My second thoughts on supply-management: subsidies are even worse.

[Machjo]

Supply-management does not affect me directly as a vegan shopper in Canada far as I know. As far as I know, the Government does not subsidies milk products but rather just limits competition. This means that the buyers of milk products bear the full brunt of the cost of milk-production in Canada. If Canada should adopt the US policy of subsidizing milk products, then I would be subsidizing other people's milk purchases even though I don't buy milk products myself. looking at it from the standpoint of user-pay, supply-management far surpasses subsidies both economically and morally.

Should push come to shove, Canada should propose that the US adopt a North-American supply-management system and stop subsidizing its milk products. I'm not saying that supply-management is a good thing, but just that subsidies are even worse and I don't want us to jump from the frying pan of supply-management into the fire of subsidies.

[bush_cheney2004]

Apparently many Canadians near the border do not agree with you, as they are more than willing to drive across the U.S. border to buy a lot more than just dairy.   Consumers in Canada get hosed by many provincial and federal policies that go far beyond milk, and it has nothing to do with morals.

[Shady]

21 hours ago, Machjo said:

Supply-management does not affect me directly as a vegan shopper in Canada far as I know. As far as I know, the Government does not subsidies milk products but rather just limits competition. This means that the buyers of milk products bear the full brunt of the cost of milk-production in Canada. If Canada should adopt the US policy of subsidizing milk products, then I would be subsidizing other people's milk purchases even though I don't buy milk products myself. looking at it from the standpoint of user-pay, supply-management far surpasses subsidies both economically and morally.

Should push come to shove, Canada should propose that the US adopt a North-American supply-management system and stop subsidizing its milk products. I'm not saying that supply-management is a good thing, but just that subsidies are even worse and I don't want us to jump from the frying pan of supply-management into the fire of subsidies.

I don't think that's right.  American dairy exports have a large tariff added to them when they come in to Canada.  I believe it's over a 200 per cent tariff.  

[Machjo]

2 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

I don't think that's right.  American dairy exports have a large tariff added to them when they come in to Canada.  I believe it's over a 200 per cent tariff.  

I dislike tariffs but I still prefer a tariff to a subsidy. If I don't buy milk, then I don't pay the inflated price of milk; and if I don't import milk, then I don't pay the tariff either. In other words, supply-management and tariffs, for all of their ills, do have at least one virtue: they're more user-pay than subsidies and at least give me a choice of whether I want my money to go to it or not. If the government subsidizes the milk industry, then my taxes subsidize my neighbour's milk consumption whether I buy milk or not and so I lose all control over where my money goes then. That's why for all of their ills, supply-management and tariffs still surpass subsidies, both economically and morally.

[Machjo]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Apparently many Canadians near the border do not agree with you, as they are more than willing to drive across the U.S. border to buy a lot more than just dairy.   Consumers in Canada get hosed by many provincial and federal policies that go far beyond milk, and it has nothing to do with morals.

I have no issue with Canadians crossing the border to buy milk since I'm not paying for it. Actually, US taxpayers ought to be seeing red at the fact that their taxes are subsidizing Canadian cross-border-shoppers' milk consumption.

The moment the Government of Canada subsidizes it, then my taxes are subsidizing someone else's milk purchase whether I buy milk or not. That's why subsidies are even worse than supply-management and tariffs.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I have no issue with Canadians crossing the border to buy milk since I'm not paying for it. Actually, US taxpayers ought to be seeing red at the fact that their taxes are subsidizing Canadian cross-border-shoppers' milk consumption.

The moment the Government of Canada subsidizes it, then my taxes are subsidizing someone else's milk purchase whether I buy milk or not. That's why subsidies are even worse than supply-management and tariffs.

 

But American consumers do not spend their time wondering how much milk or eggs cost in Canada.   There is no "seeing red" over subsidies for Canadian bargain hunters....I cannot think of anything that I would cross the Canadian border to buy at greater advantage than consumer goods for sale in the USA.   Canada can't even figure out free trade between provinces, let alone with other nations.

 

 

[Machjo]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But American consumers do not spend their time wondering how much milk or eggs cost in Canada.   There is no "seeing red" over subsidies for Canadian bargain hunters....I cannot think of anything that I would cross the Canadian border to buy at greater advantage than consumer goods for sale in the USA.   Canada can't even figure out free trade between provinces, let alone with other nations.

 

 

I'd rather my taxes not go to subidize my food purchases and instead just pay more for my food than to have my taxes subsidize food that I myself might not even buy? canadian milk is more expensive than US milk in part because of supply-management and tariffs, but also in part because the US subsidizes its milk. I do not want my taxes to subsidize your milk consumption. You want to buy it, pay for it yourself. I can support ending supply-management and even tariffs, but not in exchange for subsidies. In fact, one of the few virtues of Canada's present system is that my taxes don't subsidize the milk my neighbour buys and I want to keep it that way.

[Machjo]

2 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

I don't think that's right.  American dairy exports have a large tariff added to them when they come in to Canada.  I believe it's over a 200 per cent tariff.  

It's Canada imposing that tariff, not the US. On the condition that Canada not subsidize its milk industry, I can support getting rid of milk tariffs.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I'd rather my taxes not go to subidize my food purchases and instead just pay more for my food than to have my taxes subsidize food that I myself might not even buy? canadian milk is more expensive than US milk in part because of supply-management and tariffs, but also in part because the US subsidizes its milk. I do not want my taxes to subsidize your milk consumption. You want to buy it, pay for it yourself. I can support ending supply-management and even tariffs, but not in exchange for subsidies. In fact, one of the few virtues of Canada's present system is that my taxes don't subsidize the milk my neighbour buys and I want to keep it that way.

 

That's fine for milk haters, but Canadians pay a price for supply management not only at the retail level, but for international trade.   Canada's tariff and non-tariff barriers are not conducive to free trade.  

Personally, when I buy a gallon (3.8 litres) of milk, I don't give rip about any of such nonsense...I just want the milk.

[Machjo]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's fine for milk haters, but Canadians pay a price for supply management not only at the retail level, but for international trade.   Canada's tariff and non-tariff barriers are not conducive to free trade.  

Personally, when I buy a gallon (3.8 litres) of milk, I don't give rip about any of such nonsense...I just want the milk.

So you don't care how the government spends your tax dollars?

I agree that it would be best to eliminate supply-management and tariffs. I'm just saying that in relative terms, subsidies would be even worse. I have no qualms abut paying less in tax and more in food. That's called the free market.

[bush_cheney2004]

20 minutes ago, Machjo said:

So you don't care how the government spends your tax dollars?

I agree that it would be best to eliminate supply-management and tariffs. I'm just saying that in relative terms, subsidies would be even worse. I have no qualms abut paying less in tax and more in food. That's called the free market.

 

No, not at the consumer point-of-sale level.   Smokers get hosed a lot more than me.  

Milk is cheap....$2.60 U.S./gallon/3.8 litres.

[Machjo]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, not at the consumer point-of-sale level.   Smokers get hosed a lot more than me.  

Milk is cheap....$2.60 U.S./gallon/3.8 litres.

Not as cheap as you think. Remember, your taxes are subsidizing it.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Not as cheap as you think. Remember, your taxes are subsidizing it.

 

Remind me of that often, but I still won't care.   Do you have any idea how big the U.S. federal budget is ?

[Machjo]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Remind me of that often, but I still won't care.   Do you have any idea how big the U.S. federal budget is ?

Do you have any idea how big the US Federal debt is? Canada's Federal debt is big enough without adding milk subsidies. Canada can't afford it.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Machjo

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Machjo said:

Do you have any idea how big the US Federal debt is?

 

Yes....and I am not going to waste my time worrying about the price of milk because of it.

[Machjo]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes....and I am not going to waste my time worrying about the price of milk because of it.

That's why the debt keeps growing.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Machjo said:

That's why the debt keeps growing.

 

OK...does that include chocolate milk too ?

Should I drive all the way to Winnipeg to buy milk that is not subsidized just to protest ?

 

[Machjo]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK...does that include chocolate milk too ?

Should I drive all the way to Winnipeg to buy milk that is not subsidized just to protest ?

 

Of course not. Since your taxes are already subsidizing that milk, you might as well get at least some of your tax dollars back by buying subsidized products. Instead, you should be asking the US government to cut milk subsidies, preferably without having tariffs and and supply-management replace them but do; but even if they do, they would still mean an improvement. You'd pay more for milk, but the government could finally start paying off the debt and maybe even start lowering taxes eventually.

 

Milk is not a necessity of life. It's a luxury. Those who can't afford it should just save up more to buy it or buy a cheaper alternative instead.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Of course not. Since your taxes are already subsidizing that milk, you might as well get at least some of your tax dollars back by buying subsidized products. Instead, you should be asking the US government to cut milk subsidies, preferably without having tariffs and and supply-management replace them but do; but even if they do, they would still mean an improvement. You'd pay more for milk, but the government could finally start paying off the debt and maybe even start lowering taxes eventually.

 

Either way, I am still paying....so what is the point ?     I do not seek revenge on dairy farmers and other people who buy milk.    Just doesn't bug me.

 

Quote

Milk is not a necessity of life. It's a luxury. Those who can't afford it should just save up more to buy it or buy a cheaper alternative instead.

 

That's not how it works in the USA...there are large state and federal programs to deliver dairy products to the poor and women with infants/small children.

The winner of the Indianapolis 500 does not drink an alternative...he/she drinks milk, because dairy is a race sponsor.

 

 

 

 

[Machjo]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Either way, I am still paying....so what is the point ?     I do not seek revenge on dairy farmers and other people who buy milk.    Just doesn't bug me.

 

The point is that then you'd be bearing the full cost of the milk you buy rather than have everyone else subsidize your milk. why are you so against a free market for milk?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

The point is that then you'd be bearing the full cost of the milk you buy rather than have everyone else subsidize your milk. why are you so against a free market for milk?

 

Because there is no free market for milk....it is a commodity that the government subsidizes for farmers, schools, and poor people.   Years ago, people on welfare could get free milk and cheese from distribution centers...now they get WIC payments instead.   Americans are swimming the backstroke in milk, and the illegals who are working on the dairy farms want the subsidies to continue as well.

When I was in kindergarten, we would get a pint of milk (white or chocolate) and a graham cracker.   Thank you taxpayers !

 

[Machjo]

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because there is no free market for milk....it is a commodity that the government subsidizes for farmers, schools, and poor people.   Years ago, people on welfare could get free milk and cheese from distribution centers...now they get WIC payments instead.   Americans are swimming the backstroke in milk, and the illegals who are working on the dairy farms want the subsidies to continue as well.

When I was in kindergarten, we would get a pint of milk (white or chocolate) and a graham cracker.   Thank you taxpayers !

 

Well then, may I recommend Canada be smart about this, drop its tariffs on US milk, and let Canadians take advantage of the generous US taxpayer? There is no point in Canada wasting its resources to produce milk at our own cost when the US taxpayer is prepared to subsidize our milk for us. As long as my taxes don't subsidize milk, I'm fine with that.

 

Heck, I should petition Trump to increase US subsidies on US fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, grains, and legumes and petition Canada to cut all tariffs on same. I would much appreciate it. God bless America!

Edited August 29, 2018 by Machjo

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Well then, may I recommend Canada be smart about this, drop its tariffs on US milk, and let Canadians take advantage of the generous US taxpayer? There is no point in Canada wasting its resources to produce milk at our own cost when the US taxpayer is prepared to subsidize our milk for us. As long as my taxes don't subsidize milk, I'm fine with that.

 

Fine, but other Canadians will start whining about GMO poisons in the milk and cheese.

 

Quote

Heck, I should petition Trump to increase US subsidies on US fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, grains, and legumes and petition Canada to cut tariffs all tariffs on same. God bless America!

 

The U.S. has excess production of milk, not beans and nuts.   Vegans don't matter as much.  

U.S. dairy and farm subsidies go way back to Depression Era programs and USDA subsidies.

[Machjo]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Fine, but other Canadians will start whining about GMO poisons in the milk and cheese.

Just impose quality standards. Done.

[Queenmandy85]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I cannot think of anything that I would cross the Canadian border to buy at greater advantage than consumer goods for sale in the USA. 

Obviously, you are not a discriminating beer drinker.