CON servatives Paid 105,000 For One E-MAIL

[willy]

How is taking 90 doctors out of the public system going to make the public system work better?

This is so simple. If these physicians in a private systems treat more patients they will be reducing the demand on the public system.

Example here in BC the private orthopedic clinics are able to do 4 times the number of procedures with the same human resources as the public sector.

Think about that for a while.

[Guest eureka]

We are not doing well, Aegus, or did you not see my post. We have endured many years of slow growth much as a consequence of Free Trade where large numbers of Canadian businesses have become American controlled. The growth is in the USA.

Incomes have barely moved in Canada since Free Trade, and not t all for the lower half of the population. Hours of work are longer. Investment in Canada has declined. As some economist said a few years ago," Canada is in gentle decline."

Canadians did not approve Free Trade in an election. A minority of the population voted for the Conservatives and the ratification of a deal that was already done and about which they were not informed of the details. A minority voted on the promise of prosperity and higher living standards that did not materialise.

Check the polls of the time. The majority of Canadians opposed Free Trade.

[caesar]

Willy???Example here in BC the private orthopedic clinics are able to do 4 times the number of procedures with the same human resources as the public sector

Nonsense; the wait times for anyone not able to come up with the big bucks for the private clinics are waiting even longer.

[caesar]

Why? To begin with, you have been repeatedly informed that this is not the provincial group and you should be discussing provincial issues there. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I realize Liberals tend to have low IQs, but come now.

Gee so prim and proper re one item; yet no matter the thread all you conservative leaning right wingers want to talk about is whatever your imagination comes up with regarding adscam. Facts not required. Even though there are already too many threads dealing with the same issue about which we have few facts.

[kimmy]

Gee so prim and proper re one item; yet no matter the thread all you conservative leaning right wingers want to talk about is whatever your imagination comes up with regarding adscam. Facts not required. Even though there are already too many threads dealing with the same issue about which we have few facts.

Ah caesar.

If a well-written argument was fine art, like a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh... your messages would be more like that famous painting "Dogs Playing Poker".

There is plenty of evidence. The publication ban on Brault's testimony doesn't apply to the testimony of Gilles Gosselin or Bernard Thiboutot or various Lafleurs or countless others. We have plenty of facts. Even the Liberals themselves seem to agree, as they've filed lawsuits against some of the Adscam participants.

-kimmy

[willy]

This is completely off topic but in a mature way I must say ceasar started it.

Nonsense; the wait times for anyone not able to come up with the big bucks for the private clinics are waiting even longer.

caesar, how can I slow this down enough for you to figure it out.

Private clinic increases the number of procedures being done (they are more efficient and effective)

More patients have been treated.

Fewer people need to be on a wait list

Shorter wait list will speed service

Quick service in healthcare means better patient outcomes

Better patient outcomes reduces costs

Reduced costs provides more resources to patient care

The private clinics in BC do more with less. This is good when you have limited resources and exploding demand. (i.e. the aging population)

Side benefits, the employees at these clinics report higher work satisfaction levels. Patients also report better service. So if the government pays for you to receive this service what is your problem?

The issue is more complex than this but some of the delivery is this simple.

Example of a mixed system:

Knee surgeries done by specialist private clinics

Complex cancer case would best be placed in a public facility (Multiple problems where fee for service does not make sense and I have not seen an economic model that accommodates for expensive complex procedures.)

Global budgets should be a thing of the past and all health institutions should receive resources for providing more care not less.

[Guest eureka]

Unfortunately, Willy, that is nonsense. Private delivery of services takes away resources from public. Therefore, it could have no effect on wait times overall. Since, though, private facilities will do less procedures (tjey must if they are to give better service), the effect on the public system is to increase problems and cause a slight increase in wait times at higher overall cost.

As you say, it is more complex. It is reality, though, that wherever there is private delivery, costs are higher or service is lower. That is the evidence of every health system in the world.

[willy]

eureka, there you have it. Two different views of the world. I am a little Ayn Rand and you are a little Carl Marx.

I would suggest to you that quality and quantity are not apposing forces.

[Guest eureka]

They are without paying a price!

[Argus]

Why? To begin with, you have been repeatedly informed that this is not the provincial group and you should be discussing provincial issues there. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I realize Liberals tend to have low IQs, but come now.

Gee so prim and proper re one item; yet no matter the thread all you conservative leaning right wingers want to talk about is whatever your imagination comes up with regarding adscam. Facts not required.

I would think this would be altogether too obvious. But knowing it's you, I will explain.

Federal politics area -> for discussing FEDERAL politics.

So what's going on in federal politics? Adscam.

Now do you need me to draw you a map, too?

[Argus]

Unfortunately, Willy, that is nonsense. Private delivery of services takes away resources from public. Therefore, it could have no effect on wait times overall.

Resources = Money.

Private health care introduces new money, or in other words, adds resources.

[Guest eureka]

It removes money from the public system and with it resources.

[CAGERATTLER]

I see Willy thinks the private system is the answer.

He also thinks it's cheaper.

I really think he needs to do some research!

[Redneck Yokel]

It does not have to take money away from the public system. The whole theory of a 'private' system is that it will generate its own money though greater efficiency (as is part of capitalism or 'private' economy). More patients served under private system = less patients filling up waiting lists and emergency rooms. There's no proposal to dismantle part of the current system in order to build the new one. The proposal is to have an alternative for those who can afford such things so that those who cannot afford them will be able to move more quickly through the public system.

Private system = support for public system...

[willy]

The proposal is to have an alternative for those who can afford such things so that those who cannot afford them will be able to move more quickly through the public system.

I was not going this far.

I was merely suggesting that government bureaucracies are the least efficient mode of delivery.

Where it makes sense we should use the accountability of investors and the need to maintain contracts as leavers to improve service and access to patients. As long as the government has a monopoly on health insurance and regulates prices the equality issue becomes a side note.

Cagerattler, I have done my research. Check the Kirby Report or the Mazinkowski report. Other case studies can be pointed out.

Primary care initiatives in Alberta right now are working on this model. The most important factor to good healthcare from their research was access and an advocate in the system. They are enabling this by breaking away from a hospital model and setting up more private clinics that have teams of specialist with GP's. In the same day you can get from your GP to the specialist you need with the test done.

Focused surgeries like sports and work injuries can best be handled by private clinics that do just these services.

Cagerattler what makes you an expert on governance models for the delivery of healthcare.

[Black Dog]

Resources = Money.

Private health care introduces new money, or in other words, adds resources

It also introduces increased costs: capital costs, marketing, administrative costs etc.

But hey, let's take this elsewhere.

[Argus]

It removes money from the public system and with it resources.

It takes nothing from the public system. In theory, in any private/public mix likely to be brought into place here, people would continue to pay their normal fees for the public system. Their coverage would then be topped up by whatever private fees they, their union, or their employer voluntarily paid to either government or a private health insurance scheme.

For example, my insurance will pay 80% of the cost of prescription drugs, dental care, etc. that I have to pay. Presumably they would also pay 80% of the cost if I went to a private MRI clinic. That would mean no money taken from the public sector, me being removed from the lineup for a public MRI (thus letting everyone else move up one space), and me getting faster treatment I was willing to pay for.

How does that take resources from the public system?

[Guest eureka]

Of course it takes money and resources from the public system. It is completely illogical, or demagoguic, to say otherwise.

But, as Black Dog says, let's take it to the proper place.

[Digby]

Back a few years ago my sister was suspected to have cancer . She is an executive for a very wealthy Canadian Company . When her company found out she might be ill they put her on a private jet and flew her to a special clinic in the Boston area . She was told no expences was too much .

It turned out my sister wasn't that sick it was just a minor thing .

The point is the rich of this Country already got private health care its just across the border . So whats the difference if they set it up here too .

As far as us peasants its only going to get worse for us , If a woman in my community was to have a baby she would have to drive 150 miles no local hospitals even deliver babies , If you have a heart attack in this town i don't think you stand much of a chance . Health care in rural nova scotia is almost a thing of the past here now .

Maybe if we let our rich set up some private stuff they might some day save some peasants who have a heart attack or something just out of the goodness of their hearts. YA RIGHT but you never know.