NDP Props up Liberals

[August1991]

Prime Minister Paul Martin could win the support of the New Democrats and avoid a spring election by cutting corporate tax cuts and addressing Ontario's so-called fiscal gap, NDP leader Jack Layton said Monday.

"If he's willing to take some of the surplus, if he's willing to reduce the corporate tax cut and invest it now, then we don't have to have an election," Layton told reporters.

National Post

This is in response to the Tory desire for a BQ/Tory/NDP vote of non-confidence:

Senior Tory sources confirmed yesterday that NDP support for a no-confidence motion is considered politically, if not numerically, essential in order to dilute Liberal accusations the Conservatives are working with separatists to bring down the minority government.

G&M

----

Layton's shopping list does not seem long: raise corporate taxes and give more money to Ontario. (It seems to me that Layton is selling himself cheap.) (I think the Ontario NDP did this to support a provincial Liberal government but then the shopping list was longer.)

Needless to say, this is going over like a lead balloon in Quebec. The NDP had little hope of getting any seats in Quebec and if Layton follows through on this, the NDP will have no hope at all.

How does this play in the West?

I think Layton is playing a dangerous game but then, these are risky political times.

[cybercoma]

I wish I had something more intelligent to say than, "Jack Layton is an idiot," but alas...I'm a waste of bandwidth.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Propping up the Liberals makes sense. I agree the NDP seems to be selling cheap, and I don't think the more money for Ontario bit is very politically savvy.

[Cameron]

Layton's shopping list does not seem long: raise corporate taxes and give more money to Ontario.

Hahahaha, nice one Layton. Thataway to win over Canadians!

[Big Blue Machine]

It hurts the NDp to prop up the gov't because the longer the Liberals are in office, the more confidence they get.

[Conservative1]

If he's willing to take some of the surplus, if he's willing to reduce the corporate tax cut and invest it now, then we don't have to have an election," Layton told reporters.

Reduce corperate tax cuts? Anyone with half a brain realizes that these tax cuts benefit the people not just the coperations. Why would you want to stop this; business doesn't stay around if they aren't allowed to keep any of the money they are making, and with high taxes who would want to locate a business here vs a low tax country if such a choice existed. (and the money saved with national health argument just doesn't cut it if you ask me.)

That's the problem with the NDP, no business sense/common sense. All their ideas sound great and as though they are out to help the 'everyman' yet they simply aren't sustainable in the real world!

[I Miss Trudeau]

Reduce corperate tax cuts?  Anyone with half a brain realizes that these tax cuts benefit the people not just the coperations.  Why would you want to stop this; business doesn't stay around if they aren't allowed to keep any of the money they are making, and with high taxes who would want to locate a business here vs a low tax country if such a choice existed. (and the money saved with national health argument just doesn't cut it if you ask me.) 

Because Canada is already the cheapest place to do business.

See?

That's the problem with the NDP, no business sense/common sense.

That's the problem with Conservatives... too much uncritically accepted "common sense."

[August1991]

IMT, I think Black Dog posted a link to that KPMG study before.

The study noted that one reason that Canada was a cheap place to do business was because of the low Canadian dollar at the time. Sinec the study, the Canadian dollar's rise has eliminated part of the advantage.

The study gave another reason: Canada's low energy prices, electricity in particular.

You might want to think twice about this reason: Canada is a cheap place to set up business because wages are low. Now, what does that mean?

----

The study nevertheless carries a valid point. It is wrong to claim that the Liberals have turned Canada into a socialist state. It is equally wrong to claim that the Conservatives would turn Canada into a Libertarian jungle.

But then, shades of meaning are rarely apparent on Internet debate fora.

[cybercoma]

Honestly, how can anyone take Jack Layton seriously after he and his wife leeched off the system living in geared to income housing?

This whole Peter Pan idea the NDP has, should they ever get elected, will lead to the Peter Principle.

Now, support the Liberals? Why the hell would they choose to back up a party that is being turned inside out with the realization of these scandals?

Seems like political suicide to me, then again...Canadians are apathetic and if history is any indication, we'll continue to reward those who steal from us.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Honestly, how can anyone take Jack Layton seriously after he and his wife leeched off the system living in geared to income housing?

I'm no Layton fan, but this particular toryism is a false ad base canard. That home is in a mixed income developmen whose very point is to bring differebt income levels together in the neighborhood.

As for supporting the Liberals, Layton has no choice: does he want to be responsible for either producing a Tory government, or a pointless election of another Liberal one? No.

The NDP needs to convince people they have a useful contribution to make to public policy, and this minority is their best chance for that.

[Guest eureka]

So you are one of the lies and innuendo pack! Layton did not receive subsidies. He was paying market rents for his home. That is just like tens of thousands of others.

Geared to income housing means only that there are subsidies for those who cannot afford market rents. Others pay the full shot.

That nasty little piece shows what you are all about, not Layton.

[Newfie Canadian]

Well, after recent revelations at Gomery, recent polls, PM PM's recent national address and recent accusations, Layton looks more appealing to Martin than ever.

Martin wants to meet Layton

We Newfies call this any port in a storm time.

[kimmy]

The NDP needs to convince people they have a useful contribution to make to public policy, and this minority is their best chance for that.

Indeed. This crisis gives the NDP a chance to fulfill their promise to the people who voted for them.

I think we all know (realistically) that the NDP won't have enough support to form a government any time in the near future. How many seats they win in Quebec is not of great concern to them. They do need to convince voters in the regions where they do have some support that an NDP vote is not a wasted vote. If Jack Layton can push the Liberals into making the changes he wants, that will be a concrete accompishment that he can take to voters during the next election. If voters ask "Well, I agree with their principles, but it seems hopeless voting for a party that'll never have enough support to make things change," the NDP can reply "Here is something we did last time with our 20 seats in Commons. Give us 20 seats again, or better yet, more than 20, and we'll keep fighting to make this kind of change."

-kimmy

[err]

I don't know how many of you know how we got medicare, unemployment insurance, or old age pensions in this country. Invariably it was a minority Liberal government capitulating to NDP pressure, just like what Layton is doing.

I think Layton has done the best thing for the public, and I can only hope it goes through.

While I'm no fan of the Liberal party, anything is better than putting the Conservative/Reform/Alliance party in power. The Conservative aren't the old Progressive Conservatives.... They're really Reform party in different clothing.

It is interesting to note that the founder of the party that calls themselves Conservatives, Preston Manning just released a report with Mike Harris stating that we should dissolve universal health care....... Anything has to be better than having a chance for this kind of mean-spirited political party getting power in Canada.

[Conservative1]

Preston Manning just released a report with Mike Harris stating that we should dissolve universal health care.......

No it didn't....it called for allowing a 'two track' system, where by a efficient and effective balance could be achieved between private and public sectors and where the most efficient system could prevail. (in both measures of customer care, and cost effectiveness of the program) It does not dictate a system akin to that of the U.S. rather closer to the systems in Japan or possibly Sweeden.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/pdf/CSF-Eng.pdf

[cybercoma]

Preston Manning just released a report with Mike Harris stating that we should dissolve universal health care.......

No it didn't....it called for allowing a 'two track' system, where by a efficient and effective balance could be achieved between private and public sectors and where the most efficient system could prevail. (in both measures of customer care, and cost effectiveness of the program) It does not dictate a system akin to that of the U.S. rather closer to the systems in Japan or possibly Sweeden.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/pdf/CSF-Eng.pdf

Close, but it didn't mention anything about either system PREVAILING over the other.

The report did state that your public insurance would still cover what it covers and that would also pertain to private institutions. Those who have the money could then supplement that insurance, or pay for things outside the typical insured practices.

The report calls for Canadians to have the freedom to decide for themselves where they want to get their healthcare from. It also says that most times you're going to enter into the system through public doctors, clinics and hospitals before you're referred to private facilities if that's what you choose.

This misconception about public healthcare and public health insurance being eliminated really gets under my skin, as I know it does for you.

Really all Mike Harris and Preston Manning called for was the simple CHOICE to be there for Canadians, instead of this system now where the Canada Health Act (1984 -- over 20 years old) makes it illegal to have a choice.

People in Windsor, ON and the surrounding area are already being advertised to, through the Windsor Star, by medical facilities in Michigan. Thousands of people are already being referred to and are going to private clinics in the United States for quicker and better quality healthcare.

The Canadian government doesn't want to allow you that choice though. Preston Manning and Mike Harris' plan would give all of us greater freedom to choose what's best for us, instead of leaving it in the hands of bureaucrats who've made a career out of wasting our money.

[Conservative1]

where by a efficient and effective balance could be achieved between private and public sectors and where the most efficient system could prevail. (in both measures of customer care, and cost effectiveness of the program)

When i said 'most efficient system could prevail' , i didn't mean public over private, or private over public...rather a system combined of the two, sorry for that misunderstanding...

[err]

For years, the Conservative have cried about the inefficiencies of government run operations such as Hydro... They have told us for years that private sector will be way more efficient.

Well, we have privatized Hydro electric facilities in Ontario. And these efficient, private electricity generators get to charge "fair market value". Have you noticed how much higher our electricity bill have been since privatization. Apparently, our electricity price is going to double again during the year. Hurrah for privatization ... if you're a stockholder.

What the right-wing proponents of privatization never seem to mention is that private companies operate solely for profit, and that while they may be able to operate more efficiently than a public system, by the time they add their profit, the privately run system is always more expensive than the public counterpart.... every single time....

[err]

No it didn't....it called for allowing a 'two track' system, where by a efficient and effective balance could be achieved between private and public sectors and where the most efficient system could prevail.

Really all Mike Harris and Preston Manning called for was the simple CHOICE to be there for Canadians, instead of this system now where the Canada Health Act (1984 -- over 20 years old) makes it illegal to have a choice.

What a great idea (sarcasm). Rich people can afford to have a CHOICE to "jump the line" of the private system and get what they need when they want it. Then the pressure is off the public system to provide the same level of service, (such as MRIs), so people don't have to pay as much tax. And the majority of Canadians, middle and lower income ones can either wait or do without.... in a perfect Conservative world.

It would seem to me that the government should try to benefit the majority of its constituents, rather than the just the smaller wealth portion of them. I think that's what Jack Layton is trying to accomplish.

[Conservative1]

Well, we have privatized Hydro electric facilities in Ontario. And these efficient, private electricity generators get to charge "fair market value". Have you noticed how much higher our electricity bill have been since privatization

This is really a provincial matter...never the less. Wow now they are charging a price for electricity that reflects how much it costs to produce! (for a change) The price is capped and regulated by the gov't, those damn dirty evil corporations at it again! The price increases have been marginal at best, and now providing electricity isn't a fiscal drag on the prov. government.

What a great idea (sarcasm). Rich people can afford to have a CHOICE to "jump the line" of the private system and get what they need when they want it. Then the pressure is off the public system to provide the same level of service, (such as MRIs), so people don't have to pay as much tax. And the majority of Canadians, middle and lower income ones can either wait or do without.... in a perfect Conservative world.

Private offerings will lessen pressure on public facilities improving wait times there. As far as less pressure to provide services in the public sector....i think the masses of people who remain using the public system (likely the vast majority) will still be more than able to keep up the pressure on that front! In a perfect Conservative world everyone has access to fast efficient public healthcare, yet they also have the option of going to a private facility if the service desired isn't provided at the local public one, or if they do not wish to wait so long. Hospitals have been referring patients to Detroit area hospitals for treatment from the Windsor area for quite some time....why should they have to go to the states for these services?

It would seem to me that the government should try to benefit the majority of its constituents, rather than the just the smaller wealth portion of them. I think that's what Jack Layton is trying to accomplish.

Jack Layton represents an blatantly socialistic party! How you can support this kind of insanity is beyond me! Socialism truly (as can be proven easily with recent historical facts) only benefits the corrupt individuals administering it, and has been proven not to work!

[Bro]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Layton say he

could tolerate the present liberal corruption,as long as they[the liberals], concede to the wishes of the ndp?

Do we really need another morally lacking party propping

up the one we already have?

[err]

This is really a provincial matter...never the less. Wow now they are charging a price for electricity that reflects how much it costs to produce! (for a change) The price is capped and regulated by the gov't, those damn dirty evil corporations at it again! The price increases have been marginal at best, and now providing electricity isn't a fiscal drag on the prov. government.

You really are a piece of work Conservative1. Charging what it costs ??? I know a great deal about electricity generation in Ontario.

How about hydro-electric facilities, you know the kind where water is used at a dam to make electricity.... It costs about 0.5 cents per kilowatt hour to produce at these facilities. (This is a well established fact.) And companies who were given these facilities for a fraction of their worth by their Tory golfing partners can charge us 16 cents per kilowatt hour in the summer under peak load... but it still only costs them 0.5 cents to make.

I don't know how much you know about economics, but we used to pay 4.5 cents per kilowatt hour for this electricity. The 4 cents wasn't profit, but it came went towards offsetting the cost of the more expensive nuclear energy, keeping the prices down.

One particular example of how this hurt Ontarians was the sale of the 3 Massasagi generating stations near Thunder Bay, Ontario for $340 Million to Brascon. Brascon paid this cost out of 6 months profit.

The net result of this particular privatization was that the Ontario purse saw an additional $340 Million once... And Ontario taxpayer get to pay about $600 Million more per year for the electricity generated from this station.... every year... so in 2 years, we'll have paid over a Billion dollars more for electricity from these Hydro stations alone.

But hurray, hurrah, we don't have to pay that 0.5 cents per kilowatt hour any more in our taxes, when we can pay up to 16 cents per Kilowatt-Hour to Brascon (a division of Great Lakes Energy).

Take your Conservative calculator out of your pocket and calculate how this benefits the Ontario public...

I bet a smart conservative like yourself would rather pay 16 cents to a private corporation than 5 cents to the evil tax-grabbing government...

[err]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Layton say he

could tolerate the present liberal corruption,as long as they[the liberals], concede to the wishes of the ndp?

You are making some assumptions Bro.... I think the corruption was in the previous government....

I'll make no apologies for the Liberals, because I don't like them, almost as much as I don't like the Conservatives (They're both right wing...)

However, I think what Layton said expresses the spirit we would hope to see from all of our parties.... a desire to help the majority of Canadians instead of just Corporate Canada.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Private offerings will lessen pressure on public facilities improving wait times there. As far as less pressure to provide services in the public sector....i think the masses of people who remain using the public system (likely the vast majority) will still be more than able to keep up the pressure on that front! In a perfect Conservative world everyone has access to fast efficient public healthcare, yet they also have the option of going to a private facility if the service desired isn't provided at the local public one, or if they do not wish to wait so long.

Unfortunately all that is utter fantasy (or worse, fabrication).

Creating privately paid parallell services improves service for those who can afford it, at the expense of increased costs in the public system due to (1) competition between the sytems for resources, and (2) lost economies of scale.

[August1991]

Creating privately paid parallell services improves service for those who can afford it, at the expense of increased costs in the public system due to (1) competition between the sytems for resources, and (2) lost economies of scale.

Economies of scale? In health services? What could they possibly be? Are you suggesting that we perform hip replacement on an assembly line?

Your comment about the "competition between the systems for resources" is laughable. The very reason our health system currently suffers is because of the competing uses for rare resources (and the increasing inability of anyone to know how to decide where to devote those resources). Our health system suffers from a lack of prices. Hospital managers and ministry bureaucrats increasingly find themselves in the position of Soviet planners. They are spending hours and hours over spreadsheets trying to figure out what to do.

In any case, Canada already has a two-tier system. Our second, private tier is the United States. (Robert Bourassa was treated in a Maryland hospital for his terminal cancer.)

Since PM PM already prefers a doctor in a private clinic in Montreal, I have no doubt that once in retirement, he will get his hip replaced (if necessary) somewhere in the US. Mulroney, to his credit, was treated in the Hopital St-Luc. I note Harper and his family also go to the same clinics as you or I would. (I'll bet he doesn't have to wait though...)