

It made me sad to hear the lip service our politicians give 'praising the sacrifice of our best citizens' while doing the complete opposite in their actions by refusing to live by the promise: "Never Again".

I find the uniquely right wing equation of military strength and national vitality to be a bit odd. It seems these folks look back at historic moments liek World War 2 with a kind of wistfullness, as though those were better times. I guess the passing 60 years has a way of making the realities more distant, especially those for who weren't there. I can't speak for veterans, but I doubt many would look back with fondness for the slaughter that was that war, a war we joined because our contribution was needed, not because we wanted to show our strength. To compare the Canada of the 21st Century to the Canada that stood against the legitimate threat of fascism is ridiculous.

It really is sad to see how this country has slipped into neutrality. Unwilling to stand for anything and opposing those who do stand for what's right.

What's wrong with neutrality? I think such a policy would greatly benefit Canada and boost its reputation as an honest broker. Better that than to be regarded as a lapdog, like Britain.

We are slowly becoming France.

Wine for lunch? Naps? Brilliant food? Shorter work weeks? Sign me up.

Seriously though: what are you basing this comparison on?

[I miss Reagan]

I find the uniquely right wing equation of military strength and national vitality to be a bit odd. It seems these folks look back at historic moments liek World War 2 with a kind of wistfullness, as though those were better times. I guess the passing 60 years has a way of making the realities more distant, especially those for who weren't there. I can't speak for veterans, but I doubt many would look back with fondness for the slaughter that was that war, a war we joined because our contribution was needed, not because we wanted to show our strength. To compare the Canada of the 21st Century to the Canada that stood against the legitimate threat of fascism is ridiculous.

I find it uniquely left wing to equivocate and reduce the respect for tens of thousands of dead soldiers to nostalgia. It is quite specious of you (as usual) to imply that myself and other right wingers "look back with fondness for the slaughter" of our veterans. As if we revel in the horrors of war. The truth is we believe in standing up against attrocities and the legitimate present day threat of fascism. For some strange reason the left has decided to side with the Islamo-fascists.

[I miss Reagan]

What's wrong with neutrality? I think such a policy would greatly benefit Canada and boost its reputation as an honest broker. Better that than to be regarded as a lapdog, like Britain.

Boost its reputation? We already had a strong reputation as a country which helped to liberate Europe. An honorable country which significantly contributed to peace keeping around the world. I don't think you lefties here realize how insignificant and ignored we are in the world presently. As far as Britain being a lapdog, it would have been a lot easier for them to join the anti-American bandwagon and stay out of it rather than fight. Integrity my friend.

Wine for lunch? Naps? Brilliant food? Shorter work weeks? Sign me up.

Ya, I wouldn't mind it actually...

[takeanumber]

Using 'gay' as a slur = no credibility for you.

----------

Canada's simpler time featured no voting rights for aboriginals, no Asian immigration, and really unfair divorce laws for women.

I'm proud of how far we've taken our country in spite of the 'traditionalists' who desire such a 'simpler' country.

I'm sure many veterans are proud with how far we've come too. We have a country that is totally the opposite of Nazi Germany.

Their sacrifice is a reminder to us all to keep it that way.

--------

A weakened armed forces is caused, in large part, by a lack of volunteers. I blame the lack of civic duty.

It's not just the schools, and the governments who set education priorities, that is responsible.

I think the parents deserve much of the blame.

[I miss Reagan]

A weakened armed forces is caused, in large part, by a lack of volunteers. I blame the lack of civic duty.

Then sign up. You might get to fly a 40 year old helicopter that may fall out of the sky at any second, you could get stationed in a second hand submarine that could catch fire or fall apart at any moment, you could be sent to Afganistan wearing green camo in a dessert environment making you a great target to the enemy, you could be sent there to drive in possible mine fields in unarmoured jeeps and inadequate equipment. All while being payed just barely above the poverty line. Wooohooo sign me up!

[The Terrible Sweal]

The truth is we believe in standing up against ... the legitimate present day threat of fascism.

The present day threat of fascism is definitely real. It is being hatched daily in Washington and a ranch in Texas.

[takeanumber]

Both of my parents are in the armed forces.

My grandfathers were as well.

And one great grandfather.

Most of my uncles and cousins are also in the armed forces.

Why am I not in the armed forces?

Medical reasons.

Don't lecture me on civic duty. I was missing a parent for most of Somalia and Yugo.

I also had the displeasure of being a military brat under Mulroney. It sucked just as much as under Chretien. So when Conservatives get on their high horse about defence spending, they're just paying lip service.

Nobody cares about the armed forces because nobody cares about the soldiers. They're not willing to pay them for the dangerous work they do. Police officers and firefighters get paid more.

[Newfie Canadian]

Then sign up. You might get to fly a 40 year old helicopter that may fall out of the sky at any second, you could get stationed in a second hand submarine that could catch fire or fall apart at any moment, you could be sent to Afganistan wearing green camo in a dessert environment making you a great target to the enemy, you could be sent there to drive in possible mine fields in unarmoured jeeps and inadequate equipment. All while being payed just barely above the poverty line. Wooohooo sign me up!

I agree with you IMR.

Patriotism and civic duty should come hand in hand with sensibility. We wouldn't go to work for less than top dollar for our profession and cry bloody foul for less than pristine and safe working conditions.

While military service in inherently dangerous, the danger is lessened and more acceptable with proper funding and equipment.

[I miss Reagan]

I also had the displeasure of being a military brat under Mulroney. It sucked just as much as under Chretien. So when Conservatives get on their high horse about defence spending, they're just paying lip service.

Sorry but I don't buy it. Mulroney wasn't the one who cut the military funding by 2/3's or the one who cancelled the new helicopters, or nuke subs...

Patriotism and civic duty should come hand in hand with sensibility.

Totally agree Newf. I'd fight for my country... if my country actually cared.

[takeanumber]

Sorry but I don't buy it. Mulroney wasn't the one who cut the military funding by 2/3's or the one who cancelled the new helicopters, or nuke subs...

The Chretien cuts sucked, but wages were extremely low under Mulroney.

He did relatively little to improve the quality of life for the soldiers.

You know, soldiers are people, and just because they've decided to sacrifice a lot doesn't mean that you can go full tilt and totally exploit them.

Cons are just as bad as Libs wrt armed forces. Nuke subs and new helicopters do absolutely nothing to stock the shelves in military homes, especially ones with children.

Totally agree Newf. I'd fight for my country... if my country actually cared.

So, your patriatism and civic duty is conditional.

Sick.

You've demonstrated my point wonderfully.

[I miss Reagan]

The Chretien cuts sucked, but wages were extremely low under Mulroney.

He did relatively little to improve the quality of life for the soldiers.

You know, soldiers are people, and just because they've decided to sacrifice a lot doesn't mean that you can go full tilt and totally exploit them.

Cons are just as bad as Libs wrt armed forces. Nuke subs and new helicopters do absolutely nothing to stock the shelves in military homes, especially ones with children.

I agree with you number. Paying our soldiers more should be a top priority. You're right they have been exploited by both Cons and Libs.

So, your patriatism and civic duty is conditional.

Sick.

You've demonstrated my point wonderfully.

I'm sorry I've offended you but I'm not sure I want to die for a people who wouldn't value my sacrifice. Nearly 50% of our people can't even make the commitment to vote! That's offensive to the memory of those who died. I wrote and passed the tests to become a pilot for the RCAF but in the end I decided I didn't want to be assigned to a Sea King and die because some liberal wants to spend the money on some useless social program.

[takeanumber]

Congrats Reagan. I had you confused with a typical lip-service conservative. There are tons of those in Calgary.

Many people refused to enter into the RCAF because of the sea-kings, it has been a huge problem, but it's also insulting when a conservative uses the example of the sea-king as though they're actually concerned. The cons only care about the troops so far as it gets them votes with the social cons. Mulroney, and the Western Cons had a chance to make life better for the troops, and they screwed it up. The Libs are pretty bad, but the Cons get the prize for hipocracy.

I don't see increased military spending as costing social programs. I believe that the effective tax rate for corporations, 21%, is a bit too low for all the value they get. They get an educated workforce, low healthcare costs, and in most provinces, great roads. They also get corporate welfare.

I hate government waste.

What I cannot abide is the Conservative plan of deep tax cuts, decreased social services, and increased military funding.

How about a bit more social service, because you know, military families send their kids to public schools and public universities...and since we're not paying them enough, they won't be able to use the private healthcare system.

See: the way I see it is that just because you don't make a lot of money, doesn't mean that you're a worse person. But you listen to Alberta cons talk, and they sound that way. And I take offense. My family earned soooo little. I think my mother, when she started, was pulling under 18 grand a year. It's insulting to imply that we can afford everything.

So, to claw back social programs, and give out deep tax cuts, and then boost military spending, it's the wrong formula.

I want the money spent well, like you. But social spending is not always wasteful spending. A lot of good money does good things through social spending.

[I miss Reagan]

I think you're not giving the conservatives a chance. It seems you're reciting the CBC version of the Calgary Conservatives rather than the real version.

I don't see increased military spending as costing social programs. I believe that the effective tax rate for corporations, 21%, is a bit too low for all the value they get. They get an educated workforce, low healthcare costs, and in most provinces, great roads. They also get corporate welfare.

None of this matters if you don't compete with what other countries are offering. The left doesn't seem to understand that 10% of a $1,000,000,000 pie is far better than 21% of a $1,000,000 dollar pie. You'd think with all the environmentalists on the left that they'd understand sustainability.

I want the money spent well, like you. But social spending is not always wasteful spending. A lot of good money does good things through social spending.

Totally agree. The vocal left would have you believe that conservatives want the poor to suffer and starve. Sometimes there are better solutions to problems than taxing and throwing money at them.

[takeanumber]

Well Reagan, my perception of the Calgary School is not formed on the basis of the CBC. I know the players in the Calgary School personally. As I mentioned, I count some of them as my friends.

That's the great thing about Canada, you have the freedom to be completely and totally wrong -- just like my Calgary School friends.

That said, their policies are well outside the mainstream.

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The effective tax rate in the United States for corporations, when they actually pay them, is around 31%. In Canada, 21%.

We cannot compete with Bermuda, the Cayman's, Nauru, and the Isle of Mann.

What many conservatives do not understand is that a race to the bottom is a race to the bottom. Conservative thought is centred on the individual: any success somebody experiences is entirely owed to the individual. Any obstacle is the fault of the government. This thought excludes any proper communitarian credit. Conservative businessmen are allowed to be successful in part because of their own ingenuity and hard work, and IN PART because of the excellent society we have here, the cost of which is bourned principally by the middle class.

Why do Conservatives believe, in upholding corporate welfare and super-low corporate tax rates, that the middle class should bourne all the expense and some of the benefit while large corporation enjoy all of the benefit and none of the cost?

Sounds like rent-seeking to me.

I'm not out to tax corporations into the ground. They play a massive role in the economy.

I want them to pay their fair share and not free-ride: be it through direct subsidy (credits) or indirect subsidy (unfairly low taxes).

Is that so radical, to expect that corporation pay their fair share? Is it? I think a 10 point spread between the US and Canada is reasonable. Why do they need more pork?